ramses666

iTrader: (1)

I have a '62 Volvo Jenson P1800, a '70 Datsun 240Z & an '88 S4... The Jenson built Volvo is quite interesting as an early example of a "Cosmopolitan" vehicle built with parts from many different Countries.

Decoding the Swedish wiring diagram was easy. The wiring harness is in excellent shape & the overall design is simple & functional. The Oil & Water Temp gauges have the hard lines, but are sealed with a sensor tip & stupid expensive to have rebuilt... But the gauges all look fantastic!

The 240Z is the same basic truck-type engine - just bigger -and Stupidly Simple as well... I had learned to work on my Uncle's 240 as a teenager & will pass that Z on to my Nephew... I haven't had to address anything particularly stupid on that vehicle, but had helped my Uncle change the Caster-Camber & lower swing-arm pivot locations for some Bump-Steer Problems he had crossing the Golden Gate Bridge in high Winds... The Hitachi Carbs are just Jap versions of the Volvo SU's.

The S4 scared the bejesus out of me when my father passed it on to me... It was just so Different... Took me about 2-3 years of studying on this Forum before I felt comfortable doing anything...

I'd always worked on others people's vehicles... It never mattered what kind, but the Rotary? Even though I'd grown up with my Dad's Rx-3 wagon in the 70's & friends in high school with bridge-ported-Rx-3 coups & Dad's S4 in '88... The 7 was intimidating... Like a Weird-Science Project that shouldn't be allowed to function... & I was Immediately Hooked...

Comparison-wise, the S-4 seemed hobbled by economy, emissions, doo-dads & a Voodoo Computer that Refused any type of Negotiation... but Otherwise a huge improvement in ride, handling & finesse...

I'm glad I have all 3 to tinker with & upgrade... The Volvo P1800 is by far the Most Enjoyable to work on & has upgrades patiently waiting in their boxes to be installed. I got over my Initial Rotary Inhibitions & found them to be quite fascinating & infuriatingly addictive.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I absolutely love the styling of the Volvo P1800. The difference in the Swedes' and the Brits also comes through in their engineering.

British cars are generally thrown together with little regard for safety or proper engineering, in my opinion.

The Swedes build their vehicles like tanks. The older Saabs were stupidly complex and bizarre, but were comfortable and had weight to them. Made them feel solid. Any Volvo is built with occupant safety in mind. The cars themselves are a bit strange to get around, but generally are tough and rugged. The same can not be said about their transmissions though. The engines are bulletproof, the transmissions are held together with paste and prayers, and the axles are one good shunt away from snapping in half.

It's a shame there really is not any one car that is with out sin. Every single car in existence compromises or does something in one way to basically ruin it. Whether it be a styling cue that makes visibility difficult, to flimsy plastic, to poor suspension designs, and so on. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but something that I keep in mind. There is no one perfect car or anything for that matter that has everything done "right". There is always a compromise.

ramses666

iTrader: (1)

I find it fascinating how similar the engines are. I have a Yanmar 6 liter Turbo-diesel in my Aluminum Marine-Jeep Survey Boat. It's just the Z engine on Steroids & stupidly simple & reliable. The 44 pound stainless 4 blade prop is impressive... Unfortunately, the Mercruiser Bravo 2X Diesel Outdrive is just not strong enough & a shear spline for the prop is the only thing to save a foolishly heavy throttle from shredding the top bearing in the drive unit.

I'm looking at a Fancy Italian made 18-speed hydro-static jet-drive unit to replace it. It really sounds like a Jet Engine at full throttle... I need to build a proper air-box for it to quiet the Turbo down...

Most all the old marine engines were similar in many ways... The camshaft in the Volvo was changed to a D-cam from a more modern Marine-only version of the same engine. I got lucky with a modern distributor that had the proper settings for that cam... I couldn't imagine trying to rig an old mechanical distibutor for a Cam that never used one.

I really kinda feel bad for modern mechanics... I've got it made compared to any of the pain-in -the-neck Modern Vehicles coming out these days... It's seems like mostly just a throw away culture instead of Timeless Class, Style & Mediocre Performance of Decades Past...

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i enjoy learning a bit of a foreign language, but looking up anything in those books is like a choose your own adventure... much prefer the Mazda way, which has both.

the British cars start out after WWII ok, but they mismanage their success to the point where they have 1950's cars for sale in 1980. its a bit like Ford, actually, who literally sold 50's trucks into the 90's.

anyways, if you drive say a 1980 MGB and then hop into a Lancia Scorpion, the Lancia feels like a space ship.

or another example, i have a comparison test of an MGB (1962), 280ZX(1969) and Rx7(1979), because they were all sold new at the same time.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I personally am a big fan of Motor and OnDemand diagrams that are colored and highlightable. You can select a wire, and only that wire, follow it to your destination and make custom diagrams based on what you select.

With all of the auto lines I work on, I always have to do a quick blast of OJT just to remember how to read the schematics. Usually it's a color code variance that trips me up, or a connector designation. Most wiring diagrams are really the same, just laid out slightly differently.

