How to value your FD
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
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From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Reason to want a sunroof: open to let hot air out which can be accomplished by rolling the windows down.
Reason for hard top:
weight (20 plus pounds in the worst possible spot or highest spot on the car)
headroom
looks
simplicity or reliability. The drain tubes becoming clogged in the FD causing water to accumulate in the carpet behind the seats resulting in rust and must/odor.
Again I'll take a hardtop over a sunroof on any car or truck I own.
Reason for hard top:
weight (20 plus pounds in the worst possible spot or highest spot on the car)
headroom
looks
simplicity or reliability. The drain tubes becoming clogged in the FD causing water to accumulate in the carpet behind the seats resulting in rust and must/odor.
Again I'll take a hardtop over a sunroof on any car or truck I own.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; Apr 17, 2019 at 04:36 PM.
Montego. You owned nothing. Pasting links and stating your opinion on an insignificant amount of data is not the same as proving something. Again, if 20 cars of each color all sell within a year on BAT, and there is clearly no difference in value between sunroof and no sunroof, then I'll agree. Until then, it's all opinion, there is no proof as there isn't enough data to be conclusive.
My feelings aren't hurt. Again I've got both types and enjoy them both and notice no difference between the two when driving. When looking at them, I prefer the clean roofline without the sunroof.
And people pay money to save 20lbs. I don't care, but it's value for lots of people that want a sports car. Look at the $2k+ titanium exhausts. No performance gain over stainless other than being lighter.
My feelings aren't hurt. Again I've got both types and enjoy them both and notice no difference between the two when driving. When looking at them, I prefer the clean roofline without the sunroof.
And people pay money to save 20lbs. I don't care, but it's value for lots of people that want a sports car. Look at the $2k+ titanium exhausts. No performance gain over stainless other than being lighter.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Diamond industry.
https://www.businessinsider.com/infl...-supply-2014-6
With that said, the reason the law of supply and demand is not an absolute is because it can be manipulated:
https://www.quicksprout.com/how-to-m...ot-more-money/
I would argue (notice I said I) that here in the forum there's an unintended manipulated demand as it has been widely published the solid roof FDs are the thing to have. Which has led to a manufactured demand for those types of cars (Lesson #3).
I say it is manipulated because of the BS reasoning people say the solid roof is better:
I agree 100%.
If anyone else wants to debate: I think I've said all I have to say. So take note that I'll just point you to my prior points.
You're just pissed because I owned your ***. So yeah, you can join the club of hurt feelings.
https://www.businessinsider.com/infl...-supply-2014-6
With that said, the reason the law of supply and demand is not an absolute is because it can be manipulated:
https://www.quicksprout.com/how-to-m...ot-more-money/
I would argue (notice I said I) that here in the forum there's an unintended manipulated demand as it has been widely published the solid roof FDs are the thing to have. Which has led to a manufactured demand for those types of cars (Lesson #3).
I say it is manipulated because of the BS reasoning people say the solid roof is better:
- Saves weight - Really? So what does a sunroof assembly weigh in at 20 lbs? That equates to 0.699% of the cars total weight. In other words, a negligible difference
- The car is more rigid - Sounds plausible to those that do not understand that the center part of the roof does not hold any load bearing properties. The reality is that there's only a thin piece of metal where the sunroof usually sits and it is useless in terms of load.
- Because race car - Now that's just dumb.
I agree 100%.
If anyone else wants to debate: I think I've said all I have to say. So take note that I'll just point you to my prior points.
You're just pissed because I owned your ***. So yeah, you can join the club of hurt feelings.
PS what our government creates in the RX/medical world is deplorable and that's a manipulated market that's completely disgusting. Health and medicine is something we all need and the prices should be dropping not rising. VERY SAD.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; Apr 17, 2019 at 04:23 PM.
Montego. You owned nothing. Pasting links and stating your opinion on an insignificant amount of data is not the same as proving something. Again, if 20 cars of each color all sell within a year on BAT, and there is clearly no difference in value between sunroof and no sunroof, then I'll agree. Until then, it's all opinion, there is no proof as there isn't enough data to be conclusive.
