Window relay mod using 451m's!
11-11-15, 10:55 AM
#104
MECP Certified Installer
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11-11-15, 11:04 AM
#105
MECP Certified Installer
Thread Starter
Forgot to add...
So it's been a year since I wired this up and it works flawlessly. Initially I was worried because the 451m is only rated at 15 amps MAX during non pulsed operation. The Window motors draw about that and it has held up fine with no issues. I use my windows every day.
So it's been a year since I wired this up and it works flawlessly. Initially I was worried because the 451m is only rated at 15 amps MAX during non pulsed operation. The Window motors draw about that and it has held up fine with no issues. I use my windows every day.
11-11-15, 04:00 PM
#107
MECP Certified Installer
Thread Starter
11-12-15, 11:49 AM
#109
MECP Certified Installer
Thread Starter
Hey, RE, just wanted to point one thing out.
If you isolate the driver switch with both 451m's, the passenger side switch will still see full current when used. Like I said before, if both are in the driver door and you only use the driver side switch, the passenger side switch is of no concern.
To isolate the passenger side switch one would have to do two 451m's in the driver door and another 451m in the passenger door.
If you used regular relays, it would take 6 bosche style relays.
If you isolate the driver switch with both 451m's, the passenger side switch will still see full current when used. Like I said before, if both are in the driver door and you only use the driver side switch, the passenger side switch is of no concern.
To isolate the passenger side switch one would have to do two 451m's in the driver door and another 451m in the passenger door.
If you used regular relays, it would take 6 bosche style relays.
11-12-15, 12:38 PM
#110
yes i suppose the high current would still be running through the driver switch to provide power to the passenger relay bypass directly to the motor, 1 additional relay won't be a big deal and still fits into the price i have them listed for. it just takes a little stuffing to make the dual relays fit in the driver door without the need for pulling the panel off.
but looking at the diagram i still believe i can just run 1 relay through each door, as the high current to the passenger side switch is carried through the B/L wire through the on/off switch in the driver switch which can handle the load. cut the B/L wire and use that as the permanent power source for the relays to run the passenger window motor, use the factory switch system as the control circuit while adding a low amp 12v back to the other side of the B/L circuit to keep the passenger switch alive.
it gets pretty complicated when you start thinking about all the gates that are open and shut, but so long as you have a good power supply and the controls then that is all you need, so i'm focusing on the very end of the circuit.
the ground is the only bit that is missing so i may have to just figure out if the door can handle the grounding to the chassis with a ground strap to the door, i mean it really should have no issue but in practice it's not a well grounded item on the car but i can't rely that everyone's door pins aren't rusted to hell... lol, so you're probably right.
but looking at the diagram i still believe i can just run 1 relay through each door, as the high current to the passenger side switch is carried through the B/L wire through the on/off switch in the driver switch which can handle the load. cut the B/L wire and use that as the permanent power source for the relays to run the passenger window motor, use the factory switch system as the control circuit while adding a low amp 12v back to the other side of the B/L circuit to keep the passenger switch alive.
it gets pretty complicated when you start thinking about all the gates that are open and shut, but so long as you have a good power supply and the controls then that is all you need, so i'm focusing on the very end of the circuit.
the ground is the only bit that is missing so i may have to just figure out if the door can handle the grounding to the chassis with a ground strap to the door, i mean it really should have no issue but in practice it's not a well grounded item on the car but i can't rely that everyone's door pins aren't rusted to hell... lol, so you're probably right.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-12-15 at 01:22 PM.
11-12-15, 03:57 PM
#111
MECP Certified Installer
Thread Starter
yes i suppose the high current would still be running through the driver switch to provide power to the passenger relay bypass directly to the motor, 1 additional relay won't be a big deal and still fits into the price i have them listed for. it just takes a little stuffing to make the dual relays fit in the driver door without the need for pulling the panel off.
but looking at the diagram i still believe i can just run 1 relay through each door, as the high current to the passenger side switch is carried through the B/L wire through the on/off switch in the driver switch which can handle the load. cut the B/L wire and use that as the permanent power source for the relays to run the passenger window motor, use the factory switch system as the control circuit while adding a low amp 12v back to the other side of the B/L circuit to keep the passenger switch alive.
it gets pretty complicated when you start thinking about all the gates that are open and shut, but so long as you have a good power supply and the controls then that is all you need, so i'm focusing on the very end of the circuit.
the ground is the only bit that is missing so i may have to just figure out if the door can handle the grounding to the chassis with a ground strap to the door, i mean it really should have no issue but in practice it's not a well grounded item on the car but i can't rely that everyone's door pins aren't rusted to hell... lol, so you're probably right.
