Thanks rotate!

Yes sir,

I spoke with Richard's brother yesterday. Very helpful and very nice. I absolutely love dealing with New Zealanders.

He informed me that the TKO600 is his best recommendation but it will not shift over 7000rpm reliably and that having the box faceplated is a must. He uses Liberty to perform this service on his TKO's. Unfortunately he's waiting a long time as well for this service as liberty is down for a few months.

 

This should give you an idea on the cutting needed for the bellhousing. This is how much cutting I did to front housing of my CTS-V T56 to clear the starter. I have just enough surface around the starter for silicone. Since the fd has a rear facing slave cylinder, I may be using the Fc housing as I really don't want to cut into that plate anymore.

Also be carefull using the fd/20b style oil pump on a 4 rotor. That pump on a 3 rotor starts to loose flow and pressure at 8,500 rpms. I'm not sure what that will translate too when you add a 4th rotor to lube.

 

Have you looked into the longevity of using the thinner 13b centre plates with the stationary gears installed?

 

If you are considering using a T-56 I recommend using the T-56 magnum. The triple synchros and larger gears and improved dynamics of that trans exceed using a T-56 from a GTO or F Body Camaro.
There are shifters also adapted for the RX-7 swap by Sikky and Norcal Auto. Mark at Norcal auto also sells the transmissions at an excellent price. He uses an unmodified T-56 Magnum in his 1100 HP Turbo LS-9 FD with no trans failures in 2 years of drag racing and roll racing the car.
He also road races an LS-7 FD with that trans. He is a very good resource and has build and swapped many RX-7's with Buick and LS motors. You can ask him about an adapter plate for your motor as well.
I've done business with Norcal auto and he is very knowledgable and has excellent prices.

 

Anyone know the strength of the OS Giken gearset? I've found a gearset, in-stock, and thinking of swapping out the gearset. These are apparently forged and shot-peened. R32 guys use these gear-sets up to 800-900rwhp. The close-ratio's are nice as well, for longer 1st to help utilize the 4 rotor torque.


Hey guys, so Im thinking of holding off on the t-56 until this CD009 kit is proven on the FD3S. I really like the feel of the 350z and would much rather wait and run this swap if there's no manual bellhousing method easily avail to t56.

 

Thanks zoom-zoom, magnum def sounds like the way to go if t56 ends up as the option! I will talk with Mark soon

 

does the t56 use the gm style flange. because if so does the new 13b to TKO bellhousing offered by dellowconversions.com.au work?

 

Are you going to start a new build thread or are you going to continue on this one?

If you are going to continue...post up some pics!!!!

 

Yes I will definitely start a new build thread! So far the car is in shambles, I stripped the whole thing down, looks like it got eaten by the chupacabra!

Not a single wire, not a single interior piece, nothing to show but a cracked windshield and half chiseled-off sound deadening material

Car is on the way to chassis shop for the cage and should be back in two weeks. Around Jan 1 should be some updates, we'll start putting together the paint booth in the storage unit and going MF'n ham!

Thanks dude!

 

Yes the t56 is GM, however, using the manual bellhousing poses a problem with start fitment. I'm not exactly sure the degree of clearance issues and/or how much could be grinded/worked up to fit the manual starter

I'm not entirely opposed to the auto-bellhousing / auto starter, but I'm thinking the cranking speed of the auto starter isn't going to be entirely satisfactory for 4 rotor rotational mass and the PPort. The 20b was way harder to spin than the 13b!

 

yea thats the main issue i have also anyone know what the KW on the 13b or 20b automatic starter is and can it bee beefed up like the manual starter

 

the autos I believe are already a 2kw which is what us 13b guys upgrade to.
you may find the 4 rotor to be easier to spin over then you think because of the overlap.

 

O really

 

Yea I think the 20b starter is more than capable. The motor body itself, is larger in diameter than the manuel starters. I'll have to check mine to make sure as I still have it.

 

Looking forward to reading the new build thread. Not only do I envy you for completing your 20b. But you have sold it and are doing my next dream.. A 26b fd! One day I will get there.. Until then I will live vicariously through you!
Good luck.

 

The higher power 2kw starter is fine for a 4-rotor. I have even used the normal 1.5kw one, which also worked, but only just.

Don't use the FD/20B oil pump. I tried it, it did not work. With my car the rear iron / transmission was in the stock location, so the engine sat on top of the steering rack. This made it impossible to build a good oil sump. I tried a 2-piece sump with lines between the 2 parts, but it didn't work that well. I also tried upping the oil pump output by increasing it's speed, but that's also not ideal. Currently converting mine to dry sump.

Not sure what you need to do with the transmission, mine is still the TII one, but I'm not turbocharged. Here in europe the BMW's GS6-53DZ / BZ boxes are often used for big power on a normal budget, but I'm not sure how they do at 10000rpm, and if they are as available and cheap over there as they are here. Seeing as your going PP with a turbo your probably looking to drag-race it?

 

Thanks guys!