.... Hagerty the classic car insurance for collectors and classic cars. Yeah them... Well take a look at how they value the 94 Supra MKIV Turbo
They clearly make a distinction between the targa and coupe cars and that agrees with what you say. Coupes are valued higher than Targa tops.
Ok with that out of the way, let's now let's take a look at the 94 Third Generation RX-7: https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati...uto/Mazda/RX~7
Funny ALL FDs are listed under BASE. So Hagerty makes NO DISTINCTION between sunroof and nonsunroof cars. Well ain't that a bitch... You know why, because the collector world doesn't make a distinction either. I will note that sentiment also aligns with BaT sales
- 1994 Toyota Supra Mk IV Turbo 2dr Sport Roof 6-cyl. 2997cc/320hp FI Turbo (Tier 1 valued at $93,900)
- 1994 Toyota Supra Mk IV Turbo 2dr Coupe 6-cyl. 2997cc/320hp FI Turbo (Tier 1 valued at $105,000)
They clearly make a distinction between the targa and coupe cars and that agrees with what you say. Coupes are valued higher than Targa tops.
Ok with that out of the way, let's now let's take a look at the 94 Third Generation RX-7: https://www.hagerty.com/apps/valuati...uto/Mazda/RX~7
Funny ALL FDs are listed under BASE. So Hagerty makes NO DISTINCTION between sunroof and nonsunroof cars. Well ain't that a bitch... You know why, because the collector world doesn't make a distinction either. I will note that sentiment also aligns with BaT sales
- 1994 Mazda RX-7 2dr Coupe 2-cyl. 1308cc/255hp Rotary MPFI (tier 1 valued at $49,400)...
Riiight....Then why did you make comments directed at me that had nothing to do with the discussion? If you weren't butt hurt you wouldn't have done that. You can deny it all you want, it doesn't matter whether you admit or not it's all up there.
Oh don't get me started on that fucktard, pharma bro... That guys needs to burn in hell.
Last edited by Montego; Apr 17, 2019 at 06:13 PM.
In a free market system please give me an example where supply and demand doesn't dictate the price?
At this time we'll agree to disagree regarding hardtop value vs sunroof and as time moves along we'll discover if there's a price difference. It's not worth arguing over though
At this time we'll agree to disagree regarding hardtop value vs sunroof and as time moves along we'll discover if there's a price difference. It's not worth arguing over though
In regards to the Haggerty valuation of Targa/Hardtop Supras, a much bigger deal has been made about the rarity of the HT versions and their supposed advantages. An entire website dedicated to keeping track of all Turbo hardtop examples sold in the US has been around since 2001, and the Steve Theodore, the site founder, has endlessly promoted that trim. Even casual Supra fans know about the distinction, so I am not surprised Haggerty has caught onto it. How in-tune are they really with the finer details of the FD market?
In regards to the Haggerty valuation of Targa/Hardtop Supras, a much bigger deal has been made about the rarity of the HT versions and their supposed advantages. An entire website dedicated to keeping track of all Turbo hardtop examples sold in the US has been around since 2001, and the Steve Theodore, the site founder, has endlessly promoted that trim. Even casual Supra fans know about the distinction, so I am not surprised Haggerty has caught onto it. How in-tune are they really with the finer details of the FD market?
Slick top for the win!
Hagerty doesn't show a distinction. Doesn't mean anything to me. Far from a fact that collectors do not value sunroof vs non sunroof. If you think that's an own, hood for you.
Again, when you actually have real data of cars selling (20 of each color) I will treat it as a fact. Until then, it's an opinion no matter what site you link to (unless they show the same amount of data behind it).
Must be that Yellow car syndrome.
Hagerty doesn't show a distinction. Doesn't mean anything to me. Far from a fact that collectors do not value sunroof vs non sunroof. If you think that's an own, hood for you.
