My FD is going to be featured on TUNED
03-22-15, 10:00 PM
#101
I have the pettit track pro stage 3's 12k/12k springs tanabe front sway and oem rear sway.
Edit: The ls fd had tokikos w/ eibach springs and racingbeat sways.
During the wheel shots my shocks were on full soft. All other shots the shocks were almost fully tightened up.
My tires are dunlop direzza zii's.
He should of definitely talked more about powerband, hp, boost response, steering feel, brake feel, handling and some sort of speed comparison. To the common viewer they have no idea how fast the car(s) are. At least they got a flame shot tho
Edit: The ls fd had tokikos w/ eibach springs and racingbeat sways.
During the wheel shots my shocks were on full soft. All other shots the shocks were almost fully tightened up.
My tires are dunlop direzza zii's.
He should of definitely talked more about powerband, hp, boost response, steering feel, brake feel, handling and some sort of speed comparison. To the common viewer they have no idea how fast the car(s) are. At least they got a flame shot tho
Compare it to this
definitely Not the same attitude also as he states it , hes not a fan of turbos LOL
Last edited by Tem120; 03-22-15 at 10:06 PM.
03-23-15, 11:44 AM
#102
^ prob one of my all time favorite cars.. Makes me want to a find a wrecked GT3 and send it straight to sharkwerks.
Kinda too late now, but I got around to having my dual wastegate dumps re-routed back into the exhaust. 2-1 design (2x 1.5inch to a 2.5inch) with the added vband makes DP removal a breeze. Interestingly, the car feels faster and the boost is more stable. Sounds perfect, smooth and mean w/ the full 3.5inch exhaust.
Special thanks to Abel Ibarra for the fab work.
Kinda too late now, but I got around to having my dual wastegate dumps re-routed back into the exhaust. 2-1 design (2x 1.5inch to a 2.5inch) with the added vband makes DP removal a breeze. Interestingly, the car feels faster and the boost is more stable. Sounds perfect, smooth and mean w/ the full 3.5inch exhaust.
Special thanks to Abel Ibarra for the fab work.
03-23-15, 03:45 PM
#105
Nice find on the link and beautiful setup. Did you guys ever get to play around and do some pulls? Torque has that way of making something feel faster than it really is. I would be willing to bet the LS2 would not have the power to make up on the straights like he thinks.
03-23-15, 04:45 PM
#106
I would of loved to do a drag on the hwy for shear fun. I think the LS owner would of been surprised at how well my motor does high end 3rd/4th gear and I too am curious how the LS does high end. I actually asked him to drive my car and wanted to drive his car but his reaction to my offer, or lack of, gave me the message that he was rather uninterested.
I really dont care whos car is faster. You can make a 900whp 2 rotor if one chooses to do so. Its not always about speed but feel and thrill. Matt missed these points.
I really dont care whos car is faster. You can make a 900whp 2 rotor if one chooses to do so. Its not always about speed but feel and thrill. Matt missed these points.
03-23-15, 09:19 PM
#109
Nice feature. However, would have better to do a back to back track comparison for times at Buttonwillow with the same driver behind the wheel of each ride. Funny how perceptions can be skewed, no? I've ridden in my car before when someone else was driving and thought "man, this thing isn't as fast as I thought." Truly makes you wonder. As he said, they had very similar setups. Track with identical tires would have been the easiest way to distinguish.
Last edited by RCCAZ 1; 03-24-15 at 08:01 AM.
03-23-15, 10:31 PM
#110
Senior Member
Nice feature! Enjoyed watching it. I love both the cars. I think the comment about the fuel consumption was kind of a jab like you previously brought up. But I think most people at this point take Matt's comments with a little caution. Nice ride.
03-23-15, 11:20 PM
#111
I think I'll just go with more RX-7 is better than less RX-7, so I'm good with this, loved seeing this one represent the community.
It wasn't a very good film on their part though, I have seen most of them and this is one of the few that would have been better having been done by any other one of their crew. He's already made up his mind and not in a funny Jeremy Clarkson way, in the way where he lists all the advantages, then asks at the end what the advantage is so it all seems a bit pointless. Hopefully they haven't gotten into a rhythm of just regurgitating internet hyperbole with some scenic shots, plenty of that already.
It wasn't a very good film on their part though, I have seen most of them and this is one of the few that would have been better having been done by any other one of their crew. He's already made up his mind and not in a funny Jeremy Clarkson way, in the way where he lists all the advantages, then asks at the end what the advantage is so it all seems a bit pointless. Hopefully they haven't gotten into a rhythm of just regurgitating internet hyperbole with some scenic shots, plenty of that already.
