wstrohm

Off topic,

Here is what Mazda will be up against: In 1994 this car was listed for $36000 ($38415 total before tax). We bought it for $29,130 + tax, from a dealer's fleet guy (who gave up his commission since I had bought a Miata from him back in 1990). So in September of 1994, this was a $30,000 car. I don't know how to do the "allowing for inflation" thing, but my guess is that a car of this quality today would be out of many folks' price range.

Anyway, for those who haven't seen an original FD sticker, here's a little bit of RX-7 history. You can't miss the big EPA BS fuel mileage numbers!

t-von

iTrader: (8)

The Rx7 chassis is dimensionally larger than a Miata and has a longer wheel base. So built off the same platform, there is no way you can build a larger car lighter.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Those fuel economy numbers are accurate. Look at the far right below the 25mpg hwy. Depending on how you drive and your speed, you could see numbers in that entire range. Most people overlook that info and only see the BIG numbers. My stock rx7 averaged 13mpg in the city while getting 25 on the highway.

ZDan

Will elaborate later, but now will just ask the question: Do you think there is no difference in the feel and/or responsiveness driving an S2000 on the street like a normal human being vs. driving a Prius at exactly the same speeds? I can assure you that the subjective driving experiences are *very* different...

Bwarrrrrp

Depending on the size difference, I think you would be surprised.

Bwarrrrrp

Sorry, to elaborate, the amount of material that has to go into making an open top chassis rigid is significant. A closed chassis will instantly have the rigidity of double or triple that of a basic open chassis, particularly with the huge pillars cars have these days. Most of the strengthening that goes into making a convertible workable can be removed. The weight is significant.

MisterX

The base Vette back in '92 was the 7's competition. So was the 300ZX TT, 3000 TT, Supra TT (debuted mid '93 though), even the NSX. All were priced higher than the 7, and all the cars made similar weight:power. For pure handling and feel, the 7 was the the clear pure sports car out of the bunch.

And the base Vette now makes mid 400s. So if a 4th gen were to make 250, even if it weighed only 2500 pounds would no longer be competitive with the Chevy; nor would it with the new Supra. Nor the NSX. They've left it behind; left it behind to play with the little girls. You know, the ones who hit a whopping 95 in the 1/4. "Oh, but it'll handle!" To which I say who cares about being one-dimensional, and only concentrating on handling. Their mission must be for the FD successor to do what its predecessor did relative to others in its class - be the best sports car for the money; that means having somewhat similar power levels, not one third less or half as much.

Producing a 7 that keeps up with its class nowadays is not engaging in hp wars. It's called competing. That is, unless they don't have the know-how; which we know is false. No one's calling for a $55,000 530 hp 4th gen 7.
Vette's nice, if you want a car that rides like a touring sedan. Our third gen didn't ride like one, nor was it built on a sedan platform like some competitors. It was a less-compromised chassis than any of the competition. That is part of what they need to stay true to if they want a legitimate contender to today's $50K+ class of cars.

Bwarrrrrp

I'm trying to work out if you can't understand the difference between a 400 hp wankel and a 400 hp 4-5L piston engine or if you are simply ignoring it. The difference can't be ignored. Beyond that I really can't be bothered arguing.

It seems to me that the only people who would want a 400 hp RX7 are FD owners who have been modifying their cars for years, and even then at worst it's a philosophical problem. I would suggest there are a whole bunch of rx8 owners who would love the idea of a lighter, faster, more powerful car to the 8 which would compete with other cars in the 8's class. Chances are 300zx owners made the same complaints when the 350z came out. Look how badly that one failed.

Rxmfn7

iTrader: (4)

^ I dont think anyone is really asking fo a 400+ HP new Rx7. Some of us are just saying that 250 isnt going to cut it. Im not asking for a vette slayer.. but it at least needs to be in the ballpark of its performance. Now with the vette being 460HP and ~3400LB, I dont think its unreasonable to ask for a 350HP rx7 in the 2700lb range. It will at least be able to hang in the straights, but have much superior driving dynamics. I just dont get all the people who are up in arms about a mid 300HP "halo" car for Mazda to have, and act like we're all chest pounding Neanderthals. For ***** sake most 6cyl commuter cars are in the 300HP range nowadays.
Im sure you were being sarcastic bringing up the 350Z.. but even when it came out it had 287HP... in 2003! Now its over 10 years later, its up to 350 and in the next year there will be a lighter and more powerful one. No one here is saying we want a corvette.. its been said earlier that a vette doesnt drive like an FD. But its not because it has more power..