I do hate MB and Volvo diagrams. They label components as two or three digit alpha-numerals, so you have to have a lookup chart as you go. It's a pain to have to print out three pages of codes, just for a small wiper circuit. They list the components alphabetically, so lots of wasted paper some days.


What I really do not care for is the insistence of automakers to come up with new names for the same components.

You have your intake manifold runner control flaps, or tumble valves, or induction valves, or a dynamic intake system actuator, or VDI for that matter. It's all the same stuff, just on a different car.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i work at a large wholesaler now, and we argue about that stuff all the time, shock vs strut is the classic one. the funny bit is we just spent like 4 months arguing about shock vs strut, and then Motors changed the definition.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Did they change it to "suspension damper" or "hydraulic damper"?

ramses666

iTrader: (1)

Hey! You guys might know something about this - I was looking at alternative modern drivetrains for my 3 projects. I saw the '06 Mazdaspeed6 & the Volvo V70 wagon as possible "Donor vehicles" for the S4 & the P1800 for an AWD upgrade.

Any experience with these drivelines? Pretty common these day. I was looking at all the different applications of this family:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AWTF-80_SC

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I have lots of experience, actually.

The Speed6 rear end is total trash. Stock Speed6s break mounts and axles. I worked with a guy who was a Mazda tech and he said that the engines are fine, but the rear end and suspension was the biggest cause of their warranty comebacks.


As far as using the transmission you linked, that thing is a heavy brute and is tough. Only problem is that it's designed for transverse mounting. The Volvo engine and grearbox together are heavy as hell. Then you factor in the heavy rear diff with the in-built coupling unit and the three piece driveline. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty certain that the width of the Volvo bay is wider than the FC. I'm certain it's much wider than the P1800. You would basically have to "Project Binky" the front end and firewall off the car and build an entire support structure. I do not think these engines are short enough to clear the hood, either.

If you want AWD, you would be better off fitting a GTR transplant, but I think that would put the engine too far forward in the bay, totally trashing weight balance and handling. I know that the old FB AWD Rally car used a Mitsubishi Pajero (Montero) transfer case and a custom front diff.


Other teams used a B2600 transfer case (I think) with a solid rear axle, such as this one.

https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generati...rx-7-a-498634/




The biggest issue of an AWD Rx7 is where the engine normally lives, which is front mid-ship. Most AWD cars are front engined, so they sit 6+ inches forward. Short of a custom front diff, which you can purchase, you really would be hard pressed to find a suitable donor vehicle to accomplish that kind of swap.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Your proposal leapfrogs over the "engine swap" category and lands in "build a car from scratch" land.
I don't see much left of your S4 besides the exterior body panels, so what's the point?
In fact, I'd bet you'd get a better outcome if you started with the Speed6 and tried to graft the FC bodyshell onto it's platform rather than shoehorn the later hardware into the FC chassis.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I asked the same question in a different thread. Prepare yourself.

ramses666

iTrader: (1)

Yeah... I appreciate the warnings & comments... Basically a shell swap for modern conveniences. I was curious about a transverse mounting of maybe a renesis powered/AWD thing with an FC Shell & wide-body... Would it fit? Suspension & all... Remove the FC subframes completely.

I could conceivably do the same to each vehicle with a Modern Version of Mazda, Volvo & Datsun/Nissan engines & drivelines. The prices of possible donor vehicles are getting really low & all-new parts are expensive. It's all just pieces... Modern electronics are more able to come together than just a few years ago perhaps?

You guys mess with modern stuff... What would you do? I have my Uncle's Flame Suit On...

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I don't mess with new stuff, in fact, I actively avoid it.
Specifically, I dislike electronics while simultaneously admiring their capabilities.

There's an older Mighty Car Mods episode where Gramps (a heavily modified Subaru stationwagon with thousands of dollars worth of Haltech engine management stuff installed) gets left outside at the paintshop and drenched in a surprise rainstorm. The entire electrical system was a writeoff, they reshelled the car to get a new main chassis harness and all the Haltech stuff was replaced.
I guarantee that the totally analogue Z would have survived and run after a similar mishap.

A core tenet of my "Because Streetcar!" ethos is "Can I fix it myself?" and that pretty much eliminates any computer based tech and quite a bit of more basic electrical tech as well.
Being not only the youngest in my neighborhood but also one of the few "Car Guys", I'm often called when things go wrong and by far the most common complaints are things that don't impact the actual running of the car, but are convenience geegaws. Like power windows/locks (I'll bet 30% of the power windows in the area don't work) or Lexus displays that have dimmed to illegibility (so you can't operate the HVAC system).

It's not the basic car that fails people, it's all the extraneous frippery that becomes overwhelming as it falters. If you can't turn on the AC and your windows won't roll down, your Lexus is no better than a Lada.

What does this have to do with the thread?
Not a goddamn thing.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

Aside from the drenched electronics, they were more concerned about water getting into body seams that were never sealed or designed for that. You can have water all along the outside of a car just fine, but even a simply sunroof or convertible top leak will wreck a car in the course of a few years.

Sure, a Z would most definietly run, but I would worry about corrosion getting into the ignition switch.





