ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

What the hell kind of world are we living in when an RX can't dust a Golf I ask you.

Flying_solo

iTrader: (7)

A normally aspirated one of sadness.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

LOL....a world with some FAST cars

arutha

iTrader: (2)

I am just hoping Mazda sees the sales of the BRZ and it's variants, and picks a different course. Aside from what we "want" the car to be, which most of us can agree upon, I think the 45-50k sports car can work. Many of us that wanted an RX7, Supra, 300Z when they first came out can now actually afford one...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I agree however, for Mazda to sell such a vehicle in the 45-50k range, the reliability and performance are gonna have to really excel for any average consumer to justify paying that much for a Mazda. The Rx8 left with the rotarys rep kinda in bad shape. A Mazda in that price range is gonna have to have something this country had never had before (like a 3 rotor) to make it seem really special.

ZDan

Low speed corners, seriously-prepped Miata will have the advantage in apex speed. Corvette will have to go slower to rotate the car more and provide more of a straight-line path from apex to track out in order to take advantage of its power. Also, Corvette's front/rear roll stiffness will have to be biased more to the front, compromising constant speed cornering for acceleration on exit.

The faster Miatae have faster apex speeds at turn 3 at NHMS vs. the faster Corvettes, the Corvettes more than make up for it with raw acceleration and speed, though and post quicker lap times. Karts, however, are quicker still in the corners, and are quicker around the track.

Dunno about autoX rules... If catback exhausts are allowed, that would be a MUCH bigger advantage to the FD than to the S2000 (I see tem120 already mentioned this). Anyway, SCCA rules aren't always "right" and are often controversial!

People are meatheads :shrug: I've driven Corvettes, I've driven the FR-S. For me, street *only*, I'd rather drive the FR-S every day.

I'm probably more qualified than most to comment on how much fun or how irrelevant a 130mph-in-the-1/4 car is on the street. To me, on the street, it's irrelevant. Which is why I drive my S2000 more on the street.

I'm used to a 5.5:1 car, and my 12:1 S2000 is more fun to drive on the street in populated areas. It's more engaging and more responsive to steering input and just plain easier to drive. On the track, my stock s2000 is too slow and too wallowy, so 5.5 FD by a LONG shot!

On the track, I agree. On the street, you *really* have to be driving like an *** to utilize more than 250hp or so in town. On backroads, I'm more about carving corners at a fastish 6-7/10ths pace and not necessarily putting down a lot of power on exit rather than launching out of them at max acceleration and braking hard for the next one.

Not driving at 9.5-10.5/10ths (I'm never anywhere NEAR that on the street, even deserted backroads), it just seems pointless to me to bother with max accel and max braking. "Gunning it in 2nd" on the street, out of the blue, is to me a bit silly. Like those Harley guys with straight pipes, who instead of maintaining their speed they have to let off, then GUN IT, let off, GUN IT ad infinitum. Ridiculous.

I still say it's easier to add significant power than it is to subtract significant weight. I would rather they come up short on the power side than end up overweight.

We fantasize about a 2600 lb. 350-400hp car, but in reality that car will more than likely end up weighing 3000 lb. minimum. I'd rather have 2600 lb. and 250hp.

For my *street* car, I want it to be small, lightweight, rwd/irs, well-balanced, and to have decent (not necessarily obscene) power.
On the track, where I can and will USE it, I want power as well as the other things. Enough that I can light up the rear tires at the end of the longest straight (M. Donohue)!

For the next RX-7, I know you rich guys are fine with it costing $45k, $60k, upwards of $75k even. I'm not spending that much, and neither are most sports car enthusiasts. Do they want it? Yeah. Can they afford it? Not so much...

I'd like to see a LOT of marques return to the old Porsche and Lotus ideals of small size, simplicity, and light weight, rather than the continuing trend of adding 100-200 lb. or so and piling on the horsepower.

Obviously I'm in the minority!

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I don't know where you live, but I'd say power is actually more fun/usable on the street than "handling".

To really use a fantastic handling car, you've got to have a nice twisty country road/highway—which are rare in my area, and there's still enough population that I legitimately worry about what's around the bend that I can't see until it's too late—another car, a guy checking his mail, a kid chasing a ball. It just doesn't make sense to take that risk. That's WHY I go to the track. It would be a rare occasion that there's little enough traffic and good enough sight lines that I could string more than a corner or two together.

Conversely, a good highway roll or stoplight snort on the gas is loads of fun, and a lot safer frankly given sight lines, ability to avoid trouble, etc.

