Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

usmcjsy:

You are forgeting one little thing in your uninformed CI arguement: Turbocharging negates CI comparisons.

What you are in effect saying is that a stock TURBOCHARGED 1.3L rotary comes CLOSE(if the boost is increased) to the power of a stock NA 5.7 V8. Of course you will now bring up the Renesis...right? An engine that is about at it's power limit at least if it's kept NA. On the other hand you have the V8 (LS1 for example) that can still make hundreds more HP over stock without boost when modified. If you turbocharged a V8 at the SAME BOOST as the compared rotary the V8 will ALWAYS come on top. For example a V8(setup for turbocharging) running 10PSI will make more power than a 1.3L rotary running 10PSI given they use the same turbo. Your "1.3L rotary is better than 5.7L V8" arguement just got blown out the water.

Felix Wankel

You say that, then bring up Siguel's car. If you want to start talking about full tube chassis dragsters, I'll post some of John Force's timeslips. His car is as much a "Mustang" as Siguel's is an "RX-7".

I don't see any rotary cars in the 4 second/300 mph range...

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Oh ya lingenfelters Twin Turbo Vette got smoked by the RX7.COM FD both cars are street legal and retain stock interior and so on. Once again I am right. Please tell me where I can find a N/A 5.7 liter with "HUNDERDS" more HP. I wanna know where I can find this. Anyone tell me where I can call or where I can go on the net or what Magazine I can find this in. Also what would be the life span of a High boosted V8? I still have no awnswer to why if V8s rule why does not every single racer use them? And the argument was not HP I said the rotary can run with the V8 powered cars. Read back about 3 of my posts ago I posted some literature. The RX7.COM FD was still faster than some cars with 200 more HP in some cases and I also posted where one could find the information I posted. I dont care about just HP or just the 1/4 mi. I drive my car on the street for enjoyent I like throwing it into some tight curves well above the suggested speed limit. The Rotary has proven to be able to run with the big dogs in every aspect. Also like I said earlier if they ever where to make a 5.7L rotary you guys would be bowing down to it. I dont know the future of the rotary and what Mazda will do with it or if they will ever increase its size. If they do increase the size or even double it to a 2.6L your 5.7 would be in a world of hurt my friend. Also where did you get your time machine? I mean you must have one to say the rotary will never be able to squeeze out anymore HP and its at the end of the rope. Do you have a inside edge at Mazda? Do you know they will never increase its size? I feel they will do whatever they need to do to remain competitve. For MOST people who want a NEW V8 powered car they have basically 1 choice the Mustang. I see the RX8 being fully competitve with that. Ya there is still the Ol Vette but most people I know cannot afford a new Vette. The V8s are droppin and the Rotary is commin back again I like these changes. So I guess your argument will be "Blown Away" as soon as Mazda decides to lay the "Smack Down" and make a 2.6 liter Rotary and put a end to this. Imagine a 500HP N/A 2.6 Liter I like the sound of that. So please by all means Mizeru tell us where we can buy these LS1 with Hundreds more HP N/A or please tell us all the secret recipe and the price tag. You said you could get hundreds more HP yet from a N/A LS1 I wanna know how?
I have one yocal in here saying there is 700HP N/A 350s running around on the street I ask where to find it and I have heard from him never again. Now I wanna know how to get HUNDREDS more HP N/A from the LS1. the LS1 is already over 300 HPso your saying with no means of forced induction you are gonna get Hundreds more HP so you will have at least 200 HP more than GM got in stock form. The only way I see this is NOS and you can do this with the RENISIS.
Remember if Mazda ever decided to double up on size on the Renisis they may lose some HP per CI in the size upgrade but would probably be between 450-500HP with a N/A 2.6 Liter stock!

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

usmcjsy:

How many 400HP NA no nitrous rotaries are there? none that I know of...could be wrong

How many 400HP NA no nitrous V8s are there?
ten of thousands

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Felix oh Felix, I do not see any 4 Sec 300MPH cars on the street either. Once again I am talking cars I can afford and cars I can drive and cars us common folk can drag race on low traffic highway late at night. But you are right I do not see any rotarys in that club. By the way is your car in there? Will it be with the V8 transplant? If your RX7 with a V8 does the 1/4 in 4 sec at 300MPH Man I will do it. Until though I see street driven cars with V8s beating the rotary every single time and out like 3 car lengths between em, Im a Rotor Head!