Now back on target. Have you come up with a gauge plate design you like? White looks off in the FC, but I don't think its as simple as painting dials.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I have a set of stock Miata black dial faces and could switch them anytime.
At the same time I'd probably swap in the VDO water and oil gauges but I've been distracted by lighting- specifically, changing to LEDs, which is way more expensive than I thought.

I can't decide if it's worth it because of the old fashioned diffuser system and the generally murky nature of the Miata dials (the black ones are permanently green tinted on the back)...I'm thinking no amount of money will bring them to the level of a more modern cluster.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

I happen to have an FC and 6. And, as it happens, the 6 and FC engine bays are both 33 inches between the strut towers - but you do have to subtract about 1.5 inches lower down on each side for the frame rails in the FC, which is not so in the 6. More significantly, the 6 drivetrain (V6 manual in my case) is almost entirely in front of the centerline of the front tires - to the tune of 20", vs the FC's drivetrain being essentially entirely behind the centerline of the front axles, for a front-midship layout that gives the car near perfect front/rear weight balance, and a low polar moment of momentum, which contributes greatly to the RX-7's handling agility. On the FC, the 6 drivetrain swap could have the valve cover into the rad support - it definitely precludes a stock rad placement. The turbo 4 drivetrain shouldn't be as deep (wide), but the turbo and plumbing could make most of that up, and almost certainly will want to be where the steering rack is. Not that you could keep the FC front suspension anyway, save maybe the lower control arm, possibly combined with the steering knuckle and possibly the strut from a Speed3 (the elaborate multi-link setup of the 6 would be out of the question on an FC - and it's heavy).

But at this point you're re-engineering both the engine location and suspension of the FC, and we haven't even gotten power to the back yet (you might get to keep the FC rear, using a custom/modified driveshaft - although matching gearing front to rear is critical on AWD, and the FC doesn't have a lot of gearing options. At this point, you're probably better creating a tube frame chassis, stick the Speed6 suspension and drivetrain under it, and mount the FC shell over/around it. But then you'd just have a tube-frame Speed 6 that looks like an FC, and you could have just bought a nice Speed6 and enjoyed it for what it is. Or turbo-swapped your S4, or swap a VG30 or LS, proven, reasonably cost-effective solutions that would give the FC a ton more torque and therefore get-up-and-go, without really spoiling the handling that makes the FC such a pleasure. Or, build a Locost and use your FC drivetrain as a donor, the relatively limp power of an NA FC would become much zoomier in a car that weighed less than half.

ACR_RX-7

iTrader: (1)

I know we are talking stock replacement units here, but if you ever decided to swap out the PCM for an aftermarket controller, say a Megasquirt, you could run MSDroid and section in a tablet.

Newer Land Rovers and Jaguars use tablet style displays in their newer clusters.

Or, IQ3s

Akaviri

iTrader: (1)

I wonder if anyone has succeeded in swapping the 6-speed RX-8 transmission into an FC? I wouldn't bother trying to swap a transmission from a front-wheel drive car, just because it's also a Mazda doesn't mean that those two platforms are at all related.

Also, I've backtracked through this thread many pages but it's very scattered and inconsistent. I wanted to know what the updates were on the red S5 GTU that started this thread! It seems it's been almost completely sidelined by other projects.

clokker

iTrader: (2)

The red GTU just got it's engine swapped ( a few pages ago...).

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

the old definition of a shock vs strut was if you could remove it from the car without the car falling on the ground. if it stays up, like nothing happened its a shock, if it fell over its a strut.

the new definition is if the damper locates any suspension geometry or not.

so the thing in the back of a pickup truck, was always a shock, and the front of an FC was always a strut, but the REAR of the FC changes, as it failed the old test.

or the one we are trying to figure out today is the older Ford power stroke diesels have a high pressure oil pump to run the injectors, typically everyone else seems to get by with electricity and ford's better idea is to use an oil pump.

we don't know if we should call it an injection pump, high pressure injection pump, or high pressure injection oil pump. i think we're going to go with the High Pressure injection Oil Pump, because the slang is an HPOP. its pretty neat too, if you type Hpop in, you'll get the part now.

so we know how to have fun on a friday, right?

clokker

iTrader: (2)

I prefer to think it's flexible and inclusive, room for all sorts of unexpected info.

lduley

iTrader: (1)

And shenanagins

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

and a wafer thin mint

clokker

iTrader: (2)

Well, this is bizarre.
I've been housesitting at Sigfrid's since Thursday, time that I usually spend working on the Z, but I haven't found anything that needs doing...the car is totally functional.
Sure, there's unfinished business (like the door panels) and S. doesn't like the seats much (I think they're fine but one man's Barcalounger is another man's cinderblock) but from a strictly operational standpoint there's just nothing to do.

I'm flushing and filling the coolant loop- more from curiosity than need and then I'd happily drive her to Chicago if the occasion called for it...check tire pressure and go.
At this point I have more confidence in the Datsun than my FC (which is fine except for the noisy exhaust).

Ha!
We built a car.

Akaviri

iTrader: (1)

Didn't mean to slander this thread, it's actually one of my favorites. You should take some final, wallpaper-worthy photos of the Z.