Could someone please post a shot of the center line of the E-Shaft and the crank
of the LS WITH THE OIL PANs ON.

I understand that the E-Shaft meets where the camshaft is on the LS. But, the rotary
has a very shallow oil pan and the LS has a deeper pan.

So, in my mind I would like to see where they are in the real world regarding ground clearances.

Keep in mind I'm on the fence with V8 vs. my REW

 

This is the last sort of thing you should consider

If you like v8 engines go v8 it not go rotary

It's that simple the rest of it is 6 to 1 1/2 dozen the other or in other words you can work the chassis around the engine

 

Also, IF the V8 is indeed too heavy, truck like, and the trans shifts like a dodge.

Then what would be a good swap? Compromise?

There is a guy down the street doing amazing things to the 3.7 V6 mustangs using a
Comp turbo. Killer6 on youtube is one of his customers cars.

https://www.youtube.com/user/fear2163

 

I come back to California on May 1st. Within the first week I should dyno vids and some serious track videos up.

 

Do your research and make a decision

Sounds to me that you don't have love the rotary so it's no brainer

To some of us the FD is more about the rotary than anything else if that's the case then there is no decision. If there is a decision then in my opinion the v8 will win this battler every single time.

It's not much heavier (if aluminum block)
tons more torque
more durable trans
etc...

So if you are practical you go v8 if you love a high revving super smooth low torque/linear engine you go rotary and you put up with the BS

 

It's both! Allow me to pass along some information that even I didn't know a couple years back. The RX in Rx7 stands for Rotary eXperiment. So the name rotary is cemented in all Rx vehicles and this forums name.

 

It's a love/hate relationship. On my 5th RX7 now. First car was an RX7 20 years ago and
I've had one 15 of those 20 years. So, I kinda feel obligated. I did an LS swap in the
Grand National and it just works ALL the time.

I love the power delivery, sound, simplicity, exclusivity and light/free rev of the rotary.

Things I wish to improve: idle, A/C kick up, Fans turning on, headlights turning on, starting,
gas mileage(but whatever with E85), spark plugs fouling, premixing, Oh and my wife doesn't like the raw fuel smell.

MY QUESTION to myself all the time!

Will getting rid of my Microtech LTX8 for a better ECU solve most of these issues?
Or
Should I save my cash for a swap?

 

For track car I like a single turbo all out low boost low power simple FD. Usually don't have too many issues other than manifolds cracking etc..

For street use I like mostly stock TT cars and never have issues with AC, idle, gas smell etc.... because they are mostly stock

I don't need or want big power in 2700 pound car

 

I love my stockISH TT for both track , and street .

Although I will be going single in a couple months probably (for heat )

My first track day I had a spec miata racer (instructor) drive my car to teach me line , and just take a feel of the capabilities . He had said he's driven a few other FD's on track from students . and those were single . but he said howmuch better the power delivery was on my TT setup then the other cars even though the other cars had more top end . told me I should never change it haha

Unfortunately heat from the twins is pretty mean at the track .

 

Yep

We'd all love twins but they run too hot especially as your right foot gains weight

 

Great stuff Armen and Daniel! You both have well built, beautiful cars - thanks for sharing

I think this comparison would have been better on a track than on a public road (is that a biker on the side of the road at 13'31"?!). It was a subjective review most likely with a preconceived bias; where sector, lap, and cornering speeds would have made a more definitive objective review to complement the subjective canyon runs.

But than again, I have my Sport Compact Car September 2006 issue with actual telemetry from Streets of Willow for what I'd want as a real comparison of an LS1 FD vs single turbo 13b FD vs LS1 Camaro






Great stuff and entertaining either way!

 

Nice cars. Great to see a rotary and LS powered FD featured on drive. I agree that the review of both was very shallow and his obvious bias kinda bothered me.

Matt Farah asks for someone to explain to him why the rotary is better other than it's uniqueness, then somehow concludes from driving 2 cars on the street with engines developed decades apart that the rotary isn't better in any objective way.
I'm not saying that one is or isn't better but there are plenty of metrics to judge an engine by, some of which the modded 13B-REW excels in. Examples are power density, lack of complexity, and no valve train to limit revs. You can rebuild a rotary in your shed with a set of feeler guages. I can flog mine all weekend at the track and drive it home.
Is the rotary better on all metrics? Of course not, but it appears no actual metrics were used other than Matt's butt dyno which may or may not have been calibrated correctly that morning.