Again, when you actually have real data of cars selling (20 of each color) I will treat it as a fact. Until then, it's an opinion no matter what site you link to (unless they show the same amount of data behind it).
Must be that Yellow car syndrome.
The structural rigidity of a HT Supra vs a Targa is night and day. My Targa squeaked like crazy when turning in and out of a driveway. I only drive the car with the targa off as it was so annoying. Just like a FD that hasn’t had the hatch bumpers/stoppers raised up. It was maddening. Fritz has sold 100 + FDs, I’ve sold 100+ FDs. You can argue it all day but demand for CW, CYM and SSM has always been highest. R1/R2 is always highest over other models followed by base and PEP, then tourings. Way at the end of the line is non factory yellow touring models. I think it’s also very clear tan interior is a huge factor in sell products very as well.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
The standard supply and demand arguments are limiting cases where markets are assumed perfectly efficient, and where there are enough players in the market such that effects from the discreteness of the curves do not come into play. Neither of these criteria are close to satisfied when it comes to the FD market. There are not many people who appreciate the platform enough to pay $50k+ for them, and not many super low mileage FDs either, so, I would not put so much weight on the recent handful of BAT closing prices. However, I would put value on Fritz' personal experience, as he has sold/bought a lot of these over the years. Having been around the platform for 20 years, in my experience a significant majority of owners and prospective buyers preferred non-sunroof cars. I even know of an individual who recently succumbed to buying a PEP car and installing a non-sunroof roof on it.
In regards to the Haggerty valuation of Targa/Hardtop Supras, a much bigger deal has been made about the rarity of the HT versions and their supposed advantages. An entire website dedicated to keeping track of all Turbo hardtop examples sold in the US has been around since 2001, and the Steve Theodore, the site founder, has endlessly promoted that trim. Even casual Supra fans know about the distinction, so I am not surprised Haggerty has caught onto it. How in-tune are they really with the finer details of the FD market?
In regards to the Haggerty valuation of Targa/Hardtop Supras, a much bigger deal has been made about the rarity of the HT versions and their supposed advantages. An entire website dedicated to keeping track of all Turbo hardtop examples sold in the US has been around since 2001, and the Steve Theodore, the site founder, has endlessly promoted that trim. Even casual Supra fans know about the distinction, so I am not surprised Haggerty has caught onto it. How in-tune are they really with the finer details of the FD market?
I think we'll see an FD sell for 50k or more on BAT in the next 12 months...........IF we see a 95 SSM or CW PEP or something similar (94/95 r cars etc...etc..) with under 20k miles that isn't a barn find.
At this time I'd pay 50k for the right car which means someone else would pay 60k lol
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
The structural rigidity of a HT Supra vs a Targa is night and day. My Targa squeaked like crazy when turning in and out of a driveway. I only drive the car with the targa off as it was so annoying. Just like a FD that hasn’t had the hatch bumpers/stoppers raised up. It was maddening. Fritz has sold 100 + FDs, I’ve sold 100+ FDs. You can argue it all day but demand for CW, CYM and SSM has always been highest. R1/R2 is always highest over other models followed by base and PEP, then tourings. Way at the end of the line is non factory yellow touring models. I think it’s also very clear tan interior is a huge factor in sell products very as well.
VR/tan or MB/tan and you can't give away.
Black on black will always sell or that's a pure classic.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 190
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From: Connecticut
Ok, so let's see what a very low mileage (4,500) 1994 MB/Tan Touring can do. Now keep in mind it has a GLASS sunroof - rarest of all!
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-mazda-rx-7-26/
I will guess $100,000 - because of the GLASS sunroof!
Actual guess: $42,000
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-mazda-rx-7-26/
I will guess $100,000 - because of the GLASS sunroof!
Actual guess: $42,000
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Ok, so let's see what a very low mileage (4,500) 1994 MB/Tan Touring can do. Now keep in mind it has a GLASS sunroof - rarest of all!