03-24-15, 12:25 AM
#112
Hey Joe hope I didn't come off as rude man. Matt just kind of threw it out there and you were like yea sure!..and I had a definite pause haha.
I just knew it was going to be a long day, and by the end I had to get my dad off his feet. Didn't get home til way late because of traffic.
So I'd say different time and place. Glad to see you've got your wastegate changed. Maybe we could play without attracting every cop in a 5 mile radius
I just knew it was going to be a long day, and by the end I had to get my dad off his feet. Didn't get home til way late because of traffic.
So I'd say different time and place. Glad to see you've got your wastegate changed. Maybe we could play without attracting every cop in a 5 mile radius
03-24-15, 07:57 AM
#113
Hey Joe hope I didn't come off as rude man. Matt just kind of threw it out there and you were like yea sure!..and I had a definite pause haha.
I just knew it was going to be a long day, and by the end I had to get my dad off his feet. Didn't get home til way late because of traffic.
So I'd say different time and place. Glad to see you've got your wastegate changed. Maybe we could play without attracting every cop in a 5 mile radius
I just knew it was going to be a long day, and by the end I had to get my dad off his feet. Didn't get home til way late because of traffic.
So I'd say different time and place. Glad to see you've got your wastegate changed. Maybe we could play without attracting every cop in a 5 mile radius
03-24-15, 08:18 AM
#114
Senior Member
03-24-15, 10:20 AM
#115
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"This leads us back to the question. Would the rx7 have been better with a different engine?
Depends on your priorities. For instance.
The v8 car is faster.
The v8 car is more refined.
The v8 car has more torque coming out of corners so you don't have to work as hard to get the most out of it.
And the v8 is significantly more fuel efficient. During the exact same conditions it used less than half as much fuel as the rotary car.
On the other hand the rotary turns in better, feels lighter in the nose, has better steering feel, and keeps the underdog spirit of Felix Wankel's engine alive.
The rotary engine certainly isn't better than the piston engine in any objective way, but it is different. For some people that's enough."
Where the host found advantages for the rotary was beyond the actual engine: steering, suspension, shifter. I do think that Matt was most likely correct that the rotary car probably did have better feeling turning & steering feel, but I don't think that it was due to "more weight in the nose". This is probably one of the most common complaints from LS-swappers (besides the shifter feel, which is definitely another win for the rotary drivetrain) which is that steering feel is "lost" with the swap... this usually due to a pressure and design mismatch between the LS power steering pump and the RX7 rack. I would bet that if you would put both of these cars on corner scales the actual F/R weight values would be nearly identical.
Last edited by mattster03; 03-24-15 at 11:07 AM.
03-24-15, 11:33 AM
#117
For what it's worth, the steering feel is really nice in my car. Better than a c5z. I was actually worried about it because I've read so many complaints. It's very direct and pretty heavy. The GTO pump is supposed to match stock output very closely.
12k front springs with 18" tires is just going to behave differently than 6k lowering springs with 17" tires.
Matt fit in Joe's car fine. The r1 seats are way lower and he has a smaller wheel. When he got in mine with a sunroof, touring seats, and the giant stock wheel he started to not fit as well. The wheel was into his legs to the point where he had to shuffle steer.
On the flip side his head was nearly resting against Joe's roll bar haha.
Joe's car is an R1 and mine is a touring. He has a roll bar and a full size battery in the bins. He is corner balanced to 51% rear bias. I am starting to think my car might have come out a little portly at about 2900-2950 pounds, but that's a guess. It's got dynamat, bose, sunroof, dual 2.5" exhaust, cast exhaust manifolds etc. Of course that big heavy v8 in there too. I wouldn't be surprised if I carried 100-150 pounds more than Joe does.
Whatever it is, mine is a street car and Joe says his is a track car. Both are street driven. Both are pretty similar in performance for how radically different they are.
Joe could make much more power with his rotary and so could I. Headers and a cam I could be making 80whp+ more which would be pretty solidly in the 500's with the same or a little more torque. That wasn't really my goal. My goal was to build a car which seemed like it came from the factory that way.
I personally like the video a lot. It was a fun experience. Yes it was barely surface deep. I'm just bummed there was no drone footage used. I was also hoping for louder exhaust segments and some more pure driving shots but it's all good.
Both cars looked fantastic. Neither of us made an *** of ourselves. It didn't rain! Most importantly we had an issue free day (except for my mazda click click start nonsense...fixed that now).
12k front springs with 18" tires is just going to behave differently than 6k lowering springs with 17" tires.