 

How many V8 swapped RX-7's have gone back to the rotary.........

 

I know one who is pulling his v8 and is going back to a 3 rotor as week speak. Has 2 or 3 FDs and after a few years of having the LS, ended up not caring too much for change in how the car feels. But that's the minority, after spending 10k+ (or whatever it costs) to do the swap most people wouldn't swap back due to more time and money.

EDIT: And I have to agree with Fritz/Matt. When I'm in an LS swapped FD, if I close my eyes I would think I'm in a vette...which is still a good feeling, but if you've ever been in a proper REW FD, it's a much more enjoyable experience IMO.

 

IIRC, in that magazine the REW FD outperformed the LS FD in almost all the tests. But in the end it was blamed on the tires so they disregarded the results pretty much.

 

On a side note, I don't think it has been mentioned yet. But almost all OEM companies have turbo cars, turbos are now in F1, and indy series, ie...turbos are here to stay for awhile and that means turbo technology is expected to skyrocket, which they have in just the last 2 years alone.

Just last year an EFR turbo rotary produced almost 200 rwhp just after 3k rpms, previously the seq twins could muster maybe 140-160 rwhp at best and most single setups are around 80-100 rwhp. It is expected for EFR to improve even further on that design and many more companies are hard at work as well. This means obviously that the REW is going to gain huge advantages in power bands over naturally aspirated engines, LS, 20B, alike. In the next 5 years I would not be surprised if turbo technology has increased so much that a single turbo 13B could outperform even the most well built naturally aspirated motors anywhere over 3k rpms.

Just something to think about...

EDIT: Completely forgot, a good friend of mine dyno'd at over 500 ft-lbs of torque and 550 rwhp on a somewhat unique, modern day turbo with a stock ported REW. Once again, 5 years ago, this was not possible.

 

I know exactly what you are talking about. I also find the stock LS1 engine power delivery, with ~300-340whp depending on the intake and exhaust components, a bit dull. The rev limiter is set at around 6250 rpm, and the combination doesn't quite feel very exciting. Having driven and owned stock LS1 FDs (albeit not for long being stock LS1), I found the rotary counterpart to feel more exciting as well.

However, most FD swappers are not running a stock LS1. As the horsepower numbers go up through induction and exhaust improvements, and, most importantly, camshaft upgrades, the power curve often peaks at 6500-6700 extends beyond 7200 rpm. And, through such power delivery is when an FD starts to feel properly exciting. I'm surprised you still haven't driven one of these on a track, and I highly recommend it for the fun of it.

Among the V8 drivers and tuners the LSX engines are known for having a "sick" top end (not a stock LS1). Usually it doesn't take long for the "modular V8s", DOHC V8s, etc, as well as stock LS1s and LS6s to be out of grunt at the top end. However, having a linear power delivery out of a LSX all the way through 7200-7400 rpm redefines the FD with 3.90-4.10 gearing (versus stock LS1 power range).

Everyone has their own relative experience, so to each his own. I've ridden in a track prepped single turbo REW before and that was much fun, but I have also owned a dual purpose LSX street/track FD. I must say that the power delivery and the 8 cylinder music all the way through 7400 rpm on a road course was my most enjoyable experience to date.

I've ridden in and drove C5 Base, C5 Z06 (on track), C6 Base and C6 Z06 Corvettes, but I find them all dull in comparison to my FD. Therefore, I can't agree with Matt or you about such a similarity to the Corvette feeling, and also about what is a more enjoyable experience vs the rotary cars.

Even if we were to compare an FD to a Corvette using the exact same engines, the weight differences, drag coefficients, size differences and overall feel differences are quite noticeable. Besides, even the driving position and visibility is quite different as well.