but looking at the diagram i still believe i can just run 1 relay through each door, as the high current to the passenger side switch is carried through the B/L wire through the on/off switch in the driver switch which can handle the load. cut the B/L wire and use that as the permanent power source for the relays to run the passenger window motor, use the factory switch system as the control circuit while adding a low amp 12v back to the other side of the B/L circuit to keep the passenger switch alive.
it gets pretty complicated when you start thinking about all the gates that are open and shut, but so long as you have a good power supply and the controls then that is all you need, so i'm focusing on the very end of the circuit.
the ground is the only bit that is missing so i may have to just figure out if the door can handle the grounding to the chassis with a ground strap to the door, i mean it really should have no issue but in practice it's not a well grounded item on the car but i can't rely that everyone's door pins aren't rusted to hell... lol, so you're probably right.
11-12-15, 06:21 PM
#113
Hey, RE, just wanted to point one thing out.
If you isolate the driver switch with both 451m's, the passenger side switch will still see full current when used. Like I said before, if both are in the driver door and you only use the driver side switch, the passenger side switch is of no concern.
To isolate the passenger side switch one would have to do two 451m's in the driver door and another 451m in the passenger door.
If you used regular relays, it would take 6 bosch style relays.
If you isolate the driver switch with both 451m's, the passenger side switch will still see full current when used. Like I said before, if both are in the driver door and you only use the driver side switch, the passenger side switch is of no concern.
To isolate the passenger side switch one would have to do two 451m's in the driver door and another 451m in the passenger door.
If you used regular relays, it would take 6 bosch style relays.
Two in the driver door for the driver regulator motor. The driver side switch actuates the relays.
Two relays in the passenger door for the passenger regulator motor. The driver side switch then actuates the relays in the passenger door. The passenger door switch also actuates the relays in the passenger door. The same relay operates the motor but is actuated by either switch.
So Ben: you could modify your relay set up to use only one of the M451 in each door and sell it as a set.
Last edited by jackhild59; 11-12-15 at 06:23 PM.
11-12-15, 06:32 PM
#114
i will use my car to test it with, the passenger door will however need an additional ground to be bolted down since that circuit requires a little more ingenuity to control and protect both switches, since you cannot get both power and ground without one switch still being loaded otherwise. with 3 451's(6 bosch type) no additional ground would be needed making it more of a true plug and play kit, i would prefer to keep it simpler to one relay per door but we will see.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-12-15 at 06:41 PM.
11-12-15, 06:37 PM
#115
i will use my car to test it with, the passenger door will however need an additional ground to be bolted down since that circuit requires a little more ingenuity to control and protect both switches, since you cannot get both power and ground without one switch still being loaded.
I have not used one of these 451 units, but I did the relay mod in my 90 vert years ago, using Tyco bosch style relays. It only takes two per motor. I expect that if the 451's are really just a double SPDT relay, then it will work the same.
Have you looked over the old Icemark relay mod diagrams?
11-12-15, 06:43 PM
#116
nope i haven't looked at what he did, was it a plug and play kit mod as well? the issue i'm presented with is i am trying to use solely the wiring in the connectors. but if needed a ground could be added, i'd just like to remove the need to take the door panel off to install this mod. keeping that in mind and using the black/blue wire for power to the passenger door, the ground through the original wiring is still arcing at both switches to the motor, unless a totally separate ground point is used.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-12-15 at 06:47 PM.
11-12-15, 06:52 PM
#117
nope i haven't looked at what he did, was it a plug and play kit mod as well? the issue i'm presented with is i am trying to use solely the wiring in the connectors. but if needed a ground could be added, i'd just like to remove the need to take the door panel off to install this mod. keeping that in mind and using the black/blue wire for power to the passenger door, the ground through the original wiring is still arcing at both switches to the motor, unless a totally separate ground point is used.
https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generati...relays-821299/
From Icemark himself:
The factory S4 power window switch is rated to 15 amp, while the factory S5 power window switch is only rated to 10 amps.
This means, using a P&B (Potter Brumfeild) or DEI 40/30 Relay you are doubling or tripling the current capability of the switch.
This means the likelihood of contact failure is almost complete eliminated. I would not consider ever putting a new power window switch in, that I didn't wire up to relays.
Also, I wouldn't wire the passengers switch up like that. I would use the existing wiring for the power that runs to the drivers side, and not use independent power so that you can retain the lock out feature of the drivers switch.