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-mazda-rx-7-26/
I will guess $100,000 - because of the GLASS sunroof!
Actual guess: $42,000
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1994-mazda-rx-7-26/
I will guess $100,000 - because of the GLASS sunroof!
Actual guess: $42,000
I'll say 47,500 before compression and 100 questions. If it's legit though it will definitely go for over 40 despite being a touring MB/tan.
If it was CW/black 60k
Should be interesting for sure.
Last edited by Fritz Flynn; Apr 18, 2019 at 10:29 AM.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
I find it interesting that the most desired color combo (CW/blk) is also the most rare. It's probably a reflection of how tastes have changed over time. Or maybe it's just a different age demographic interested in the cars now.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
SSM and black will always be a good/popular color.
On a sports cars Red will never get old and is usually the one in person that leaves you with your mouth open.
I think at this point my least favorite color is MB.
THE.NILE is not just a river in Egypt.
Oh don't take off your panties just yet. Aristo is a base owner himself and he has long been in your camp, nothing new here. It just so happens that he is one of the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned that there are those that believe the chassis is stiffer and can feel 0.6% of weight difference with fixed roofed FDs.
Well given that it is their business model to INSURE COLLECTIBLE cars for appropriate value: Very.
It is what they do and I know that you understand this.
Look, I know you guys don't like it but at this point even the companies whose lively hood depends on properly appraising classic vehicles aren't recognizing it. Maybe they will in the future, but that ain't happening today. The forum is not the end all and be all, it is small tiny fraction of the population and what you see as a preference here does not necessarily mean is preferred outside. Collectors aren't track people nor do they fit the typical enthusiast stereotype.
Bwahaha! of course it doesn't! It is obvious you won't accept anything that won't fit your narrative. It wouldn't surprise me if you're also a flat earther or are you an antivax guy?
And where's your proof to back up your claim? Oh yeah you don't have any.... How convenient.
Two sources coincide with my stance. You brought none to the table, NONE. Not one thing to back up your claim other than your worthless speculation. And I'm convinced that there is no amount of proof that would kick you out of your denial. Because it's obvious that you bought the hard top thinking it was more valuable and now you're salty about it.
Ahh I see your ***** is still sore? Nice and you're welcome
Oh don't take off your panties just yet. Aristo is a base owner himself and he has long been in your camp, nothing new here. It just so happens that he is one of the ones I was thinking of when I mentioned that there are those that believe the chassis is stiffer and can feel 0.6% of weight difference with fixed roofed FDs.
It is what they do and I know that you understand this.
Look, I know you guys don't like it but at this point even the companies whose lively hood depends on properly appraising classic vehicles aren't recognizing it. Maybe they will in the future, but that ain't happening today. The forum is not the end all and be all, it is small tiny fraction of the population and what you see as a preference here does not necessarily mean is preferred outside. Collectors aren't track people nor do they fit the typical enthusiast stereotype.
Ahh I see your ***** is still sore? Nice and you're welcome
Last edited by Montego; Apr 18, 2019 at 10:49 PM.
Yes. Nothing like resorting to derogatory comments.
I'm still just fine haha. I find it odd that you think you hurt peoples' feelings. This is a car forum. I do not care what you think. You have proved nothing. You've pasted links, and the only research you've done yourself is on an insignificant amount of data. It's all opinion and I'm sticking with mine unless you magically show sales of 20 of each color within a year that actually supports your opinion. Funny how you keep ignoring the FACT that you do not have enough data to be conclusive. I feel like I'm talking to Fox News or Trump haha.
I'm still just fine haha. I find it odd that you think you hurt peoples' feelings. This is a car forum. I do not care what you think. You have proved nothing. You've pasted links, and the only research you've done yourself is on an insignificant amount of data. It's all opinion and I'm sticking with mine unless you magically show sales of 20 of each color within a year that actually supports your opinion. Funny how you keep ignoring the FACT that you do not have enough data to be conclusive. I feel like I'm talking to Fox News or Trump haha.