Matt fit in Joe's car fine. The r1 seats are way lower and he has a smaller wheel. When he got in mine with a sunroof, touring seats, and the giant stock wheel he started to not fit as well. The wheel was into his legs to the point where he had to shuffle steer.
On the flip side his head was nearly resting against Joe's roll bar haha.
Joe's car is an R1 and mine is a touring. He has a roll bar and a full size battery in the bins. He is corner balanced to 51% rear bias. I am starting to think my car might have come out a little portly at about 2900-2950 pounds, but that's a guess. It's got dynamat, bose, sunroof, dual 2.5" exhaust, cast exhaust manifolds etc. Of course that big heavy v8 in there too. I wouldn't be surprised if I carried 100-150 pounds more than Joe does.
Whatever it is, mine is a street car and Joe says his is a track car. Both are street driven. Both are pretty similar in performance for how radically different they are.
Joe could make much more power with his rotary and so could I. Headers and a cam I could be making 80whp+ more which would be pretty solidly in the 500's with the same or a little more torque. That wasn't really my goal. My goal was to build a car which seemed like it came from the factory that way.
I personally like the video a lot. It was a fun experience. Yes it was barely surface deep. I'm just bummed there was no drone footage used. I was also hoping for louder exhaust segments and some more pure driving shots but it's all good.
Both cars looked fantastic. Neither of us made an *** of ourselves. It didn't rain! Most importantly we had an issue free day (except for my mazda click click start nonsense...fixed that now).
Last edited by spanks13; 03-24-15 at 11:38 AM.
03-24-15, 11:46 AM
#118
For what it's worth, the steering feel is really nice in my car. Better than a c5z. I was actually worried about it because I've read so many complaints. It's very direct and pretty heavy. The GTO pump is supposed to match stock output very closely.
12k front springs with 18" tires is just going to behave differently than 6k lowering springs with 17" tires.
Matt fit in Joe's car fine. The r1 seats are way lower and he has a smaller wheel. When he got in mine with a sunroof, touring seats, and the giant stock wheel he started to not fit as well. The wheel was into his legs to the point where he had to shuffle steer.
On the flip side his head was nearly resting against Joe's roll bar haha.
Joe's car is an R1 and mine is a touring. He has a roll bar and a full size battery in the bins. He is corner balanced to 51% rear bias. I am starting to think my car might have come out a little portly at about 2900-2950 pounds, but that's a guess. It's got dynamat, bose, sunroof, dual 2.5" exhaust, cast exhaust manifolds etc. Of course that big heavy v8 in there too. I wouldn't be surprised if I carried 100-150 pounds more than Joe does.
Whatever it is, mine is a street car and Joe says his is a track car. Both are street driven. Both are pretty similar in performance for how radically different they are.
Joe could make much more power with his rotary and so could I. Headers and a cam I could be making 80whp+ more which would be pretty solidly in the 500's with the same or a little more torque. That wasn't really my goal. My goal was to build a car which seemed like it came from the factory that way.
I personally like the video a lot. It was a fun experience. Yes it was barely surface deep. I'm just bummed there was no drone footage used. I was also hoping for louder exhaust segments and some more pure driving shots but it's all good.
Both cars looked fantastic. Neither of us made an *** of ourselves. It didn't rain! Most importantly we had an issue free day (except for my mazda click click start nonsense...fixed that now).
12k front springs with 18" tires is just going to behave differently than 6k lowering springs with 17" tires.
Matt fit in Joe's car fine. The r1 seats are way lower and he has a smaller wheel. When he got in mine with a sunroof, touring seats, and the giant stock wheel he started to not fit as well. The wheel was into his legs to the point where he had to shuffle steer.
On the flip side his head was nearly resting against Joe's roll bar haha.
Joe's car is an R1 and mine is a touring. He has a roll bar and a full size battery in the bins. He is corner balanced to 51% rear bias. I am starting to think my car might have come out a little portly at about 2900-2950 pounds, but that's a guess. It's got dynamat, bose, sunroof, dual 2.5" exhaust, cast exhaust manifolds etc. Of course that big heavy v8 in there too. I wouldn't be surprised if I carried 100-150 pounds more than Joe does.
Whatever it is, mine is a street car and Joe says his is a track car. Both are street driven. Both are pretty similar in performance for how radically different they are.
Joe could make much more power with his rotary and so could I. Headers and a cam I could be making 80whp+ more which would be pretty solidly in the 500's with the same or a little more torque. That wasn't really my goal. My goal was to build a car which seemed like it came from the factory that way.
I personally like the video a lot. It was a fun experience. Yes it was barely surface deep. I'm just bummed there was no drone footage used. I was also hoping for louder exhaust segments and some more pure driving shots but it's all good.
