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Good or Bad WHP #??

Old 04-15-11, 02:45 PM
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Good or Bad WHP #??

Hello guys, I had my car dynoed and tuned last week. I wasn't too happy on the rwhp number. I love the way it feels, but expected a bigger number around the 300's or so. I'm I expecting too much based on my mods? Car had about 100 PSI compression a few months ago. Please feel free to provide me with thoughts and info guys. Thanks. Please see the dyno graph.

I believe it's stock motor/port at 75k odo. Stock twins (Seq.) and rats nest cleaned out.

Mods Include: 13LBS of Boost

Injector (Prime 550cc) (Secondary 1300cc)
Power FC w/ Commander
PFS SMIC (intercooler) w K&N Filter
Koyo N-Flow Radiator
NGK Spark Plugs (10's) & Wires
Trust Downpipe
Hi-Flow Cat
Racing Beat (Dual) Cat-Back Exhaust System
Racing Beat (Lighten Flywheel)
ACT 6 Puck Clutch Disc/stock plate

That's all the mods I can think of..
Attached Files
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Old 04-15-11, 02:55 PM
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REDX7FD,
What ignition booster do you have. It seems to start missing at 5000 rpm.
Barry
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Old 04-15-11, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Barry Bordes View Post
REDX7FD,
What ignition booster do you have. It seems to start missing at 5000 rpm.
Barry
It might be missing. The smoothing is set to 0 in the WinPEP7 software, and that could easily be why it looks that way. Most Dynojet plots you see have smoothing set to the maximum, which is 5 in the software. The correction factor was set to "STD" and the smoothing set to 0 in order to increase the reported peak horsepower number a bit. The dyno operator was trying to get the highest number possible from the data and on a Dynojet that combination of settings will do it. Some runs are just noisier than others. It depends on the dyno, the way it was strapped down, etc.

Originally Posted by RedX7FD View Post
Hello guys, I had my car dynoed and tuned last week. I wasn't too happy on the rwhp number. I love the way it feels, but expected a bigger number around the 300's or so. I'm I expecting too much based on my mods? Car had about 100 PSI compression a few months ago. Please feel free to provide me with thoughts and info guys. Thanks. Please see the dyno graph.
Having spent many hours on the dyno with different types of cars (rotary and piston), I will say that you would be surprised how often your situation occurs. IT seems like everybody on the internet is getting between x and y number, and yours is noticeably lower but there is nothing obviously wrong. The car drives fine and is enjoyable. One thing to remember is that the guys with the highest numbers tend to be the ones who post about their numbers most.

Now, I'm not saying that there couldn't be something wrong. I don't have the car in front of me. If I were you though I would start by using a boost leak tester (like the Fighter's Garage part) to be sure you don't have any leaks in the plumbing. Verify there are no exhaust leaks and no problem with the cat. You could try an ignition amplifier but if you can't already hear a misfire there may not be much power gained. Other than doing all that, your only other major choice is to ask the tuner to add more timing or lean the mixture.

So check everything out, but after you do that don't go all-out trying to chase the internet dyno sheet rainbow.
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Old 04-16-11, 10:37 PM
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Your dyno chart to me looks like you are running the K&N filter in the stock airbox.

It looks to me like because you have the stock airbox limiting flow you are spiking to 13psi on 2ndary transition and then it mellows back out to ~10psi boost @5,400rpm and on.

Most people claiming 13psi power results would have 13psi boost all the way through the 2ndary turbo operation, so there peak numbers will be 10-30hp more than you.

If it is the case that you are running the stock airbox, once you add individual cone filters with as much stock ducting replaced with smooth and low bend pipes to your turbo inlets you probably will also have boost creep following your 2ndary boost spike so that you will have more boost after 5,400rpm- though this depends on the restriction from your "highflow" cat and the RB exhaust.

Additionally, it will wake up the responsiveness on your primary turbo as frankly right now it looks poor for a modded sequential on the low end power.

My single turbo FC has more torque from 2,000rpm up than your chart and my stock class FD destroys it on 4th gear 2,000rpm pulls.


If you do change up any parts CHECK your tune afterward to make sure it is still safe AFRs.
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Old 04-18-11, 02:46 PM
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Thanks guys!!