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

You are right. Is all I am saying if Mazda was to decide to build a Rotary 1/2 the size of most V8s they would have the 400+ Hp with 2.6 liters and N/A stock. The size of the rotatry you are picking on is 1.3 liters your V8s are at least 4.6 liters. Most common one the 5.7. You V8 guys better pray that Mazda just does not get the idea of a 2.6 Liter rotary using todays technology. The size of engine you guys are lookinf at is 4 to 5 times bigger and your getting in stock form from the mustang 10 HP in the LS1 in the Camaro about 70. I guess I dont see the bragging rights. That like putting to guys on weight bench one guy weighing 300lbs the other one weighing 120 and the guy weighing 120 only benching 10 less lbs

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

usmcjsy:

V8 RX-7 10.05 @ 132 mph

http://members.tripod.com/~grannys/mazdarx8.html

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Still I wanna know where I can find the N/A 350 with 700 HP as Bogus File had stated he seen. And I still wanna know what needs to be done for the over 500HP with the LS1 N/A? Still want to know. I still get Hot Rod and Car Craft and have yet to see a N/A 350 with 700 HP. As far as the LS1 Jon Lingenfelter and his Twin Turbo C5 he manged to get 650 HP with a Twin Turbo set up. I dont see how one is gonna get even 550 N/A maybe I think it can be done but at what price? I mean Jon Lingenfelter is to Chevy what Peter Farrel is to Mazda. So I will be waiting patiently for this info as someday I may buy a Mustang or Camaro again just for the crude novelty of the car. It is fun to listen to the V8 and it is fun having the low end torque but its in crude way it just does not seem refined likethe RX7 and rotary.

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

That is impresive no lie thats movin, but however I can get that with the rotary. Go to RX7.COM and check out there drag car that is street legal and runs in the street class. Not Xtreme Street or Pro Street but street.

scathcart

A well built, 10K rpm up PP port or massive bridgeport motor, properly tuned, should make 350-400 hp to the flywheel, on gasoline.

Although I give you credit for stating you could be wrong, you do have to know acknowledge that you are arguing out of ignorance.

As an aside.... Pineapple Racing sells "ready-to-go" 4-rotors for $8500 USD which they claim make 850 hp in NA trim.

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

I took the liberty of looking it up again so no one has to go to that terrible rotary site. Here is the time for the street legal FD by RX7.COM 9.62sec@144mph. All with 1.3 liters. To me someone who can do more with less is more respectable than some one who can do the same thing with a lot more.

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

usmcjsy:

Answer to previous question: "hundreds of HP over stock NA LS1". Excuse the price in this instance because of the 50th AE and limited edition stuff. The price is not a reflection of the mods.

http://www.corvettethunder.com/car-corv.htm

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Thank You Scathcart. Finally sombody letting us know where they are getting there information and where to find it for ourselves. I also do not claim to know all, but I will post where I get my information so others can read it or whatever for themselves. I appreciate when other do the same. As there is a lot of people who are just pulling **** out there *** with nothing to support there claims. I to argue out of ignorance but it is just so much fun Thanks again for the info from Pineapple racing. Very Impressive #s indeed on N/A I am gonna do another ignorant thing and assume it is 5.2 liter rotary? Anyway how many V8s are doing this with about 5 liters N/A? Maybe there is some but I do not know of any and once again if someone says there is where can I find this motor?

Mizeru

iTrader: (2)

usmcjsy:

Also keep in mind that the V8 RX-7 I posted before was built by a "joe blow". Not someone with an entire business sponsoring him. To quote you:

"To me someone who can do more with less is more respectable than some one who can do the same thing with a lot more."

The V8 RX-7 guy did more with a whole lot less money.

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Thank You Mizeru but last I checked the LS1 is not a 427, And this 427 was putting out 500 HP which is good. The LS1 however is a wee bit smaller. Also to put out the hundreds of HP more it would at least have to be 200 HP more which this 427 was not even putting out 200HP more than a LS1. I belive the LS1 has 320 HP? Anyway I know its over 300. Thanks agin for the post though.

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Ok the guidstrand site you just sent me to and the Lingenfelter Twin Turbo vette do not out do the Rotary Performance FD and the packages for those 2 cars costs more than the whole FD and upgrades. I belive the Guldstrand site saif the package not including the car was $4X,XXX and the Lingenfelter again not including the car again was $5X,XXX. But ya Kudos to the guy doing it on his own.

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Really agian I like to see the Joe Blow beat the rich guy! As I am a joe myself.

Spac

I've waded into this late, and there have been some very good, very valid points raised. And some utter rubbish, too...
Anyway, here goes...

I am a rotary nut. I haven't been without a rotary of some sort since just after I first got my licence. Why?

*Rotaries are cheap power. My FC is putting out about 400hp at the FW. Fully rebuilt, with ALL accesories, the replacment cost is about Aus$4500, assuming I fit it to the car myself. It may be different in the US, but over here I'd pay that for the short motor if I was building a NA 350 Chev to get 400hp. It may be possible to build a low boost stockish Turbo Chev with 400hp for $4500, but I doubt it.

* They go faster than their power figures suggest. My old car was a 260ish HP Bridge port Cosmo. It had grunt galore, and was a damn fast car. The wide rev range and flat torque curve meant that any non-rotor heads that got into it would always guess that it had 350ish hp...

* The motors are little and light. I like medium/small cars that handle well. I also like cars that go fast. A dirty big V8 will bugger the handling. An dirty big ALLOY V8 will cost me more than I can afford so is totally irrelevant to my mind.

*They're different. "Everybody" has or wants a V8. *yawn* I like the fact that my car is different to the norm. I like the fact that rotaries are not considered Yobbo-mobiles.