Never mind that the two aren't mutually exclusive. Some of the best thing about "cornering" is cornering exit—blasting out on the gas, which is decidedly lame in an S2000.

I also don't think anyone's really talking about "obsene" power. That's my friend 1400hp GTR. 350hp is perfectly usable on the street. Hardly a handful or liability. And we're not talking about a $60-$75k RX7 really.—more like $45-50k, which I'm telling you, ain't getting sold with 250hp.

ZDan

Atlanta at the moment. For me, the *quality* of the handling is more fun/usable on the street. I.e., I don't have to corner at .9g to enjoy it. Another reason the S2000 is more fun for me on the street: stock suspension is compromised more for the street than for the track. At the ~.3-0.5g max cornering I normally do on the street, it's more in its element. Up the cornering speeds at the track and it's no longer in its element.

In populated areas, on the street, I honestly don't get much out of straight-line acceleration when I know I'm going to have to slow down before it gets *really* fun. I usually try to maintain a speedy average speed but without resorting to gunning it, and minimizing brake usage.

That's just me...

What I'm talking about primarily when I'm talking about STREET handling is more about what it does at ~0.5g rather than what it does at .9g. I.e., not "really using it". For me, for that usage, the AP1 S2000 hits the nail pretty squarely on the head for me. It feels a LOT stiffer/tauter/more-responsive than a Miata, but isn't punishing in the slightest.

I have to drive responsibly, at reasonable speeds, WAY below the car's limits in populated areas a lot. How fun and responsive does the car feel in that no-risk-taking mode? That is very important to me. Which is why I have two cars. One is more fun on the street, the other is (WAY) more fun at the track.

On the street, I just don't get that. Sometimes I'll accelerate "briskly" from a stop light to try to get my desired lane, but if the guy next to me speeds up I'll usually (usually!) just slot in behind him in the gap he's made rather than "race" him. Maybe I'm just a *****...

For me, on the street, way below 9/10ths, I'm not "blasting on the gas" out of corners anyway.

Where I live, putting down 350hp on the street would attract a LOT of negative attention...

I'm not buying a $45k car any time soon no matter how awesome it is.
Totally agree that 250hp at $45k isn't going to fly.
At $45k the car had better OUTperform the Corvette, while getting similar mileage, and looking better while doing it.
And you can bet that at $45k, a sports car intended to sell in volume (as opposed to Elise/Exige/4C), will *have* to be somewhat bigger and heavier than any of us wants. Because MOST people who have that kind of money to spend are a LOT more interested in having their sports car be "nice" and to have the kind of ride quality that can only be achieved with MASS. A 2600 lb. sports car would feel too kart-like for them.

So, for *me*, for a *street* car that would likely ultimately be turned into a track car years down the road, I would GREATLY prefer to have at least the option for the 2600 lb. ~250hp $30k-$35k base model, with an optional more track-oriented 350-400hp $45k model. If I make a lot of money over the next couple of years, I'd get the fast/expensive model. If not, I'd buy the lower-spec model since it would suit my street-only wants/needs better anyway.

But since it ain't happening anyway, and we may as well agree once in a while:
2600 lb., 350-400hp, $30k-$35k would work for all of us, right?
So do THAT, Mazda

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

Where I live putting down only 350 will make you a joke! LOL

Like ptrhahn said , honestly on most street cars power is more fun then handling .


I live in miami and there is no such thing is a fun curvy road within 1000 miles LOL Which is why I try to make it to DGRR every year I can its like MECCA for us down here LOL

So most people here and there is a pretty big car following down here big market rx7 would miss out on if it doesnt have a decently powerful motor .


i'm happy with my 300 whp fd . Its no 500 HP monster . putting down 10 second passes . But its quick enough to get out of its own way when needed . THis was severely lacking in my previous car my miata which was a BLAST to drive at an auto-x But honestly lacked the grunt on a highway or even the street ..

in the FD when i want to pass someone I can . if I wanna go into a little boost and leave everyonearound me in the dust I can . again its no drag car but its enough to be FUN getting onto the highways is the funnest part . of my daily commute getting to accelerate from 30 mph on the ramp to cruising speed in a couple of seconds . merging into traffic cake.. ( wasnt so in my 100 hp miata ) hah .

My main focus is still handling But having enough power to make the car enjoyable EVERYWHERE I think is important . if they want to sell this car. in today's market

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I disagree in my experience a C5, C6 corvette will go into the corner, be faster at apex and obviously faster at track out than a miata.

I find it interesting that you don't have the same experience even on a tight track but hey at least they manage to run faster lap times.

It's all #s. The kart has more grip (tire larger as a percentage of weight), the kart may have more power (power to weight) so the cart wins.