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Good point! That was something I wasn't thinking about.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Speak for yourself buddy LOL! If Mazda built a limited edition $55,000 530 hp 3 rotor Mazdaspeed Rx7 that weighed 2,700lbs, I would be all over it. There would only be 1 car sub 100k that could compete with that rotary monster. And that's the new C7 Z06. That 4th gen would be the superscar bargain of the century. Damn near every performance car manufacturer has three basic offerings of their muscle car. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge all have a v6, base V8, and upper echelon V8 monster to offer their customers. I see absolutely zero problem with Mazda doing the same with a 1.2L 250hp, 1.6L 300hp, and 2.4L 530hp boosted 3 rotor. With those offerings, there isn't a single person on this thread who wouldn't have their rotary needs satisfied.

BLUE TII

iTrader: (9)

The Rx7 chassis is dimensionally larger than a Miata and has a longer wheel base. So built off the same platform, there is no way you can build a larger car lighter.

I'm hoping the RX-7 won't be dimensionally larger since they stretched the MX-5 wheelbase out to the same as an FD.

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Now, now I asked you first... Don't attempt to diverge. So are you going to elaborate on why you don't drive a prius or not?

ZDan

Because a Prius (I have a fair amount of driving miles in my parent's 2nd gen) is about 1/100th as much fun to drive as my S2000 even just toodling around town at the same low speeds in either car. More tomorrow, still weekend!

MisterX

The tiny percent of potential buyers get it, the problem is the masses don't. To them, a 24X making 410 hp is still 50 shy of the Vette's; even if it came in 600 lbs lighter, it's still "underpowered". The car won't be pronounced a success if 2000 people from rx7club step up to the plate over its production run, by anyone's measure.
How much lighter and how much faster than the 8? 250 hp & 2750 lbs is a joke -- it's been done . . . . . years ago (see S2000). 410hp 24X for mid $40s is way more appealing, along with a curb weight in the same neighborhood.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean about the Z cars. The 350 was lighter than the TT. And each one looked to me like a sales success for the duration of its run. Thing is, the Z33 was less of a sports car, sharing its platform with Muranos & sedans, and using the exact same engine. Honestly, I can't figure out what point you're trying to make.
Are you kidding? I agree! Problem is they're not building that beast for $55K; add at least a 30% premium to that, is my guess. $32,000 was the base price of the FD when it debuted in spring '92, in today's money that's $53,000. No way we're getting a Z06 equivalent for so cheap.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

Guys, for everyone asking for horsepower: There's a fundamental engineering problem here and it's called emissions. How the hell are they going to light the cat off to meet the upcoming 2017 California LEVIII emissions regulations?

Mazda basically threw everything at the Renesis and it couldn't pass Euro 5, and barely passed California LEVII-ULEV. They had an air pump, air assisted injection, dual layer exhaust manifold, hydrocarbon trap catalyst, no overlap in the port timing. Many of those are the kind of technologies and strategies you find on a Prius, which is a LEVII-PZEV vehicle.

What that means is, the technologies of the cleanest piston engines are needed to make the prior rotaries barely pass modern standards.

More than 250 horsepower may be technologically infeasible due to emissions. It may require restrictive exhaust manifolds and port timing that's not tuned for power. It may make a turbo too much of a heatsink to light off the cat. The only ways around it would be really, really expensive and risky (laser ignition or something) and would provide no benefit that the customer would perceive. And that's for 2017. By 2025, every gas or diesel engine for passenger use will have to be as clean as a Prius is today. It's a fundamental engineering challenge that may limit power from a rotary significantly.

$lacker

iTrader: (9)

Has any manufacturer ever built a car and sold it in North America EXCLUDING Commiefornia? Lol

Montego

iTrader: (1)

I don't get it how is going 35 miles an hour down a straight away more fun on an s2000 than on a prius? Other than having the top down what's the big difference? Or turning a corner at the POSTED speed limit? Which is by no means taking the either car anywhere near its handling capabilities and therefore nullifying any advantages taht one car may have over the other...