John, regarding your advice on the pump/sump, you're right, a dry sump is most definitely ideal. However, according to PPRE, they've had great success with the tradition sump / 20b pump design in Mad Mike's original redbull 4 rotor with no pressure issues. I'm not sure the specifics but I will try to find out exactly what is modified.

I will check out that BMW box, I have heard of that swap, but I've never seen one locally.

To completely honest, I will likely never drag race this car. I'm building this for the novelty/insanity/challenge and as a show/highway machine. Here we have a big event in Texas, TX2K, with big horsepower lambo's, GTR, etc rolling races...it would be nice to show that the rotary can hang!

Choosing the turbo was not necessarily for 1200hp lol, moreso because N/A power was just a tad under my taste. I'm more than happy with 600-700rwhp, but its nice to think that power can be had at less to 10psi on pump gas. Less chances of knock / issues/ etc.

Anyhow, I've read tons and tons of your build, you're extremely talented and your work is awesome. I've seen your youtube videos cruising around, keep waiting for that WOT action!

 

Well, truth be told, there was more stuff wrong with my engine than just the sump and pump, so I don't exactly know what to blame. I hope whatever you use works well and if you have any questions please contact me as I might have some insight.

I might have missed it, but what turbo are you planning to use?, you really need a huuuuge hotside with a 26b pp, I don't think a s475 or so would cut it. Maybe if it was side port. I couldnt help but notice that the mad mike miata is side port aswell, It would make tuning a lot easier. I did notice that tuning the pp is more difficult because the wideband afr reading is off

 

Thanks John, there may definitely be some crazy questions to pop up down the road!

Well, the power goal is 750-850rwhp so the s480 w/ 1.32 T6 hotside will be used, it has 80mm compressor / 96mm exhaust side. Should flow up to around 900rwhp

I get the feeling that engine should make somewhere around 700-800rwhp around 8-12psi, and then anything beyond this point, the boost / power would begin to trail off at the upper rpms


Was it AFR's jumping around at low rpm's / low throttle from the overlap? Does at least clear up some in the upper rpms/load?

 

i use that bmw gearbox in my FC 20b racecar.....i can provide any info you need since i already made all mistakes possible.

total conversion cost will be about 3.5-4k depending on if you can weld the bellhousing to the gearbox yourselfe and if you can machine teh adapters for driveshaft and release bearing.
This includes everything from clutch/flywheel to gearbox and driveshaft/machining/bellhousing/starter and so on.
This gearbox will get you into the 8sec 1/4mile in a heavy *** bmw with 9k shiftpoints....its good

 

The problem with the 20b style pump is flow volume vs rpm. The small gear style pump can only move so much fluid. When you add an additional rotor to feed, it will just reach max volume sooner. It's kinda like a small turbo running out of breath on a larger displacement engine. In Mad Mike's case, I don't think Mad Mike is running his engine near red line to make his power. Since drifting is about torque, he may be keeping his engine in the 5-6k range. Now quick burst towards a 9k red line may be ok in very brief dyno moments but, by no means will it be safe for long durations as the lack of flow will cause the bearings to starve of oil. Remember, fluid pumps don't create pressure; only flow. Once you run out of flow, you will loose pressure. I have training in fluid dynamics as a hydraulic mechanic in the oil field. That's why I'm sharing this! It's these reasons why I wish someone in the aftermarket would make a larger style gear pump as an internal upgrade.

 

Thanks T-Von,

Something that Warren mentioned was "shimming" the oil pump or pressure regulator, can't remember which to increase the pressure. Then, each iron is tapped and fed externally via -AN fittings. Supposedly, this is suppose to overcome pressure drop issues and allow the engine to make enough flow/pressure to rev 9-10k. I'm sure there's even more things I'm leaving out.

I will try to get more details when I can, but I trust this guy as PPRE is one of the world leaders in quad rotors

 

About three weeks back I broke third gear with this gearset on a 2014 rebuilt box on my 13B time trial car with 480/380tq on a mustang dyno. Third gear lasted about the same as the last OEM tranny. I would not consider this a viable option, especially tied to a 20B.

 

what was happening when it broke?

Really sucks to hear that, that's an EXPENSIVE 3rd gear!~~~

I just don't get it. The 20b car made over 480ft/lbs of tq and never broke. Even had that transmission on the 13b making 380ft/lbs for a year prior. And Banzai racing is on these forums showing over 650ftlbs on triple-plate clutch no issues. Then there's guys having issues and blow up 5 transmissions.

Not saying I don't agree, I certainly agree that now, another trans option is a must for longevity! But, what do you think causes these trans to hold one day ft/lbs then let go on a the dyno?

Do you think its the gear itself being weak? The teeth sheering off because of simply heat/torque/weakness?

Could it be flexing of the transmission case, similar to what happens on the FD3S differential during wheels allowing the tolerances to stretch and blow out the torsen?

Perhaps transmission bracing/solid motor mounts/braced PPF might minimize these occurrences?




All speculations aside, I'll likely be running a Liberty built stock trans or a GTO transmission w/ ground housing to use manual starter/bellhousing

 

I think its a track vs street thing (or driving it on the street like it was a racetrack) atleast untill you are in the 600+ zone