Both cars looked fantastic. Neither of us made an *** of ourselves. It didn't rain! Most importantly we had an issue free day (except for my mazda click click start nonsense...fixed that now).
...
03-24-15, 11:47 AM
#119
Where the host found advantages for the rotary was beyond the actual engine: steering, suspension, shifter. I do think that Matt was most likely correct that the rotary car probably did have better feeling turning & steering feel, but I don't think that it was due to "more weight in the nose". This is probably one of the most common complaints from LS-swappers (besides the shifter feel, which is definitely another win for the rotary drivetrain) which is that steering feel is "lost" with the swap... this usually due to a pressure and design mismatch between the LS power steering pump and the RX7 rack. I would bet that if you would put both of these cars on corner scales the actual F/R weight values would be nearly identical.
Don't forget that corner weighing doesn't tell you the whole story or were the center of gravity is. The typical v8 swap will move the engine forward and closer to the nose were as the stock rotary placement is behind the front tires and closer to the center of rotation. The rotary and its front mid engine placement has always given the Rx7 it's handling characteristics (which is probably what Matt was feeling). The more weight away from the center of rotation effects the vehicles reflexes. That's just physics has nothing to do with the steering power assist. Also isn't the steering rack lowered on most v8 swaps? Maybe the Matt was also experiencing bumpsteer issues?
Last edited by t-von; 03-24-15 at 12:16 PM.
03-24-15, 12:38 PM
#120
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Don't forget that corner weighing doesn't tell you the whole story or were the center of gravity is. The typical v8 swap will move the engine forward and closer to the nose were as the stock rotary placement is behind the front tires and closer to the center of rotation. The more weight away from the center of rotation effects the vehicles reflexes. That's just physics has nothing to do with the steering power assist. Also isn't the steering rack lowered on most v8 swaps?
Yes, the rack is lowered on most V8 swaps to preserve the hood line, it is also compensated for. But that's not the point; the question is "would the RX7 been better with a different engine". That would mean that Mazda had designed it that way, and most of the shortcomings due to fitment (such as rack lowering) that folks who swap V8's into RX7s have to deal with wouldn't be there. Guys (like you according to your signature) are also happily swaping the 3 rotor and 4 rotor engines into the FD chassis, and the swapped cars are generally held in high regard in the rotary community, but do they come across fitment issues and changes due to weight with respect to the center of gravity? I do think that answer is yes. Would the RX7 have been better with a N/A or turbo 20b? Maybe, if it was designed that way. What I took away from this video is that Matt thinks the LS1 is objectively a better engine, and I feel his 'cons', although minor, are mostly figments of the aftermarket fitting of a different engine into the chassis not the drivetrain itself.
Last edited by mattster03; 03-24-15 at 01:29 PM.
03-24-15, 02:07 PM
#121
It seems to me that he favored the actual LS engine over the rotary engine in his review, judging by this ending quote:
"This leads us back to the question. Would the rx7 have been better with a different engine?
Depends on your priorities. For instance.
The v8 car is faster.
The v8 car is more refined.
The v8 car has more torque coming out of corners so you don't have to work as hard to get the most out of it.
And the v8 is significantly more fuel efficient. During the exact same conditions it used less than half as much fuel as the rotary car.
On the other hand the rotary turns in better, feels lighter in the nose, has better steering feel, and keeps the underdog spirit of Felix Wankel's engine alive.
The rotary engine certainly isn't better than the piston engine in any objective way, but it is different. For some people that's enough."
Where the host found advantages for the rotary was beyond the actual engine: steering, suspension, shifter. I do think that Matt was most likely correct that the rotary car probably did have better feeling turning & steering feel, but I don't think that it was due to "more weight in the nose". This is probably one of the most common complaints from LS-swappers (besides the shifter feel, which is definitely another win for the rotary drivetrain) which is that steering feel is "lost" with the swap... this usually due to a pressure and design mismatch between the LS power steering pump and the RX7 rack. I would bet that if you would put both of these cars on corner scales the actual F/R weight values would be nearly identical.
"This leads us back to the question. Would the rx7 have been better with a different engine?
Depends on your priorities. For instance.
The v8 car is faster.
The v8 car is more refined.
The v8 car has more torque coming out of corners so you don't have to work as hard to get the most out of it.
And the v8 is significantly more fuel efficient. During the exact same conditions it used less than half as much fuel as the rotary car.
On the other hand the rotary turns in better, feels lighter in the nose, has better steering feel, and keeps the underdog spirit of Felix Wankel's engine alive.
The rotary engine certainly isn't better than the piston engine in any objective way, but it is different. For some people that's enough."
