ABS to convert or not...?
09-22-05, 03:18 PM
#1
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ABS to convert or not...?
Toughs of you with ABS and more so the ones that have / drive FC's with both ABS and non-ABS let me know how you feel.
Is it worth the effort and time to convert a S4GTU to use the ABS brake system?
Is it worth the effort and time to convert a S4GTU to use the ABS brake system?
09-22-05, 03:24 PM
#2
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Absolutely not. It's my opinion that ABS is one of the most intrusive automotive systems every invented. ABS is for lazy drivers who don't know how to brake properly. Someone using correct braking technique will always outstop and ABS equipped vehicle.
09-22-05, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Absolutely not. It's my opinion that ABS is one of the most intrusive automotive systems every invented. ABS is for lazy drivers who don't know how to brake properly. Someone using correct braking technique will always outstop and ABS equipped vehicle.
09-22-05, 06:52 PM
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If you install so that you have a switch to turn it off when you want then I'd say do it! I have been thinking about doing that myself but just have a million other things I want to do first.
09-22-05, 06:56 PM
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Start pricing out the ABS parts though............if you are unable to find some key components used, they are outrageous from the dealer or Mazdatrix
I agree with the statement that I feel my car stops more reliably than any other vehicle I have driven with ABS.
Whenever the ABS starts kicking in, I feel like I am losing control of the car because I find it more difficult to get the ABS to stop and regain the "feel" for the road
I agree with the statement that I feel my car stops more reliably than any other vehicle I have driven with ABS.
Whenever the ABS starts kicking in, I feel like I am losing control of the car because I find it more difficult to get the ABS to stop and regain the "feel" for the road
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09-22-05, 07:20 PM
#8
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I have evrything I need allready for ABS. It would be a matter of mounting the master and runing the new hard lines. For me as a driver I do not care for ABS but it is a 16yr well 17yr old girls car wih alot of HP. So I figured :-/ maybe, maybe not.
IMHO the ABS in my FE is ok and the DSC hell if its good enough for fomula one it can be good but our systems are far from a F1 system and about 3million dollors short.
Like I said I have never drove a FC with ABS and I am asking evryone how they feel, thanks so far.
IMHO the ABS in my FE is ok and the DSC hell if its good enough for fomula one it can be good but our systems are far from a F1 system and about 3million dollors short.
Like I said I have never drove a FC with ABS and I am asking evryone how they feel, thanks so far.
09-22-05, 07:21 PM
#9
Old-gen ABS (what you'd be swapping in) is worse than a properly controlled human.
Brand new ABS, I'm not so sure. It's pretty damn good at what it does, and since a human only has one control over the entire brake system, a 4-channel ABS can arguably be more efficient in braking during cornering/braking, because it can give more braking power to the wheels that have better grip.
Is it worth converting a non-ABS '7 to an ABS '7 using the FC technology ABS? I don't think so.
-=Russ=-
Brand new ABS, I'm not so sure. It's pretty damn good at what it does, and since a human only has one control over the entire brake system, a 4-channel ABS can arguably be more efficient in braking during cornering/braking, because it can give more braking power to the wheels that have better grip.
Is it worth converting a non-ABS '7 to an ABS '7 using the FC technology ABS? I don't think so.
-=Russ=-
09-22-05, 07:22 PM
#10
ABS on the FC's weighs over 20 lbs, i removed 21lbs from my car by eliminating it
all it does is make it impossible to remove your turbo/header and doesnt work and leaks brake fluid all over your fender wall
i have only met one person that has a fully functioning abs in his FC and his FC is so cherry that it doesnt suprise me although its 210k miles original part
not to mention you cant rebuild the ABS and they cost upwards of $2k if they even make them anymore so good luck finding one that works
just throw this idea in the garbage and burn it.
FC ABS=BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD
all it does is make it impossible to remove your turbo/header and doesnt work and leaks brake fluid all over your fender wall
i have only met one person that has a fully functioning abs in his FC and his FC is so cherry that it doesnt suprise me although its 210k miles original part
not to mention you cant rebuild the ABS and they cost upwards of $2k if they even make them anymore so good luck finding one that works
just throw this idea in the garbage and burn it.
FC ABS=BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD
09-22-05, 07:31 PM
#11
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I personally feel that newer (4-channel) ABS systems have control far beyond any human's ability since they can individually modulate each corner. HOWEVER, our beloved FC's ABS sucks, as does pretty much every older ABS system. Save the weight, and leave it off.
"At the Toudou school we disconnect the ABS on all of our cars. Until you learn to brake properly without it, you cannot brake properly with it."
Sorry, had to throw in the initial D quote. lol
"At the Toudou school we disconnect the ABS on all of our cars. Until you learn to brake properly without it, you cannot brake properly with it."
Sorry, had to throw in the initial D quote. lol
09-23-05, 09:44 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by IaMtHeRuThLeSs1
Pretty bold statement, could you prove it? Do you know of some study thats been done on this subject?
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/proble...absbrakes.html
Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without? ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or slippery conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.
Strictly speaking, antilock braking isn't a racing technique, since most race cars don't utilize antilock braking. There are two primary reasons for this: 1) It isn't entirely clear that antilock braking will reduce stopping distance for the skilled driver; and 2) Antilock brakes add system complexity, cost and weight to the race car, the disadvantages of which outweigh any possible advantages.
I said earlier that it isn't entirely clear that ABS will reduce stopping distance for the race car driver. It is very clear that it will reduce stopping distance for the everyday driver -- except perhaps in loose gravel or loose snow -- but that's not its primary purpose. The primary function of ABS is to enable the driver to steer the car while braking at maximum effectiveness.