 

Wankels wouldn't be the only engines gaining recent technology advantages. The latest LT1 and LT4 (boosted) engines are quite impressive. The LS3 and LS7 (which can produce 650+ whp N/A) engines will also become cheaper over time. The new turbo technology can also be applied to any engine. For example, the new Mercedes 4.0 V8 biturbo has 2 turbos between its heads. Similarly, the LT4 has a supercharger in the same location. Additionally, the manufacturers are focused on improving the piston engines through this technology.

As the time goes by, I can't wait for the LT1 & LT4 swaps to start being considered.

 

The only piston engine I would ever consider for my fd is the compact V10 from the LF-A. Its got a nice exotic exhaust note and a torque curve that just keeps rising as the rpm increases (which is very NA rotary like in delivery). Most domestics V8's just have way too much torque (which make it more difficult to manage on the street or track. If your spinning tires on the street, your not going anywhere fast IMO. I see soo many V8 guys running the streets with Mickey Thompson ET streets because they have no traction. My supercharged ASC McLaren has the same problem. I can never get on it without the rear coming loose.

 

Good video, both cars seem great Was expecting a touch of bias right off the bat with him doing the review, and wasn't wrong. Would have much rather seen Chris Harris present this








Agreed to some extent, but I don't think dull is quite the word. I think the c5's/c6's are great cars certainly, but lack a bit of intuitive feel(best way to put it?), not as easy as a car to get into and drive hard compared to the FD.


My(somewhat rhetorical) question for the V8 FD guys who are familiar with the c5's/c6's, is it worth the money, time, potential loss of investment(a stretch, I know) to swap an FD over getting a vette, when it seems to me the only gains are a better looking car, a bit less weight, and better driver's feel?
My skewed opinion leans towards keep a rotary powered FD, and rather than spend 10k+ on a swap, put the 10k towards also having a nice c5z. This is of course coming from someone who has never been in a v8 FD. And $20k for a C5z is still an incredible bargain, which doesn't require months of building, and if you needed to sell it down the line, your not loosing a bunch of money.



THIS. I find it incredible how the FD, with its only issue really being the fragility of the engine, is regarded as horribly unreliable, yet we look to nearly every other car brand and see issues that are common and more expensive to correct, yet those cars never seem to gain the horribly unreliable reputation the FD has(besides some Audi's, lol).

 

same can be said about this past review ,

The Rotary FD had the Dunlop ZII which are a 200 TW great performance summer tire ,

I'm NOT!! Positive on this , But from the tread it looked like the V8 FD was on Toyo R888

If the Owner of the V8 FD would like to chime in

 

I believe that Armen (FD owner) noted in his first post that he was running Hankook Rs3 tires. Did I miss a post where he mentions changing over to Dunlop ZIIs?

 

Initially I had the rs3's but later installed the Zii's. Posted it somewhere in here. Both are the same category tire with a slight advantage going to the zii's for its better cold traction and durability. Daniel (LS Fd) indeed has R888. Matt wasnt really going 100% in the canyons so the grip advantage of the R888's is negligible. The stiffer sidewalls make turnin better.. Noticeably..even with 17inch wheels. I know because I used to run r888's on various rims.

I want to build off something Fritz said.. At the track the FD chassis really doesnt need more than 350 wtq. Above 350tq youll notice that your lap time dont really drop despite the additional power. The balance of car becomes "un-proportional" and your lap times become inefficient. At the end of the day, lap times are the best quantifiable data points. I really think ~400whp 330wtq is perfect. I can power out of 2nd gear turns HARD with minimal slip angle. Even off camber its easy to modulate yet I also have the top end to hang with the big boys in my class. When I post some more track vids you will see my corner exit speeds vs the higher class c6 z06's and their 335 pilot cup tires. To be honest the EFR might even be too responsive but its something im already used to, just need to be more alert. With my TD61 it was a bit more composed on certain corner exits.

Btw: with slicks and proper downforce you can easily rock over 400whp. Im just talking about the avg FD track setup.

 

After riding in your car a couple years ago (with only 295 rwhp) I don't doubt you. I know your engine was worn out but your correct. A 2,700lb properly balanced sports car doesn't need much to be fast.

 

Wow, sounds like your old setup was very similar to mine.