More info on your car spanks?

 

Rotary car? Which side of the timeslip are ya?




(haha kidding aside, 11.5 at Fontana is quick, and 123mph is movin'!)

 

I'm the guy with the white car lol

 

haha whoops

 

Bumping an old thread, but I'm curious Spanks, what is your setup.

That is about as fast as most cam only ls1 Rx7s go.

 

just happened upon this video last week, was curious to see who these two nice FDs belonged to and found this giant thread!

i'm sure someone may have said all of this already or perhaps a combination of people did, but as i didn't read every single post and since i'm about 4 months late, here's my humble opinion...

first of all, it is hugely satisfying to finally see the FD get some attention on a mainstream channel like Drive/Tuned, so as an RX7 community (rotary/V8) we should unanimously be thrilled about it. the quality of the footage is top-notch as to be expected with Drive/Tuned, however like many of the FD owners here i feel compelled to express disappointment on the following levels:

1) matt farah, the presenter didn't do his job as a professional and depict any believable enthusiasm about either of these FDs and as far as automotive journalism goes this is a major faux pas; as a journalist when you are given the opportunity to evaluate and compare two subjects like the rotary FD and V8 FD, you start by doing your homework on your subject: the FD. if he had truly done this, he would have approached both vehicles with far more respect for what they are regardless of motor given their 20+ yr old chassis and engineering. as some of you already said, it seemed like he had already made up his mind about which FD he preferred and more embarrassingly he gave viewers the impression that he didn't even really care about either car. without being there at the shoot, that may be ignorant of me to concur with, but only the owners of these two cars would know how interested matt was about this episode that day

2) equally disappointing is the fact that at no point did this episode pay any real homage to one of the quintessential sports cars of the 20th century; this may be a little brash, but it could have easily been an engine swap comparison episode of stock to V8 on a car as irrelevant (in enthusiast terms) as a mazda MPV and the viewers would have most likely received similar opinion and lack of passion from matt's presentation. i realize that the title of the episode implied a comparison of rotary vs. V8 engine, but to keep the content so dry and literal is a fail on matt and Drive/Tuned's part

3) like most purists here i was disappointed that matt chose the V8 engine as the better motor for the FD, however the man is entitled to his opinion after sampling only 2 vehicles and given that he has probably been raised on piston engines. this being said, i will disagree with him (and likely many V8 owners here) by stating that a piston engine is NOT exactly better than a rotary engine. before the guns come blazing, please allow me to explain my statement.

the theory of piston (reciprocating) engines has been around for THOUSANDS of years and over time developed into the atmospheric engine, then the steam engine, and finally by 1859 it was successfully commercialized as what we know as the internal combustion engine. i would say this is more than what one could call a 'head-start' on the wankel engine that came almost 100 years later with development starting in the 1950's. you can wiki this stuff if you don't believe me, but anyone that understands basic mechanics or engineering will appreciate how efficient the rotary engine's design is in terms of power generation, and because wankel's design could not be ignored there were several car manufacturers that initially did experiment with these motors however only 1 (Mazda) stuck with it despite all obstacles.

so i must ask... is it reasonable to assume that if you are the only manufacturer investing in a technology that it will be expensive and that the development cycle will be significantly longer than if 3 or 4 or all major engine manufacturers were investing and competing to develop the same technology? i would hope you said 'yes' - and this is really the sole reason that the rotary is so far behind the piston engine in terms of technology and efficiency. look at how quickly engine developments take place in F1 racing for example - this is the most fierce and robust venue of automotive technology development and no surprise it is also the most expensive to participate in.

imagine where rotary/wankel technology would be if genius engine manufacturers like mercedes-benz and ferrari were developing the technology for racing and road cars - my guess is that it would be light years ahead of where it is right now. when it's one of the smallest automotive companies in the world doing it alone, the costs for development are astronomical and just plain poor business sense.

so, hopefully my statement is more valid now to most of you, and maybe some of the V8 guys will agree that the piston engine isn't exactly 'better' than a rotary, it's just way ahead of the rotary and likely always will be. if that alone categorizes it as 'better' then i won't argue. like some people on this thread already stated, we all love the design and engineering of the FD but bang-for-buck and driving experience from a V8 are not really comparable. we have to look at RX7s with V8 swaps as simply what suits the owner's personality better, that's all.