Anti-lock brake systems can stop more quickly than conventional brakes on wet paved surfaces and on icy or packed snow-covered roads. Stopping distances can be longer on loose gravel or freshly fallen snow, although drivers won't experience the lock-up of the wheels usually associated with conventional hard braking. Therefore, drivers will still have the ability to steer around objects in front of them—such as another car.
However, cars with anti-lock brakes are up to 65% more likely to be in fatal crashes than cars without them, says a new US study. It appears that the problem isn't with the technology, it's poor driving habits and lack of driver awareness on how the brakes operate. Driver who rely on technology instead of better driving habits to improve safety are driving down a dangerous road.
Anti-lock brakes are designed to keep cars from going into a skid when the brakes are applied in an emergency. Designed to allow the driver steering control, ABS brakes work by automatically actuating the brakes on and off during emergency stops. They are effective in helping drivers avoid accidents. In certain situations, ABS brakes can help to shorten stopping distances.
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety has issued statements claiming anti-lock brakes do not provide a substantially shorter stopping distance on dry pavement nor have they reduced the number of crashes in vehicle insurance claims.
According to RCMP and Transport Canada research, some ABS work exceptionally well, but others, particularly in some domestic cars, trucks and SUVs, take longer to stop the vehicle - longer, in fact, than conventional brakes under identical conditions.
Contrary to popular belief, says Klatt, anti-lock brakes don't help the tires stop automobiles any quicker. "They just stop them more safely. Even so, as road and weather conditions deteriorate, a safe and prudent driver reduces speed. The faster you go, the less time you have to make decisions and the bigger the bang when you hit
"A skilled driver in a conventional car, pumping the pedal and allowing the car to slide very slightly at each braking application, will stop in a shorter distance while still easing his braking enough to allow the car to steer."
ABS brakes are fine for your average soccer mom who just stabs the brake pedal as hard as she can in an emergency. They prevent the wheels from locking up, prevent a skid and allow her to steer the vehicle (but we all know she won't. She'll just hit the brakes and hope for the best). Threshold braking is the proper technique to bring a vehicle to a stop. In threshold braking, the driver modulates the brakes to keep the wheels just before the point of lockup. This is where the maximum braking force is available (any more and the tires loose traction). All drivers should know this technique, but of course most don't. ABS was developed to compensate for the average drivers lazyness, stupidness, and inadequate skills.
One of the first things my driving instructor did was compare ABS to proper braking, and it was clear that he stopping distances with ABS were much longer then when using threshold braking. In my own experience, the ABS in my Insight has got me into FAR more trouble then it has prevented by not allowing me control over the brakes. I have sine disabled it.
09-23-05, 09:56 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Aaron Cake
Absolutely not. It's my opinion that ABS is one of the most intrusive automotive systems every invented. ABS is for lazy drivers who don't know how to brake properly. Someone using correct braking technique will always outstop and ABS equipped vehicle.
A good example is the S2000 which I got a ride in on a track, braking from about 140-50 that car was generating the most braking force of any I have ever been in. Granted it was on R-comp tires.
That being said I removed my ABS system due to a number of reasons in order of importance.
1) the FC system is a dinosaur and much worse than newer systems, further it is notoriously unreliable and problematic. Mine had bad wheel sensors and a bad brake booster so it was always running the pump at misc times. Reliabillty and cost to make it work correctly were tops in my reason to remove.
2) I wanted a completly new braking system and i could not find a source other than mazda for the ABS booster.
3) Weight savings.
Modern ABS systems on performance cars can keep the car nearer to limit of adhesion durring threshold braking than the driver can, because, that is one of the functions they were designed for, not just to help bad drivers with car control.
Last edited by RockLobster; 09-23-05 at 10:01 AM.
09-23-05, 10:06 AM
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We're talking about the ABS system of the FC. But I stand by my statement based on my experiences with the ABS in my 2000 Insight. Most ABS systems that I have driven (Ford Focus, Toyota Echo, Chrysler Interpid, Dodge Neon, FD, Hybrid Civic, Prius, Kia Rio and a few other random ones) are horrid. Just at the point where I get the brakes where I want them, the ABS kicks in and the vehicle surges forward (ie. LESS braking).
Edit...To add to that, I'm sure there are some ABS systems that are very good. There will always be an example of a car that stops faster with ABS. But the majority of them out there are not very good.
Edit...To add to that, I'm sure there are some ABS systems that are very good. There will always be an example of a car that stops faster with ABS. But the majority of them out there are not very good.
Last edited by Aaron Cake; 09-23-05 at 10:10 AM.
09-23-05, 10:15 AM
#15
It is certainly true there is a VERY wide range whent it comes to the peformance of ABS systems. And american companies employed some horrid systems. Ford SUV and truck ABS systems were so bad driving down a washboard road would cause the brakes to not function at all.
But some of the new BMW, Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Porshe/Audi/VW and others are REALLY impressive.
The ABS system on my TUNDRA i cannot live without. It keeps the truck drivable in snow and rain. The ABS system on my FC i could not live WITH for any number of reasons.
Similar feelings I have about transmissions. I would hate a manual on my tundra but I would HATE an automatic on my FC.
But some of the new BMW, Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, Porshe/Audi/VW and others are REALLY impressive.
The ABS system on my TUNDRA i cannot live without. It keeps the truck drivable in snow and rain. The ABS system on my FC i could not live WITH for any number of reasons.
Similar feelings I have about transmissions. I would hate a manual on my tundra but I would HATE an automatic on my FC.
Last edited by RockLobster; 09-23-05 at 10:19 AM.
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