Re miata thing; The corvette has a much bigger tire (more than twice as much), has much more power (more than twice as much), has more torque (more than twice as much), has better handling from the factory (.90 to .95) now add track rubber and the corvette has an even bigger advantage because the tires are more than twice the size. Whoever is driving the corvette will have a bigger challenge but if a highly skilled driver is ever beaten at any point in any corner by a miata the car is likley broken. Some of the #s above may be off but anyone can recognize that the miata won't be the faster car at anytime any place all things considered.

You believe the S2K is faster and handles better I agree with the SCCA.

That makes me a meathead because I'd much rather drive a corvette (for me it would have to be a c6z though hehe) than a stock S2k, Stock FD and most definitely a stock BRZ/FRS, for driving pleasure. HOWEVER I'm still such a stuck up bastard and have such strong biases about corvettes, mustangs etc... that it would be a big pill to swallow but as I age I get better at swallowing pills and it's really sad but I big reason I DD an FD is just to look at the dang car as walk up to it

Not so much on this forum Lots of us have owned high horse power FDs or other high powered cars and most of us would agree that having anything over 400 rwhp in an FD on the street or in my opinion even on a track is usually a waste but imo on the street or track 375 is more fun than 300 if the car behaves well. Again I'll reference Pete's car which has around 375 and it's AWESOME on the street.

Your FD is broken or something, JK..... I know you have throttle and clutch issues when putting around. Again this is just my opinion but a moderately modded FD with just street coilovers, RB sways, some good rubber, exhaust mods, smic, 1300 secondaries and a tune is soooo much better than a stock S2K and to me it's even better than a cayman S etc....

The good news for both of us is we have found some great DD cars and we are lucky to appreciate and enjoy a nice sports car daily

I'm currently driving my really nice low mileage mostly stock R2 and I checked the weather this morning and there was a chance of snow but clear later in the afternoon. It wasn't snowing this morning so I took the FD, I hate to drive my big truck.

I look at it this way; how can I achieve a nice power to weight in a fun car to drive while justifying the expense. So far the FD works for me and I obviously have a very strong attachment to the car but as I become older, I'm less motivated to work on cars, I'm less patient with it breaking at that track etc.... and I can afford a more reliable car so at some point I will probably switch to a newer car and I will buy it based upon power to weight, FUN, cost, reliability, factory warranty support for track use etc... and so far the corvette keeps looking better and better.

350 in a 3000 pound car won't get it done but saying you aren't willing to give up 400lbs for 100 HP is crazy/kookoo talk. That's like saying you prefer an s2k over a GT3 400 or 425 in a 3000 pound car is perfect and I'd be all over that and that's likely what it would have to be after adding the big brakes, wheels, trans, diff, over all wheel base etc......

I just want a 7 to 1 car that's no more than 3000 pounds

You already own an S2k (10k car) V8 FD (20k car). You can probably afford a new 50 or 75k car no problem if you open the wallet, if you have to barrow then NO WAY.

It's all give and take and there's never been a time in history with better overall power to weight cars on the market so we shouldn't complain but at the same time I just can't see why these cars have to be so damn heavy, where is that 2600 pound 350 HP car?

Oh wait I have one in my garage

I don't believe you are in the minority which is why a 350 HP car that weighs 2600 or 2700 would sell very well if someone would just make the damn car.

If you are referring to you 250 HP car then yes you are in the minority for sure

ZDan

Corvette will have a higher entry speed, will have to brake sooner, will have to rotate MORE near apex, will blast away. Subjective experience will be seem much faster, but a comparably track-prepped Miata will have a higher *minimum* speed at the apex.

Where you getting this "more than twice as much" tire?
Stock vs. stock and track-prepped vs. track-prepped, Miatas have overall tire width per vehicle weight similar to Corvettes, evenly distributed front/rear. Corvette will have LESS tire width per vehicle mass up front and MORE in back.
Advantage in *steady-state* cornering (not decelerating, not accelerating, minimum corner speed): Miata

Irrelevant to minimum cornering speed, when you're neither decelerating or accelerating.

Stock Miata rubber is not as grippy as stock Corvette rubber, and stock Miata suspension isn't as track-ready as stock Corvette suspension.

On the contrary, trackify both cars and it is the Miata that will gain more significantly vs. stock.

A well-prepped Miata will have a higher minimum corner speed in slower corners vs. a similarly well-prepped Corvette *both driven to minimize lap time*.
I would bet you a beer on it
If the Corvette were set up for steady-state cornering over corner exit speed, and the driver were to take a Miata "momentum line", sacrificing exit speed, then their minimum corner speeds could/should be comparable.