Where the host found advantages for the rotary was beyond the actual engine: steering, suspension, shifter. I do think that Matt was most likely correct that the rotary car probably did have better feeling turning & steering feel, but I don't think that it was due to "more weight in the nose". This is probably one of the most common complaints from LS-swappers (besides the shifter feel, which is definitely another win for the rotary drivetrain) which is that steering feel is "lost" with the swap... this usually due to a pressure and design mismatch between the LS power steering pump and the RX7 rack. I would bet that if you would put both of these cars on corner scales the actual F/R weight values would be nearly identical.
"The v8 car is faster" Different "feel" maybe, but "faster" is totally subjective unless you have a timed comparison.
"The v8 car is more refined" WTF does "refined" mean? Less loud (yes, due to open WGs on the rotary) but refined? To me, refined = boring from a driving perspective. Probably in a similar way that the GTR is "refined."
"The v8 car has more torque coming out of corners" In general I'll give him this one, but IMO it has more to do with powerband and where he was driving the rotary in the powerband as he was exiting his corners.
"The v8 is significantly more fuel efficient" Again, probably "true" but less than half as much? Seriously? Unless they took them both to a gas station before starting the comparison, then emptied the tanks post test to measure, I call BS on this as well.
"The rotary turns in better, feels lighter in the nose, has better steering feel" which is what Mazda does EXTREMELY well. They pay attention to feel, attitude and handling more than a VAST majority of other manufacturers.
I'm old enough to have experienced the 60s and 70s firsthand and my first rides were SBC Cameros and Fords, so I'm not close-minded when it comes to engine swaps and the "spirit of American Hot Rodding." I understand the "lure" of the V8 with tons of aftermarket parts and support. But for THIS car and for THIS guy, it's just not for me and never will be.
Last edited by RCCAZ 1; 03-24-15 at 02:09 PM.
03-24-15, 02:08 PM
#122
Senior Member
How close to being emissions legal was the rotary car?
So people know that v8 car is mild as crap. It is running through stock manifolds and cats lol. A baby cam. This car will be ref compliant soon.
**** that thing would have a 100 more hp with just an exhaust and cam
Talking about center of gravity its funny the rotary guys never note the height of the eccentric shaft vs the crank, which incidentally locates the height of the transmission.
So we have a rotary car setup for the track vs mild piston car setup for the street
Review seemed fair to me
Also most v8 rx7 guys have had and owned it rotary too so they understand the differences.... Usually can't be said the other way
So people know that v8 car is mild as crap. It is running through stock manifolds and cats lol. A baby cam. This car will be ref compliant soon.
**** that thing would have a 100 more hp with just an exhaust and cam
Talking about center of gravity its funny the rotary guys never note the height of the eccentric shaft vs the crank, which incidentally locates the height of the transmission.
So we have a rotary car setup for the track vs mild piston car setup for the street
Review seemed fair to me
Also most v8 rx7 guys have had and owned it rotary too so they understand the differences.... Usually can't be said the other way
03-24-15, 02:20 PM
#123
Yes, the rack is lowered on most V8 swaps to preserve the hood line, it is also compensated for. But that's not the point; the question is "would the RX7 been better with a different engine". That would mean that Mazda had designed it that way, and most of the shortcomings due to fitment (such as rack lowering) that folks who swap V8's into RX7s have to deal with wouldn't be there.
True as Mazda would have to stretch the wheel base a bit to make everything fit like it did with rotary. I have a supercharged 88 ASC McLaren 5.0 mustang and a Bmw M5. Both make 400hp so I can appreciate all the things Matt said when it comes to a V8's power delivery and economy (my 5.0 drinks gas though lol). Everytime I drive both I remind myself why most do the Ls swap in the fd.
03-24-15, 02:26 PM
#124
I'm a big rotary fan but Indeed...imagine adding a turbo.........or two.... or NOS..
Probably the mighty 20b is a better rival.
But anyway,I think it's just the way he brought the rivalry against a nice 13B that was kinda unpleasant to me , oh well it is what it is.
Probably the mighty 20b is a better rival.
But anyway,I think it's just the way he brought the rivalry against a nice 13B that was kinda unpleasant to me , oh well it is what it is.
03-24-15, 02:33 PM
#125
True to a point but the rotary will still have lower center of gravity. If you take both engines bare blocks and mount then exactly at the same shaft height in relation to the transmission, the V block will still have a taller physical body towering over the rotary. You do realize the rotary block is only 13" tall right? Your typical v8 tranny bellhousing will swallow it hole. Not so with the v-block because the heads will be in the way.
Last edited by t-von; 03-24-15 at 02:37 PM.