This means, using a P&B (Potter Brumfeild) or DEI 40/30 Relay you are doubling or tripling the current capability of the switch.
This means the likelihood of contact failure is almost complete eliminated. I would not consider ever putting a new power window switch in, that I didn't wire up to relays.
Also, I wouldn't wire the passengers switch up like that. I would use the existing wiring for the power that runs to the drivers side, and not use independent power so that you can retain the lock out feature of the drivers switch.
11-12-15, 07:13 PM
#118
i may just be overthinking it. the ground contacts are always closed however i always picture both rockers moving when using the switch, i will have to look at the switches a little more in detail internally to determine that. it still just concerns me that the driver switch will still be arcing the ground during activation, defeating the purpose, unless using an alternate ground source.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-12-15 at 07:19 PM.
11-12-15, 11:19 PM
#119
i may just be overthinking it. the ground contacts are always closed however i always picture both rockers moving when using the switch, i will have to look at the switches a little more in detail internally to determine that. it still just concerns me that the driver switch will still be arcing the ground during activation, defeating the purpose, unless using an alternate ground source.
11-12-15, 11:32 PM
#120
not exactly, look at the factory wiring diagram. the power and ground alternately pass through the driver then passenger window switch. the power can be passively pulled from the lockout switch wire. the ground still passes through the switches in order to be used as a main relay feed to power the window motors(ie high load current), unless a ground bypass is used.
as far as i'm concerned, a ground wire directly to the door is the only way to 100% take the load off both switches completely(unless a relay is used before/after each switch to convert it) for the passenger side door. that is how mark's diagram is written, just not detailed in that respect. if not, unfortunately i believe it is incorrect. i would not trust that the millisecond for the relay to activate will not arc the switch, and it still carries the amps even if it is just a ground. power travels in a loop, beit positive or negative.
2 451's can be used if you ground the one in the passenger side and use the lockout 12v switched. 3 451's can be used to passively bypass all switches while using all factory wiring(think of this as if each relay leapfrogs over each switch). in the end, 2 relays is probably still a simpler and more reliable route to go but it will require a good ground point on the passenger door.
as far as i'm concerned, a ground wire directly to the door is the only way to 100% take the load off both switches completely(unless a relay is used before/after each switch to convert it) for the passenger side door. that is how mark's diagram is written, just not detailed in that respect. if not, unfortunately i believe it is incorrect. i would not trust that the millisecond for the relay to activate will not arc the switch, and it still carries the amps even if it is just a ground. power travels in a loop, beit positive or negative.
2 451's can be used if you ground the one in the passenger side and use the lockout 12v switched. 3 451's can be used to passively bypass all switches while using all factory wiring(think of this as if each relay leapfrogs over each switch). in the end, 2 relays is probably still a simpler and more reliable route to go but it will require a good ground point on the passenger door.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 11-13-15 at 12:11 AM.
11-13-15, 10:30 AM
#121
not exactly, look at the factory wiring diagram. the power and ground alternately pass through the driver then passenger window switch. the power can be passively pulled from the lockout switch wire. the ground still passes through the switches in order to be used as a main relay feed to power the window motors(ie high load current), unless a ground bypass is used.
as far as i'm concerned, a ground wire directly to the door is the only way to 100% take the load off both switches completely(unless a relay is used before/after each switch to convert it) for the passenger side door. that is how mark's diagram is written, just not detailed in that respect. if not, unfortunately i believe it is incorrect. i would not trust that the millisecond for the relay to activate will not arc the switch, and it still carries the amps even if it is just a ground. power travels in a loop, beit positive or negative.
2 451's can be used if you ground the one in the passenger side and use the lockout 12v switched. 3 451's can be used to passively bypass all switches while using all factory wiring(think of this as if each relay leapfrogs over each switch). in the end, 2 relays is probably still a simpler and more reliable route to go but it will require a good ground point on the passenger door.
as far as i'm concerned, a ground wire directly to the door is the only way to 100% take the load off both switches completely(unless a relay is used before/after each switch to convert it) for the passenger side door. that is how mark's diagram is written, just not detailed in that respect. if not, unfortunately i believe it is incorrect. i would not trust that the millisecond for the relay to activate will not arc the switch, and it still carries the amps even if it is just a ground. power travels in a loop, beit positive or negative.
2 451's can be used if you ground the one in the passenger side and use the lockout 12v switched. 3 451's can be used to passively bypass all switches while using all factory wiring(think of this as if each relay leapfrogs over each switch). in the end, 2 relays is probably still a simpler and more reliable route to go but it will require a good ground point on the passenger door.