I don't have any prejudices about the Corvette. My favorite car when I was a kid, still appreciate them now. Just not exactly my cup of tea in the real world or at the track as it has turned out. I just prefer streeting and tracking cars that are significantly smaller and lighter, irrespective of straight-line speed or lap time potential.

Hoping to address that soon... Ultimately might also go to a TR6060 trans, which supposedly gives a lot better-quality shift feel than the T56.

Sounds good to me

Indeed :cheers:

I'm currently driving my really nice low mileage mostly stock R2 and I checked the weather this morning and there was a chance of snow but clear later in the afternoon. It wasn't snowing this morning so I took the FD, I hate to drive my big truck.[/quote]I'd love to have a stockish rotary FD to go in the collection...

C6 Z06 might be the pinnacle of those ideals.

All B.S. aside, I agree that would kick ***.

That is without fuel, right?

Would be sweeet...

t-von

iTrader: (8)

This is so true. Fast cars duplicate the feelings you get at an amusement park. When a car is fast enough, the acceleration alone will cause your stomach to move upwards within your chest cavity. This creates the slight sensation of falling and replicates those feelings you get at the amusement park. On the street, slow cars like an S2000, BRZ, and Rx8 can't do this. Sports car enthusiast want power 1st and handling 2nd plain and simple. This is the #1 reason all these tanks are selling so well.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

edit

I'll have to post later this came out wrong, I also have trouble with these quote things and need to do a little work

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I've been to a lot of Mazda Club track days, so I've heard the "you, know, a well-driven Miata will be faster in the corners than an RX-7, might doesn't make right, blah, blah, blah" speech a few times in driver's meetings.

I've personally never seen that to be the case—and I'm not Fernando Alonso or anything.

ZDan

I've been on both sides of it. In a "momentum" car having to slow down more than expected for the faster "horsepower" car in front of me, and in the "power" car with the momentum car right on my fricking bumper from corner entry to apex.

If you don't have much power, you will take something close to the broadest radius you can around the corner to minimize speed lost. With a lot of power, your ideal line will be to brake deeper, turn in later with a tighter radius, sacrificing speed in the first half of the corner so that you can have a much broader exit line to allow you to put more power down and gain massive exit speed.

Something like this:

The "momentum line" will look more like the broken blue line, the "power line" will look more like the green line. Power line has a much tighter minimum radius. Forgetting "Corvette vs. Miata" for the moment, consider two cars with equal cornering capability in terms of lateral g's. The car with significantly better power-to-weight will have a lower minimum speed in the corner because its *optimal* line for minimizing lap time will have the tighter minimum radius. Smaller radius => lower speed at the same cornering g's.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Ahh so that's what I was experiencing when I rode with Fritz.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Believe it or not, an FD (or at least a turbo rotary FD) IS a momentum car compared with most other street cars running similar lap times, like Corvettes and GT3s. The day I have a Miata hanging on my bumper through the corners, I may hang it up. I get line theory, but I personally have not seen that speed from a Miata—at least on circuits like VIR, Watkins Glen, or Summit Point Main.

ZDan

It's not black/white, but for sure your 7-8 lb/hp FD is more of a "horsepower" car and less of a "momentum" car than a ~15-20 lb/hp Miata.

Run with the fast Miatas in my club, and you may have to do just that. They will easily run with you up to corner apex, and could tap your rear bumper if they wanted. After that you will of course accelerate away, so they might not run through the entire corner with you.

Then you're not running with particularly well-prepped and/or well-driven Miatae. Or they are just being courteous and not tailgating you into the corner.

The optimal line for a higher power/weight car will have a tighter minimum radius. On top of that, the ideal setup for a low power/weight car like a Miata will be better optimized for steady-state constant-speed cornering, while the ideal setup for a high power/weight car will sacrifice (to some degree) constant-speed cornering for superior drive grip exiting corners. These two factors mean that, given equivalent lateral grip per weight, the "slower" car will generally have a faster minimum speed in lower-speed corners.

The fast Corvette guys in my club wouldn't have any security issues admitting that the fast Miatae and E30 M3s are going faster near the apex of the slower corners. It's nothing to hang up your driving gloves over, it's just a natural fact.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

I don't get this insecurity about fast Miatas either.

There are soooo many Miata racers and parts developed for it that of course they are quite fast through the corners.