Originally Posted by Barry Bordes View Post
REDX7FD,
What ignition booster do you have. It seems to start missing at 5000 rpm.
Barry
Barry IDK ??

Originally Posted by arghx View Post
It might be missing. The smoothing is set to 0 in the WinPEP7 software, and that could easily be why it looks that way. Most Dynojet plots you see have smoothing set to the maximum, which is 5 in the software. The correction factor was set to "STD" and the smoothing set to 0 in order to increase the reported peak horsepower number a bit. The dyno operator was trying to get the highest number possible from the data and on a Dynojet that combination of settings will do it. Some runs are just noisier than others. It depends on the dyno, the way it was strapped down, etc.



Having spent many hours on the dyno with different types of cars (rotary and piston), I will say that you would be surprised how often your situation occurs. IT seems like everybody on the internet is getting between x and y number, and yours is noticeably lower but there is nothing obviously wrong. The car drives fine and is enjoyable. One thing to remember is that the guys with the highest numbers tend to be the ones who post about their numbers most.

Now, I'm not saying that there couldn't be something wrong. I don't have the car in front of me. If I were you though I would start by using a boost leak tester (like the Fighter's Garage part) to be sure you don't have any leaks in the plumbing. Verify there are no exhaust leaks and no problem with the cat. You could try an ignition amplifier but if you can't already hear a misfire there may not be much power gained. Other than doing all that, your only other major choice is to ask the tuner to add more timing or lean the mixture.

So check everything out, but after you do that don't go all-out trying to chase the internet dyno sheet rainbow.
ARGIJX I did forget to mention, I got an exhaust leak and vaccum leak fixed.

Originally Posted by BLUE TII View Post
Your dyno chart to me looks like you are running the K&N filter in the stock airbox.

It looks to me like because you have the stock airbox limiting flow you are spiking to 13psi on 2ndary transition and then it mellows back out to ~10psi boost @5,400rpm and on.

Most people claiming 13psi power results would have 13psi boost all the way through the 2ndary turbo operation, so there peak numbers will be 10-30hp more than you.

If it is the case that you are running the stock airbox, once you add individual cone filters with as much stock ducting replaced with smooth and low bend pipes to your turbo inlets you probably will also have boost creep following your 2ndary boost spike so that you will have more boost after 5,400rpm- though this depends on the restriction from your "highflow" cat and the RB exhaust.

Additionally, it will wake up the responsiveness on your primary turbo as frankly right now it looks poor for a modded sequential on the low end power.

My single turbo FC has more torque from 2,000rpm up than your chart and my stock class FD destroys it on 4th gear 2,000rpm pulls.


If you do change up any parts CHECK your tune afterward to make sure it is still safe AFRs.
BLUE TII I do have a K&N filter w/ the stock plastic pipes. What do you recommend in this case to keep it at 13psi all the way through? Sorry guys still somewhat a newb.
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Old 04-23-11, 03:47 PM
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I'm also interested in boost spikes. I rode in an FD that had two separate foam element filters, 99 spec turbos, catless dp, Racing Beat cat-back, and a PFC (If this info helps the diagnosis). Anyway, the car would spike from 13psi to 15psi when the second turbo engaged, what would cause this, is it a big deal? Also, it was very apparent when the second turbo kicked in, is this normal, and if so is there anyway to make the transition seamless, or the powerband smoother (Preferably both)?
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Old 04-25-11, 04:18 PM
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^ Does the car in question use the stock boost control solenoids? It would help a lot if somebody could get logs from the Power FC using a Datalogit box. It may just need to turn down the duty cycle on the pre-control and wastegate solenoids.
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Old 04-26-11, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by arghx View Post
^ Does the car in question use the stock boost control solenoids? It would help a lot if somebody could get logs from the Power FC using a Datalogit box. It may just need to turn down the duty cycle on the pre-control and wastegate solenoids.
Yes, the car has the stock boost control solenoids. I've been informed by another member on this forum that they may not be operating as they should. I will look into getting logs and see if your suggestion could be the solution to this issue. Thanks for the advice.
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Old 04-28-11, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by KJK View Post
Yes, the car has the stock boost control solenoids. I've been informed by another member on this forum that they may not be operating as they should. I will look into getting logs and see if your suggestion could be the solution to this issue. Thanks for the advice.
It is not uncommon to mistake a boost control tuning issue (incorrect duty cycles) with an actual mechanical problem with the solenoids. Logs will go a long way to help diagnose this.