11-19-15, 11:30 AM
#123
MECP Certified Installer
Thread Starter
So now my driver side switch broke. Brittle plastic piece of junk. I can still operate the windows but the plastic tabs that hold the switch in place broke and now the switch is all ***** nilly.26yr old car!
12-22-17, 07:44 AM
#125
Reviving an old thread...
First big thanks to the OP, I used your write-up to add the 451m's to my S5T2 and they work flawlessly. I did one 451 in each door to relieve the current thru all switches. Anyway, I've got a new question - elsewhere in this post it was mentioned that you could use a DEI 529T to add one-touch up/down functionality to one window. Since I happened to acquire a 529T recently, I'd like to add the one touch up/down function to my driver's side window. I'm a bit stumped though, as the DEI wiring diagrams assume you're using it with an alarm system (I'm not) and was hoping someone might help.
So I removed the 451m from my driver's side door and have the wiring there back to stock. According to the DEI 529T install guide, the RX7 has a "Type A" circuit, meaning when the PW switch is resting in it's neutral position, both legs of the PW motor are connected to ground. So following along with the DEI diagram for the 529T, I'm supposed to cut the RX7's Red/Black (UP) wire; connect the PW switch side of this wire to the White wire on the 529T, and then connect the Green wire on the 529T to the Red/Black (UP) motor side wire. Similarly, for the DOWN side (Green/Black wire in the RX7), I cut that wire and connect the Brown wire on the 529T to the PW switch side, and the Blue wire on the 529T to the motor side.
The Red wire on the 529T is connected to the Black/Red (Switched +12V) wire in the RX7. The DEI manual says that should be tied to a constant +12V, but since I'm not using it with an alarm system, and only when the car is operating, this shouldn't matter correct?
The black wire on the 529T connects to ground. Hooked up like this, and with all the remaining 529T wires unconnected to anything, the window works normally up & down, but there is no "one touch" up or down operation going on. So the question is, what do I do with the remaining 4 wires from the 529T to have it behave as I want? To be specific, when I give the PW switch a quick push, I want the window to go all the way up or down, depending which direction I push. If I hold the switch, I should be able to control the window up/down to any intermediate position. The remaining wires & functions on the 529T are (per DEI instructions):
Gray - (-) Output thru activation, side 1
Orange - (-) Activation input, side 1
Gray/Black - (-) Output thru activation, side 2
Orange/Black - (-) Activation input, side 2
Anyone know where to go from here? Thanks!
First big thanks to the OP, I used your write-up to add the 451m's to my S5T2 and they work flawlessly. I did one 451 in each door to relieve the current thru all switches. Anyway, I've got a new question - elsewhere in this post it was mentioned that you could use a DEI 529T to add one-touch up/down functionality to one window. Since I happened to acquire a 529T recently, I'd like to add the one touch up/down function to my driver's side window. I'm a bit stumped though, as the DEI wiring diagrams assume you're using it with an alarm system (I'm not) and was hoping someone might help.
So I removed the 451m from my driver's side door and have the wiring there back to stock. According to the DEI 529T install guide, the RX7 has a "Type A" circuit, meaning when the PW switch is resting in it's neutral position, both legs of the PW motor are connected to ground. So following along with the DEI diagram for the 529T, I'm supposed to cut the RX7's Red/Black (UP) wire; connect the PW switch side of this wire to the White wire on the 529T, and then connect the Green wire on the 529T to the Red/Black (UP) motor side wire. Similarly, for the DOWN side (Green/Black wire in the RX7), I cut that wire and connect the Brown wire on the 529T to the PW switch side, and the Blue wire on the 529T to the motor side.
The Red wire on the 529T is connected to the Black/Red (Switched +12V) wire in the RX7. The DEI manual says that should be tied to a constant +12V, but since I'm not using it with an alarm system, and only when the car is operating, this shouldn't matter correct?
The black wire on the 529T connects to ground. Hooked up like this, and with all the remaining 529T wires unconnected to anything, the window works normally up & down, but there is no "one touch" up or down operation going on. So the question is, what do I do with the remaining 4 wires from the 529T to have it behave as I want? To be specific, when I give the PW switch a quick push, I want the window to go all the way up or down, depending which direction I push. If I hold the switch, I should be able to control the window up/down to any intermediate position. The remaining wires & functions on the 529T are (per DEI instructions):
Gray - (-) Output thru activation, side 1
Orange - (-) Activation input, side 1
Gray/Black - (-) Output thru activation, side 2
Orange/Black - (-) Activation input, side 2
Anyone know where to go from here? Thanks!