* I like Mazdas. We're blessed with a good supply of mid 70s Mazdas here. While they're incredibly dated nowdays, I personally believe that they are great cars, and I love 'em. This is me being as illogical as everyone who likes old cars is. So sue me.

But, having said all of that, WHO CARES?!

Holden recently announced they are going to release a very small number of Monaros with 427s in them. They're going to be seriously trick cars, with spanky carbon-fibre intakes, CNC billet alloy suspension, and a correspondingly large price tag (AUS$200,000). There was a big debate on performanceforums.com about it -short version was that a few blokes got so wound up that it was "just a Commodore with a big motor" that they completely over-looked that it have lots of power, lots of brakes and lots of suspension, and so Commodore or not, its gonna be a damn fast car...
(www.performanceforums.com - have a look in "The Pool Room" if you want to check it out).

I've made my decision, others can make theirs. There's no answer to who's right and who's wrong - just differences of opinion.

Get over it.

Maybe you guys should learn some tolerance for other points of view?

[/ghandi]





And to wade into some of the less than accurate things said previously...

The fastest semi-street drag cars over here are mostly rotary powered. Certainly the rotary ones are closer to being road legal than the V8s.

And no production 13B based twin rotor will make much (any!) more than 340hp without forced induction of N2O. And those that do are BIG dollar motors, with intake manifolds costing over AUS$8000... Sorry, sad but true. Unless your dyno is optomistic! 300hp is realistic with a real-world budget.

And how anyone can make a comment about Renesis motors "being at their limit" is beyond me! Has anyone blown on up yet?! No, I didn't think so. Has anyone even worked one yet?

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

I am sorry but I realize on my calculation on the 4 rotor I may have miscalculated. I am assuming it is a 2.6 liter? I made a mathematical error on that one. So that means 850 H.P. from a N/A 2.6 Liter? That is simply amazing. It will be pretty tough for the V8 crowd to crack that nut. But I am sure we will see sombody else come on here and tell of a 350 with 900 HP N/A and I am sure at less cost, and of course they will not tell us how to get that HP or where we can buy such a motor already built.
Sorry again I do not know why I was thinking a 5.2 liter when you said 4 rotor, I now relaize it would probably be a 2.6 duh 2x1.3+2.6 LOL

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the support of the Rotary mate! And good day to ya!

Felix Wankel

Then what does Siguel's car have to do with anything?

What makes you think I have a V8 RX-7? Actually I sold all of my RX-7s (all rotary powered too) but one, and its for sale now. I'll be kind of glad to be distanced from some of these closed-minded rotary bigots. Yes, there are lots of fast rotaries. There are also lots of faster V-8s.

PS, the Lingenfelter cars still have a full interior. Maybe you should tell Ari his is missing from the seats back?

scathcart

Can you be a bit more definitive in your term "production based"?
Also, what kind of dyno are your referring to?

scathcart

You're not leaving us on the forum, are you? We've been losing a lot of the knowledgable and realistic people on the forum lately; it'd be a shame to lose another.

What kind of car are you going with now? Something a little more reliable? (remembering you have a child; you had forgotten a word in a thread on Nitrous Oxide b/c you were holding your kid while typing.)

Hope you stick around. It was cool to see another enthusiast that respected ALL of the other cars for what they are. Seems most of the V8 guys on here are hardcore chevy fans, and knock anything but bowties. Seems a little hypocritical too, since they usually tend to bash the rotary-lovers at the same time for liking a single brand of engine...

*sigh* Maybe its about time I left too.

Spac

The MoTeC engine dyno. Sorry don't know what type it is.
We have a VERY competitive class here called "Improved Production" where the rules for the rotaries are basically "stock motor can be a PP, but if you put a 13B in, you must stay side-port". The light weight of the RX-3 and the good aerodynamics of the 1st Gen RX-7s make them THE cars to have (ruling out the RX-4 and -5s with their factory 13Bs and therefore legal 13B PPs).
These guys go nuts with their cars - they're running $10k dog boxes, monster brakes etc.
SelectMaz (big race-car / Mazda workshop) was advertising 330hp BPs a few years ago. They were such trick, custom things that they could not quote me on one properly (nor totally promise that it would even make the full 330hp - just that it "would be competitive").
The long bare motor was going to be ~$10,000, the injection (MoTeC!) was about $5k, and the intake was $5k+. A mate was more recently quoted $7-11k by a different workshop for an intake of similar calibre. Exhausts are pretty full-on too - all of the usual tricks, but they've gotta be quiet enough too... So $1500+ for one of those...
In comparison, my old 13B BP cost me ~$1000, add $500 Weber and $500 exhaust and it was putting about 260hp.... The cost difference should show how far into the area of diminishing returns the IP guys are. None of them even dream of claiming they're making more than 330hp (I used the 340hp figure just in case there'd been some more developments!).

And by production based, I basically mean a 13B. You got something better? :P

scathcart

I wasn't sure if you meant stock ports or what (production based isn't a common term up here), b/c you can make more than 340 hp with a monster bridge or a PP without going forced induction.