Spac

Sorry for being cynical, but I would love to see a dyno chart from a 13B NA motor making more than 330hp. I know the old adage about PPs being more powerful than BPs, but with good EFI and correctly designed ports the modern reality is in the BPs favour.

*Maybe there's a difference in dyno calibrations between the two countries? I do remember seeing something in a magazine about one of our "top" street cars (a V8, BTW) making less power than an American tuner thought it should. The writer was 100% certain that everything was working as it should, and they decided there was probably a "divided by a common language" type issue going on (ie we can mean two different things by saying the same thing...).

Sorry about the wording re production based - that was my fault. I was just trying to make the point that I wasn't talking about 13Gs or the like.

scathcart

That's why iasked about the dyno. Are you referring to RWHP numbers? I was talking about an engine dyno (bhp).

Not anyone's fault about the term production based; we just don't use it up here. No apologies needed.

Sounds like you got a nice car. Where abouts OZ are you located?

BogusFile

You want a 700+ hp N/A 350? I can think of a dozen of them off of the top of my head. You can see them too.... on TV... during a nascar race. They also run at 6K+ RPM for hundreds of laps at a time. They have top of the line parts, but they are essentially plain jane Pushrod powered Chevy 350s. You can buy parts from Jeggs or summit and build a very similar motor. In fact a company called Jasper sells Crate motors for nascar that have 700+hp. There is no getting around it.. V8s have more speed potential than rotaries. Does that mean they are better? No not at all... it just means that they produce more of what you need to go fast.
There is alot of talk about making large displacement rotaries. Chevy did it in 70s, and they had a 4 rotor vette with 400+hp. I can't quite remember the C.I.s of the rotor and I don't feel like draging my book out. The reason you will never see a larger displacement rotary is because of emmisions(thats the reason chevy dropped the rotary after spending 2 billion dollars in the 70s for the liscensing to build rotarys), and lack of a need for it. Do you really think that mazda is going to build a 5.7 liter rotary? It wouldn't be cost effective, and it would be way to huge. Think about it..... take two 4 rotors at 2.6 liters and combine them. You now have a 5.2 litre motor that is nearly 6 feet long. Say you just make two or three large displacement rotor housings+rotors. It is going to be the size of a keg. Do you realize the amount of friction and heat a large displacement rotary would create? Do you know how difficult it would be to keep it cool? Not to mention the fact that all of the extra mass would put much more wear on some of the more delicate parts of the motor. I wonder how much the rotating assy. would weigh? I really don't think that mazda will ever make a rotary with much higher displacement than they already have. Mazda is supposedly developing a 14b engine to go into the next RX-7. If they are going to spend all of that extra money, time, and research into developing a new rotary, why wouldn't they make a larger jump in displacement than .1 liter. Lets make one thing clear... I love rotary engines, and I have owned nothing but RX-7s. My TII was a great car and I got 165K miles out of the original motor, and Im sure it is still running fine for the current owner. I own a V8 RX7 now because it is what I want... for lack of better words. I still keep up with all of the new rotary news, racing, etc....
and I am very supportive of mazda and the developement of the rotary engine. But, I am realistic...
and I know that Chevy 350s will always produce faster ETs, and lap times than rotaries untill some sort of major developement happens that eliminates all of the rotaries flaws. That will require us to break the laws of physics. Im not saying it won't happen, but I wouldn't wait up for it.

Felix Wankel

Probably not, some of the reading here is rather enjoyable.

Car options are wide open, leaning more toward something 1968+, American, and GM. (I have access to lots of SBC parts).

BogusFile

Chevy II dude

Felix Wankel

Only Novas I really like are the 68-72's.

BogusFile

Do you like Vegas? What year has the round tail lights?

scathcart

MMMM.... 1969 Chevy Camaro 396 SS, 4 speed, white leather, 8 track.
Though a 396 would be BB, eh? Shame....

BogusFile

396 is a decent motor... though the 454 is alot more desirable. The 2nd gen camaros had a factory 454 option.... and I must say... the split bumper is to die for!haha

Felix Wankel

Yes the 70-73 RS front end is very nice.