this being said, if there were a way to get more manufacturers into rotary engine development i guarantee we would still be able to walk into a dealership showroom today and buy one that would outshine the 13B or 20B even. with only a handful of super-passionate nerds at Mazda pushing to keep it alive, the outlook is less optimistic and that is almost heart-breaking for a die-hard fan like myself.

for this reason, it matters even more that opportunities like this video from Drive/Tuned are not poorly executed or inadequately represented as despite what side of the engine fence you're on, the rotary is day by day becoming more and more of a legend. hopefully, we will continue to see some attention from mainstream channels like this in the future (albeit with more passion and respect) to keep the spirit of the rotary alive.

thanks for reading.


binz

 

While it is true that the LS1 sticks out past the strut towers and is about one cylinder(4") longer than the rotary, they both fit within a 2ft cube so the turbo/intercooler apparatus cancel out this advantage.

The LS1 crank/CoG sits slightly lower due to the stock PPP being thicker than the Hinson subframe.

The suspension differences are what made the rotary seem the better handler as evidenced by scales as stock has 53% front and only the swap car has a perfect 50/50: Ponycars.Net - RX7 with LS1 motor

With my 55lb halfcage and 99.8lb rear tires/rims on top of his set up I actually get a rear bias!

 

Why in tarnation do your rear wheels/tires weigh 100 pounds?

 

Maybe it's 50 per side but that is still heavy compared to what most people run.

 

I dunno, most of the mag tests from the day put the FD at 2840 lb. 48F/52R to 50/50 stock, presumably with a full 20 gallon tank of fuel. Never saw it reported as forward-biased. Note that 50/50 isn't "perfect", FR cars with decent power/weight want to be somewhat rear weight biased.

My LS swap with p/s, A/C, 4-point roll bar, heavier-than-stock brakes/wheels/tires, battery relocated to bin behind passenger seat weighed in at 2949 lb, 50.4/49.6 with 3/4 tank of fuel. 49.9/50.1 with me in it.

From what I've seen, the LS swap generally adds ~50 lb. like vs. like (with power steering and A/C and no weight reduction measures), and ~100 lb total with normal supporting mods vs. stock, and does move c.g. forward a little bit, like 1-2%

Of course there are swaps that are lighter than stock and with more rearward weight distribution, but like vs. like, weight is added, and to the front, as near as I've been able to tell...

 

Had the opportunity to drive my coworker's built LS3 FD just a couple weeks ago. It's last event it did 192 mph in the Texas Mile. Although the torque did feel impressive in every gear/rpm it just felt like every other vette I've been in. Plus the whole powertrain doesn't feel remotely as balanced as a rotary. We'll be doing some back to back comparisons, pulls, etc. in a few months that hopefully will be able to share.

I believe his weighed in at a little over 2800 lbs with PS removed but still has AC. My R2 with air pump removed and 1/4 tank of gas was 2695 so a 100-150 lb penalty is still not bad.

 

I only did 185 with my LS2 :'( Will have to go back with 416 c.i. LS3

I didn't get this when people said the same thing about V8 S30s (240/280Z), and I don't get it about LS RX-7s either. Lessee, FD chassis, FD suspension, FD wheelbase, 100 lb. over FD weight like vs. like with supporting mods (Ford 8.8" diff, bigger brakes/wheels tires), ~400-500 lb. less than a Corvette, but it "feels like a 'vette"? Engine noises and vibes, of course. But how about the way it handles? FD all the way.

No surprise there... No reciprocating mass vs. a fair amount of it! For the transmission, a T56 Magnum is a huge improvement over the F-body T56 in terms of feel.

I still say it's going to be more like 50-100 lb. like vs. like, depending on what else is added to support the swap. LS power steering unit weighs next to nothing, btw. Pump plus hoses plus cooler plus fluid might be 20 lb.

 

I love the v8 vs rotary debate but it's beating a dead horse at this time.

Rotary guys love the rotary and v8 guys love the v8. It's a heart thing or not a science thing and in that case nobody is going to change anyone's mind.

Anthony is simply saying the v8 FEELS like a v8. There's a big difference that I think even the v8 guys can admit too. If they would like to also deny that difference then I would have to say the GPS/accelerometer in their *** doesn't work

 

I don't see it that way. Tons of misinfo and misguided biases out there, IMO good to talk about the real, perceived, and imagined differences!