Your basic track Miata is 2,200Lbs with 275 hoosiers on 15x10 and off the shelf well sorted revalved Bilsteins. Its common parts, common fitment, common performance and kicks the crap out of an FD in cornering on the level of basic physics.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

Again no time to go in depth. Work is kicking my ***

So I'll agree that right at the apex the miata will be the faster car because of the angle thing but it's a lot slower going in and a lot slower finishing. So for maybe 100 feet it's the quicker car on a fairly tight corner and possibly faster on sweeper as well (at the apex) but not going in or coming out and likely slower the whole way through a big corner.

The track tightness isn't really relevant if the high HP car is driven properly it should still CRUSH the Miata because of the entry and exit speed and I think Pete has enough track experience to know when someone is in a fast miata vs putting around and plenty putt around even in the instructor group. When you are running his lap times at VIR in your car even with all the extra power you have you will be driving over the top of Miata's EVERYWHERE on the track and there will never be a time when one is on your back bumper PERIOD!!!!!!!

I'd also say this is true on that tight little S course at VIR that you drove, my car was running 1.16s at 300 HP, an extremely well driven SM car might run a 1.21. Here's an example from the N course with the THSCC of me driving around in the instructor group on bald tires with very little grip left in them. The majority of the cars are fully track prepped or race cars. Several E30 BMWs which are typically faster than SM cars etc.... With this group pretty much all the cars are road blocks. A well setup corvette is faster than my car. Any corvette having any trouble what so ever with an SM car on any track or autocross it's driver error not because the Miata corners faster, again it may be faster at the apex but from entry to exit it's not a remotely close race no matter how tight the corner is, which is why Pete hasn't seen a Miata on his back bumper in over a decade, ITS/SM or otherwise.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

LOL, no basic track prepped miata I have EVER seen is running 275 hoosiers, in fact in 15 years of going to track I haven't seen that. Yes that miata should barely use the brakes and go into the corners faster than my FD, but I'll drive over top of it when it tries to power out of the corner with those steam rollers on it.

However typical track prepped Corvettes are running 335r and 315f size tires and that's just your normal everyday track rat. Many also run square setups.

I'd love to see one vid of a fast miata (v8 in it, big turbo, hell any kind of engine) crushing other cars, running a TT2 or TT1 times, JUST ONE!!!!!! I know they are out there I just would like to see it

rx7 SE

iTrader: (5)

Having just purchased a '99 miata I figure I may throw in my .02 cents as well. I've had seat time in many great handling cars like 300+ rwhp FD's, Lotus Elise, M3's, M5's etc. I can't say that any of them have handled like the Miata in stock form. It's turn in capability in slow corners would challenge my e46 with Michelin PSS 275's in the rear and would embarrass my FC at the moment. The only thing it lacks in stock form (other than hp obviously) is high speed corner stability, but there are plenty of avenues to address that issue. I've been watching some videos of the 'Touge' in Japan and the NA miata was running times not far from the RE Amemiya FD. Why you don't see more lap record setting miatas on the track in the US, I don't know. I do know, the more I drive this car the less I want to buy an FD...similar handling characteristics, body styling, and the reliability that can match the best of them.

Tem120

iTrader: (5)

I'm not very experienced . Only auto-x'd for about 2 years on and off due to certain issues .

I used to own a 99 miata and infact its a very fun car . and very similar to the FD in many aspects .. except the FD is much more stable at the limit . When taking a turn to hot in the miata the tail comes out quite a bit and quickly .

The FD's will come out aswell , but alot more controllable and you are able to correct before it gets bad . (most of the time)

this makes the FD a winner of the 2 alone , add in the extra POWAAAR and the FD leaves the miata behind .

But Reliability... yeahhhh.. miata takes that cake.

ALSO as far as tracking miatas , I know alot of people preffer superchargers on the miata. I knew a couple of guys who tracked boosted miatas back in the day but they only made 200 whp . I asked one of them why did he not go turbo ? hesaid miatas when tracked tended to kill turbos / and manifolds warping them .

HiWire

One of my track instructors drove me for a few laps in his Miata. That thing turned in hard and fast. A properly set up Miata is pretty wicked in the corners. They'll have trouble on high-speed tracks without boost, though.

I'm pretty sure a bare-metal FD can be made to pull the same kind of Gs, given its fixed-roof chassis. There's no substitute for turbo doritos, properly tuned.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

A spec miata which is going to handle much much better than a street/track prepped miata can't touch a well setup FD in any handling regard.

I've raced an SM and did the SCCA school in an SM back in 2006 and I wasn't ***** footing around. Ran 1.30 laps at summit point and the track record currently is a 1.28.

Just for comparison my FD runs solid 1.18s at Summit and has a 1.17 (pretty easy) in it if I can get my stuff together.