Or are you doing some spirit driving?





That is a very good point for people who live in europe. But it means jack squat to us over here. The bottom line is that I could really care less what other countries emissions standards are as long as car companies provide me something competitive with other cars that are here. There is a reason why certain cars only ship to certain countries. Car makers gear options for intended markets and regions.

Do it once, do it right. Live happy with no regrets.


Mazda sells sport cars right? And other car makers make sport cars too... So I guess mazda does indeed have competition. Just sayin....

Montego

iTrader: (1)

Thank you for answering. So I will answer you now. The answer is no not really. Responsiveness? Please but I'm driving like a normal human being? WTF do I need a car to be responsive about? Nothing that's what. Also a normal human being does not need ultimate handling since all they are doing is tooling around town. To be honest, money spent on engineering a sport car to be driven mildly (legally) on the street is just a huge waste of money.

If you haven't noticed I am giving you the same argument that you gave regarding higher HP cars. Because the fact is no one needs any sport car attributes for street cars. No one.





One last thing about emissions- I would expect Mazda to put in some serious R&D in order to meet the customer's HP needs of this century and still meet current and future emission standards. If Mazda can't do that well IMO the Rx-7 is best left alone as a thing of the past.

WANKfactor

iTrader: (1)

This thread title should be changed to "Pointless incessant drivel until at least 2017"

Bwarrrrrp

I see. So you're just being deliberately obtuse. Why didn't you say so earlier?

ZDan

If you don't feel a HUGE difference between driving a Prius around town at exactly the same speeds vs. an S2000 (or FD, or MIata), then you will NEVER "get it".

BTW, in town turning a corner at the posted speed limit is often not possible. Speed limit 35, try taking a hard turn onto a narrow side street at that speed.

Not at all, but I am able to FEEL what the car is doing and how it responds to my inputs at 2-3/10ths as well as at 9-11/10ths.

You take a corner, even a low-speed corner in a Prius, you have to crank in more steering angle, and have to initiate somewhat sooner to carve the same arc vs. an S2000. You get a LOT more body roll and more push. You begin to feel a loss of incremental grip with increasing cornering load and steering input WAY sooner. When you begin to add power exiting the corner, when you'd begin unwinding the steering in the S2k, you have to maintain more steering angle in the Prius or you get more push. Accelrating out of the corner in the Prius you have to give more initial input at the pedal because of the "being-pulled-with-a-rubberband" feel of the CVT. Throughout the corner entry/apex/exit experience, you get zero feel from the steering wheel.

IT IS A FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT DRIVING EXPERIENCE.

If you can't feel or even imagine the difference, your brain must have been wired for something else.

You don't care, possibly can't even feel how a car responds to your inputs. Why would *you* drive a sports car in that case?

Every car I own is also a track car. But even if it weren't, I want a lightweight and responsive car to drive every day, even if I never get beyond 6-7/10ths of its performance capabilities.

S2000 is currently on low-grip winter tires. It is STILL massive fun to drive around town and on backroads, even with only ~0.8 or so maximum gs lateral grip.

If you can't feel what a car is doing and how it responds to your inputs, fine. I am keenly and acutely aware of how the car I'm driving is responding to my inputs at all times. I appreciate the Prius as a technical achievement, and it was cool to average 37mpg averaging 90mph on a road trip I took in one, but that car is totally dead-feeling to drive (apparently on purpose). The S2000, driven similarly, is constantly giving gobs of feedback, turns in eagerly, can be steered with the throttle, corners flat, responds to subtle inputs, it just does all the right things and rewards driver attention, even way way way below handling limits. It is a DRIVER'S car, vs. the Prius which is very much a "car as A-to-B appliance".

If you can't tell the difference, even driving at non-douchebag speeds around town, well that's too bad...

Drifted88

iTrader: (3)

Like lawn mowers. Slap a sticker on it that says "not for sale in California" lol

Mazderati

iTrader: (3)

Heh.

Fritz Flynn

iTrader: (263)

I suggest: IMPORTANT, shove this thread up Mazda's ***, pull out a wankel and don't forget to wipe because nobody wants another mess like the RX8

Clearly nothing better to drivel about on a rotary car club forum than discussing the next rotary powered car or cars in general over most other topics; I know weird