What you would do is open the software and go into the monitor window. Select the boxes to log "Advance" and "sensors" and de-select other boxes. Log some 2nd and 3rd gear pulls if it can be done safely. Several short logs are better than one big long log. Save the logs and then you can attach some here so I can examine them.
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Old 04-29-11, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by arghx View Post
It is not uncommon to mistake a boost control tuning issue (incorrect duty cycles) with an actual mechanical problem with the solenoids. Logs will go a long way to help diagnose this.

What you would do is open the software and go into the monitor window. Select the boxes to log "Advance" and "sensors" and de-select other boxes. Log some 2nd and 3rd gear pulls if it can be done safely. Several short logs are better than one big long log. Save the logs and then you can attach some here so I can examine them.
It sounds like the next step is to get some logs up here for you to examine, so I will work on that. It may take a week or so just because I have been so busy lately.

I thought pulls were usually done in 4th gear? if you would like I could do some pulls in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. Just curious if it would be easier to diagnose a 4th gear log.
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Old 05-01-11, 12:14 PM
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each gear will put a different type of load on the engine so the boost curve will look a little different. It would be nice to have data from 2nd through 4th gears but on the street there are of course safety and legal concerns. It would be safer and helpful to have an assistant operate the laptop while you drive.
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Old 05-06-11, 03:45 PM
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just to add my 2 cents here, I put down nearly identical numbers as you did with rock solid boost at about 13 psi. I had 2 open element filters and no stock box but I did have the stock piping. I also had a front mount and the efini y-pipe so my intake temps weren't the greatest on the dyno. I also was non-sequential with a greddy ebc to control boost. I also had a few vacuum/boost leaks.
ANYWAYS
Who tuned it? Like Arghx said, with it just spiking to that pressure you're not gonna see max power for that pressure. I never had my car re-dyno'd after getting it tuned on the street, but I can tell you once those leaks were fixed and the timing was optimized it made a world of difference. If you address the leaks (sounds like you did) and intake restrictions, and get the boost straightened out you may very well see the numbers you're looking for.

Best of luck.
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Old 05-19-11, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by KKMpunkrock2011 View Post
just to add my 2 cents here, I put down nearly identical numbers as you did with rock solid boost at about 13 psi. I had 2 open element filters and no stock box but I did have the stock piping. I also had a front mount and the efini y-pipe so my intake temps weren't the greatest on the dyno. I also was non-sequential with a greddy ebc to control boost. I also had a few vacuum/boost leaks.
ANYWAYS
Who tuned it? Like Arghx said, with it just spiking to that pressure you're not gonna see max power for that pressure. I never had my car re-dyno'd after getting it tuned on the street, but I can tell you once those leaks were fixed and the timing was optimized it made a world of difference. If you address the leaks (sounds like you did) and intake restrictions, and get the boost straightened out you may very well see the numbers you're looking for.

Best of luck.
Thanks KKMpunkrock2011, I forgot to mention I do have the efini Y-Pipe as well. It feels great compared to stock, but I was a bit down cuz I expected more. It was tuned by RRR in O.C. I have that stock intake plastic thing with a large K&N filter. I asked the person whom tuned it that I was informed here on the forums that it had only 13psi of boost as spiking and was mostly at 10psi, and replied that you can't tell on the amount of boost on the dyno chart. Please inform me if I read correctly or not? Thanks again guys!
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Old 05-20-11, 11:41 AM
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you read it correctly, for future reference when you go to the dyno and get a printout I would ask the shop operator to also give you a printout of afrs by rpm and boost by rpm for reference. That's how my local shop does it and its great.
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Old 06-07-11, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RedX7FD View Post
BLUE TII I do have a K&N filter w/ the stock plastic pipes. What do you recommend in this case to keep it at 13psi all the way through? Sorry guys still somewhat a newb.
Hi!

When i dynoed my car with all the BPU mods it picked up 18 hp att the crank when we removed the stock plastic pipes that runs from the K&N filters to the turbos. I had no ignition amplifier and boosted 1,0 bar fine.

So check your piping cuz it could be a restricting area! The pipe can be bent inward during high load.

But after every thing you change, check your lambda readings!

BR

Olle Lindén
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