BlackSport0187

First off.........Jesus Christ man! Learn to use paragraphs to break up your thoughts! It makes reading your posts a real chore.

Secondly, I did read the whole post, thank you very much. No, I have never driven a LS1 Camaro, but I have driven an S5 NA RX-7, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize which is the faster car.

Lastly, I agree with you on a lot of things. I am as pro-rotary as they get, look up past V8 debates and you'll see what I mean. I have as much belief in the "little engine that can" as you do. You're not the only one who defends it.

Happy rotoring,
Isaac

P.S. It's "R-E-N-E-S-I-S" not "renisis".

Shady

Me too.

I mean RX7's are rare enough as it is, and there like the only sports/supercars to use rotaries, so I reckon LET them be like that. WHY out of so many different cars use an RX7? That is a serious question too.

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

WHY?

1) Because the RX-7 weighs 2700lbs-3000lbs which is 800+lbs lighter than an F-body.

2) It also handles better than an F-body even with the V8 instead of the rotary. The engine is still behind the front wheels, and there is plenty of room to work on it.

3) The RX-7 is NOT rare, in plentiful supply, and is cheap with blown motor (few hundred $).

4) Torque is fun

5) Cheap HP is fun

6) We are rednecks with mullets who only like V8s. Oh wait I'm BLACK so I can't be a redneck

BogusFile

RX-7s are not rare in the US. The reason we use the RX is because it has a great chassis, and there is enough room under the hood to put a big block in there. Nearly all of the V8 cars I know of were cars that were bought with bad motors, and good bodies(mine included). Not many people have taken out a perfectly good rotary to put a V8 in there. What you have to realize is that most people would send an FB or FC to the Junk Yard before they would worry about spending the money to get the motor rebuilt(excluding rotary enthusiast). Why waste a car like that.

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...&category=6327

Spac

geez kids...

I've already stated my views, and have no objection to anyone arguing about the worthiness of V8s (and therefore will not enter into arguments about whether sheer hP is the only concern, the cost of Nascar motors, etc etc...).
BUT, please, please make sure your facts are right...
To claim that 13Bs are at the limit of their power is ridiculous! A few years ago, people we hard pressed making 400hp from a turbo 13B. Now 800hp is "easy", provided you spend the money.

Look back 30 years and think how much power people were making from V8s then... Anyone know when the first production V8 came out? First readily available production rotary would be the R100, in the very late 1960s.... So how many more years development has the V8 had?

Back to worthwhile discussions...


Scathcart, All figures are at the flywheel. FWIW, the accepted norm here is to multiply the flywheel figure by 0.7 to get a rear wheel figure for most cars. IRS RWDs would possibly be more like 0.68 due to the extra drag from half-shafts and extra bearings. Most chassis dynos here are Dyno Dynamics rolling roads.

My car's OK. I bought it sight unseen, and not everything is as good as it was supposed to be, but I'm fixing that! I'm in Canberra (if that means anything to you?).