Well, I'm not a rotary guy or a v8 guy. Or, rather, I *am* both a rotary guy and a v8 guy. And an I4 guy and a (sport) vtwin guy and even an electric motor guy. Motors and engines make things go. I *like* to GO

"FEEL" is a big word. A v8 FD does NOT feel like a Corvette to me.

Power to weight determines acceleration. 400hp rotary or 400hp V8 will accelerate the same and feel the same to the butt-dyno in a same-weight car. Given some reasonable V8 weight gain of ~100 lb., call it 400hp rotary = 415hp V8.

Is the point that greater acceleration "just feels like another 'vette"? How terrible!
Worth noting that 400hp in a V8 FD will annihilate a 400hp Corvette, I guess that's even worse?!

To me, the bigger difference is NA vs. turbo. Personally, I love the immediacy of NA powerplants, time-dependency of torque in turbos turns me off. I just like the idea of the throttle pedal being a torque rheostat, not a command to the engine room that will be responded to at some time in the near future.

To me, the way the V8 in my FD responds is not really dissimilar in character to the way the F20C responds in my S2000, or the way the 650 V2 responds in my SV650, or the way the 400cc I4 responds in my FZR400 race bike, or the way the NA 13B responded in my old '90 FC. Torque/hp/acceleration at a given rpm = function of throttle opening, not a function of time.

 

The power delivery of a LS1 sucks to me or it feels like a truck whether it's in a truck, an FD or a corvette. Lots of torque and power for a short time followed by fall on your face drop in power, shift, repeat. LS7 is better, mustang flat crank is likely much better but haven't ridden in one yet, mezger in my GT3 is about the same sensation as the rotary which is the type of power delivery I like to feel in a sports car.

Never ridden in a 400 HP v8 FD but been in plenty of corvettes and I bet it feels like a corvette The weight isn't much different.

I have been in a 300 rwhp v8 FD and 300 HP rotary and the feel is night and day.

 

 

Nice video.... Seems like the host is back peddling some compared to the first video.
Glad to see he likes it though. The owner of the FD has done a awesome job..... be proud of her.

 

We build them because we love them. Nice to see the platform well represented. The addition of the new EFR turbo and the Ohlins puts the best foot forward when offering up an FD for a critical review by a respected journalist. There are some of us still pouring our souls into these cars. Glad to see it so well represented here.

 

Thanks guys. I literally live down the street from Angeles Crest where Matt films most of these. Figured why not, lets do another review with the car polished up. Glad it turned out to be a good video.

 

Congrats again. Enjoyed the video, thanks for reppin us!

Does he not do Tuned anymore?

 

Awesome video. Love your car. We are neighbors! Would love to meet up to check out your car some day. I just bought myself a white FD and want to build a car similar to yours!

 

Armen, great redo man. Awesome. Matt seemed to be backpeddling from his earlier assessment. You've made some great changes. So, when you changed over to the EFR turbo, you just kept the same tune? I hate how rotary owners always clarify when making engine changes that "it's not that I blew the engine or anything." I noticed you said you had not gotten it tuned yet. What were you running for struts before the Ohlins? Are the Ohlins and APracing brakes of the Sakebomb variety??

Had to laugh at the first few minutes of the video where he's talking and your facial expressions just look like you're annoyed You didn't really start smiling until later in the video! The internal WGs have me rethinking my setup (currently have WG dump tubes). I kinda like the loudness, but yours is definitely more refined with the changes. We'll see!

Again, congrats!!

P.S. Since you live so close to the Angeles Crest, did you drive it in advance and set the Ohlins accordingly?

 

Congrats on the car. There are a few cars n coffee events around La Canada each month, maybe we'll meet at one this summer. They usually have nice cars turn up.



Appreciate the words! Tune is pretty much the same..Pretty sure she's running low 10 afrs. I technically could lean the AFRs up a bit and make more power. For now the cars running pretty good and I dont have much time for re-tunning. When he drove the car before, I had the Pettit track/pro coilovers. I know the Angeles Crest roads like the back of my hand lol. I knew where were were meeting, and knew it wasnt re-paved yet so I just softened up the Ohlins a bit before.

 

May have missed my question, but are your Ohlins and AP brakes the same ones sold by Sakebomb?

Thx

 

Armen,

I was all over looking for this thread and didn't find it.

This is you right?

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-gen-gene...x-7-a-1103634/

Congrats on the Road & T article! That's big time IMO.