BlackSport0187

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Ok did anyone here not see scathcarts post on the 850 HP 4 rotor from Pineapple racing? Yes it is N/A yes it is $8500 and yes it is 2.6 liters. Some may say Geesh $8500 is bit spendy and I would agree, but in dollar amount per HP it is the same as any V8 crate motor. For example a Chevy 502C.I/502H.P. crate motor is $5k and a 300 HP 350 crate motor is is about $3k. So anyway thats that. As far as this Nascar motor how much is that motor? How long do those motors last since all racers here are bringing up reliablity to.
Black Sport I am gald to see you are still a Rotor fan and I know the 5.2 Liter rotary would be way to long I just wanted to say that the V8 crowd here god knows where they come from reminds me of the school bullys. Ya know when you where in 5th grade there was always the kid who was bigger that was in 7th grade and was actually a ***** against kids of equal size so he would go pick on one of the toughest 5th graders so he would look big. Well now that we have found this 2.6 Liter with 850 HP N/A (ROTARY) mind you I think that really settles up some V8 scores. A rotary 1/2 the size at best whoopin up on the V8 crowd. The sad thing is a turbo rotary 1.3 liter can whoop up on em in a lot of cases.
One more thing I have this RX7 book the title is (Sports Car Color History Mazda RX7) The Authors name is John Matras and this book can be bought from Barnes and Nobles. Anyone in here should like it as it does tell about the other car companys experimenting with the Rotary. Anyway in this book it talks about the building of the RX7 and here is a quote from Kobayakawa "With a heavier engine the car would require a stronger and therefore heavier chassis, an bigger and heavier radiator, and as weight was added to the powerplant and accesories even more weight would would be needed for the chassis to support it, the brakes to stop it and so on and so on."
What Kobayakawa did not want was "Zevolution," that process that had changed the original relatively Spartan Datsun 240Z into the boulevardier 300ZX.
So if Kobaykawa and his team of engineers obviously built the car from the chasis up around the rotary how do you justify the car will even hold up to carrying the V8 around. I mean these guys who built the car said they built it to hold that motor. You add a V8 you just threw all original specs right out the window.
Also I know the 850 Hp 4 rotor would be over kill and is probably not a realistic street motor and I personally would stick with the 13B turbo. So nascar has these motors that put out 700 HP Whoop Whoop They still not compare to the 2.6 liter rotary, and they are over twice the size. Like I said I have looked through HOT ROD and CAR CRAFT most of the cars that are in there are street driven muscle cars and Iam seeing no cars in there with a 700HP 350. Once again we could argue how much lbs of thrust the space shuttle has but it really does not matter. We are not racing a space shuttle nor are we racing Nascars or Top Fuel, or Funny Cars, hell most of will never even race Xtreme Street or any of that. Most of us here will be running against other street cars with V8s running maybe 400HP. I look at HOT ROD and CAR CRAFT and they are excited in there and do a big story when a guy has a 500 HP 400 or 454. Thats at the far end of most cars anyone of us will realistically go up against. Like I said where I am from a 400 HP car is a big thing. I dont know of anyone from Fargo taking a new ZO6 Vette or Viper out and racing it. There is a few Stangs and TAs and of course Camaros and a couple mid 80s Vettes. These guys are running between I suppose 205 HP with 84 Vette and maybe up to 400 HP as one guy here has a 87 TA with a 400 and Vortech heads on it that is moppin LS1 Camros. He mopped my little 86 SE to but oh well. I need a TurboII if not a FD and a few mods and I think I could give him a good run for his $$$.
Like I said I am not pro Drag racer I want a car that handles well and can hold its own in a little drag race grudge match on a Sat night and for me the 13B Turbo seems to be the perfect package for that. I figure for about $3500 with upgrades I could get around 350HP.
Also I did not realize my posts on here where gonna be graded like I was writing a speech for Grammer class. I like to just come on here and let the words flow from my head to the keyboard. I am not pencil pusher by day and my grammer could probably use a little work big deal. Thanks Again though Black Sport for still backing the Rotary up. After all everyone here must have loved the rotary at the time they bought there RX7. Its a shame to see some people trying to bash it because for what ever reason the rotary let them down. Please do not forget how old these cars are getting, I mean even a 93 FD is now even 10 yrs old. A 87 RX is 17 years old. These cars are old and yes piston technolgy has started to catch up somwhat to the old rotary but there is the new rotary on the horizon. Maybe some should explore that swap. Also anyone know how much the new rotary weighs? The V8 weight argument may once again be a Viable argument. I mean even if the new V8s are only 70 lbs heavier than the old salty rotarys just think of the lengths some people go through just to drop 10 lbs off the weight of there car. Now adding 70 is no big thing? Also the very 1st post on this thread said the aluminum small block alone was $4k what about the rest of thoe motor? What about the distributor and so on? I mean if one pays 4K just for a block are they really gonna wanna throw budget parts on it? I would not think so. A new LS1 crate motor also carries a hefty price tag of around $5k. Then you gotta add in the other extras no one ever thinks about till swap time. Like accesories, fuel pump and so on. You might as well but the 4 rotor from pineapple if all you care bout is HP and nothing else you would probably come out the same $$ wise plus a 4 rotor RX would be more original than a V8, plus faster. Remember there is always a trade off for anyhting you do you will lose somthing you loved about your RX when swithching to a V8 or even a 4 rotor.

BlackSport0187

Hey usmcjsy, you can always count on me to be here to back up the merits of the rotary engine. Nice quote from John Matras, if proves your point very well. That is a very good book, and I would recommend it to any rotary enthusiast.

You're okay in my book buddy,
Isaac

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Blacksport, glad the rotor heads can still count on ya
Bogus File: Ok I have the latest edition of Summit please got through there and pick out the parts I need with part #s so I can build my 700 HP 350 N/A that means stay away from the nitrous and blowers. I went and looked at the Jaspars website and did not see the 700 HP 350. I seen they had several diffrent sites. What is the exact web address and what section do I look under?
Also have you ever checked out Mazdas 4 rotor that was 2.6 liters putting out 700HP that they used for racing in the Lemans? This motor allowed Mazda to be the first Japanese manufacturer to ever a first rank "International" race with a race car powered by a non-conventional engine. Also check out IMSA GTU in 1985 they won their 6th straight IMSA GTU championship. This is a feat accomplished by no other manufacturer. You talk of Nascar like its a god it is a good sport but so far I only see domestic cars in it. When I watch other forms of racing that include all car manufacturers I do not always see a domestic nor always a V8 winning. The Mazda and its rotary racing history can be checked out from another book of mine This one is a hardcover called simply RX-7 and it came out in 93 it is basically about the 3rd Gen and the Author is John Dinkel. It talks of all professional racing our favorite car the RX7 and it s rotary powered engine. The four rotor one at Lemans a endurance race so the ol rotary must have been somwhat reliable there. Like I said when it comes to any other racing that imports are allowed in the win ration for a domestic and its V8 is not always so good. Nascar is fun but its only V8s and only domestics? Maybe Nascar is kind of like wrestling in the people it attracts take that however you want.

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

I would like to see some proof of the $8500 850HP 4 rotor wonder. I know that a 4 rotor does exist...the guy who makes the V8 RX-7 kit has a 4 rotor race car:

http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/4rotor.html

But, read toward the end as to why he gave it up. If there is an $8500, off the shelf 850HP 4 rotor why aren't all the FC and especially FD guys throwing it in there car? Here are my guesses:

1) It probably does not even come close to streetable

2) It probably does not fit right

3) When something breaks it will not be cheap to fix

I would think an $8500 850HP NA 4 rotor would be cheaper than a FD guy buying turbos, gauges, BOVs, fuel management, intercoolers, etc. Where are these FD and FC with 4 rotors?!

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Well Email pineapple racing and ask about the 4 rotor. I know in 91 maybe even before but for sure in 91 the 4 rotor they had was putting out 700HP then it was a 2.6 liter. The RX7 book I talked about in my last post will tell ya all ya need to know.
I agree that it probably is not very streetable I would say no more streetable than a 700 HP V8 N/A or otherewise the point was just made because people for what ever reason think the rotary is limited to 2 rotors. Personally I find the 13B probably the best choice with a Turbo of course for my needs. However if 400 HP is not enough which I think can be somwhat easily acheivable for a average guy willing to throw down $3500-$4000. There is always 3 and 4 rotor motors. There is currently a 3 rotor for sale on corksport for I belive 4k. That would easily match any streetable V8s. A 13B has been known to get a wee over 500 HP with just Turbo and fuel upgrades of course. Look on RX7.COM under the 3rd Gen Turbo Upgrades. Also check out the 2nd Gens Turbo Upgrade that could help you squeeze 450 HP out. V8s have a purpose and its in Camaros and Mustangs. One of the resons these cars are 500lbs heavier is because they are designed around a V8.
Kobayakawa from Mazda himself said the engine was to be anything bigger or heavier than the 13B rotary they would need to add weight to support it and control it. I am gonna take his word on that before sombody who already has Butchered there car with a V8 swap. Also thats why I like the 13B even over the 3 and 4 rotor motors. Ya its not as powerful but it has a nice balance and the car was designed around that motor. So I will squeeze from that what I can and call it good. Unless Mazda comes out with a V8 kit and recommends it Im stickin with the 13B . I stongly encourage all thinking about the swap to look at all rotary options first.
If it comes down to a V8 swap or you hauling it to the junkyard then I guess do your swap, but please exhaust all rotary options first.
On the 4 rotor and why a lot of people are not doing it? Hell there is barely anyone doing a 3 rotor swap. Not to mention the $8500 dollar price tag is double the cars value alone and who wants to start hackin into a FD? These are beautifully balnced cars and a lot of work has gone into them. It is just like Americans to think that the only way to achieve speed and HP is by the simple addition of C.I. Somtimes this is true but there are other ways. How sombody gets a V8 swap as being original needs to think. Lots of cars have V8s swapped into them howm many have a Rotary? If thats not enough a 3 or even the ridiculous 4 rotor. Thats original.
Also I am still waiting for the recipie of parts from my Summit magazine and how to make this 700HP N/A 350 that Bogus said he could do. He should be able to tell us what parts we will need.
The only time I bring up 3 and 4 rotors is when people start digging for the exotic V8s such as Nascar motors and such. If these people wanna bring up such stuff than I have to pull out the big guns myself. I mean for real a 700HP anything is a little ridiculous really when we are talking street cars. The 850 HP rotary is way ridiculous to I will be the 1st to admit it. I really see no need for anything bigger than a 3 rotor for street use. I will probably always stick with the 13B because where I live the competition usually has no more than 400HP. If I build a 13B turbo to have 350-400HP and get beaten so what that probably just means the other guy has more $$ than me. No matter which way you look at it speed and HP really boils down to how much$$ you have to build with. THat is probably why you dont see any 4 rotors and very few 3 rotors. That is also why you see V8s for the most part hangin in around 400 HP. That is why most people do not supercharge them either, they simply dont have $$ to do that and if they did have $$ to get that far they probably dont have $$ for a rebuild after they get that far. In the real world there is bills and house payments and so on. The average guy can maybe afford to sink in $3-4k in performance. I know thats about my limit, because that dollar amount will probably get you the best rounded in HP and reliablity. Yes Reliability is almost always lost in a trade for HP but I feel at that level its a loss in reliability we can live with.
Also I was thinking of putting a Harley Davidson motor on my crotch rocket? What do you guys think?

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Also anyone offended in my comment "thats the way Americans think" to bad its true. Am I un patriotic for that statement I think not as I am U.S Marine, and I have lived in Okinawa Japan for 1 yr. I seen how respectful these people are and how smart they are. I know what they mean when they say "America is super sized" We always think bigger is better. We think more food is better, we are now seeing this was not true. As we are getting super sized (Fatter). We always have thought that way, and bigger is not alway better. I know this is way off the topic, but the topic has turned into who can squeeze the biggest motor into there RX. The Japanese philosiphy is do more with less. The car is made there so I am following there philosiphy. Not domestic car makers philosiphy. Dodge and Ford got the bright idea of V10s I really am not seeing much imporvment over a nicely built 8 there so that was dumb. What does Viper have 500HP now they used to have 450HP that is in V8 territory yet, They just wanted to say look our motors are bigger. Well Congrats as usual you got more HP by simply adding cubes. Thats like adding body weight with fat instead of muscle.

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

That "more with less" idea is good on paper, but not in the REAL world. The 13b is 1.3L...big deal. That's not important. What real world advantage is there for that? Not much! The 13b PLUS everything it needs to be 400+HP weighs maybe 100lbs less than a 400+HP V8. With a little creativity that can be balanced out. But what other advantage is that 1.3L? It still uses just as much gas as the the similarly powered V8 and in some cases more. Add to that the FACT that a 400HP 1.3b which includes everything needed to get it there is more expensive than a 400HP V8. So the rotary uses more money too.

It's funny, I used to be a turbo guy. I still love turbos. I realized though that turbos sound great on paper, but in real world application they are a bitch! So much extra junk to buy just to keep them happy! So much more stuff to break! All that and a simple oldschool V8 can produce just as much power without the hassle. I like it simple: no nitrous, no blower, no turbo, no fuel injection, no expensive electronics. I like using my spare time for other things...like driving.

Felix Wankel

Damn straight. Plus, I prefer having usable torque for more than a couple thousand RPM.

I'm not saying anything else to Mr. Run-On Sentence there, I can only talk to a brick wall for so long...