howard coleman's FD Chassis/Setup
09-13-08, 10:08 PM
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09-13-08, 10:38 PM
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Howard,
thanks for your help and analysis. I don't think I can get more camber up front since it is maxed out on FR. I just replaced all bushings so it will be awhile before I can do anything.
I do have zip ties on the strut rods, I haven't had a chance to measure how much travel I have. I will measure them when I get back from San Jose.
My plans for the next session is the following:
Change rear pads to Hawk Blues
Add rear bar (if tie wrap tells me I should)
Lower tire pressure from 29/28 cold to 27/26 cold and adjust from there.
Additionally, could the tire temp difference in rear caused by the track having mostly left hand turn?
So far, the changes I did yield me 5-6 secs/lap so I'm pretty happy with the result. There isn't anyone at the track came close to the times I was running but I would be nice to get shave another 2 secs if I can.
thanks for your help and analysis. I don't think I can get more camber up front since it is maxed out on FR. I just replaced all bushings so it will be awhile before I can do anything.
I do have zip ties on the strut rods, I haven't had a chance to measure how much travel I have. I will measure them when I get back from San Jose.
My plans for the next session is the following:
Change rear pads to Hawk Blues
Add rear bar (if tie wrap tells me I should)
Lower tire pressure from 29/28 cold to 27/26 cold and adjust from there.
Additionally, could the tire temp difference in rear caused by the track having mostly left hand turn?
So far, the changes I did yield me 5-6 secs/lap so I'm pretty happy with the result. There isn't anyone at the track came close to the times I was running but I would be nice to get shave another 2 secs if I can.
steve,
thanks for the data and it looks like you are doing well and heading in the right direction.
at 2300 pounds, running 10 and 12 inch wheels you need to lower your air pressure so your tires will work harder. (kind of along the lines that Fritz mentioned re smaller rubber)
noting your last data set:
in all but one corner the highest temperature is the middle. 3 of your 4 tires are overinflated. just think how fast you are going to be when you start using all your tire contact surface. (i am not kidding). further, the wider the tire (and yours are wide) the more critical setup is.
your camber in the front needs another half degree. from your last session you only have 6 degrees difference between inside and out. you want 10-12.
adjust tire pressure so the middle hot temp is halfway between the inner and outer. (you will find that you will run different pressures at each corner.)
right rear average temp is 161 V LR at 151. any static weight you can shift from R to L would result in faster laps.
also, if your temps are accurate from your last session, you need a half degree of camber in the left rear.
i looked at all your pics. your car does not look like it is overly squating on the outside rear in a turn. of course the pics were taken from only one corner... i suggest you do the tie wraps next time out and eliminate gueswork.
a tie wrap on each shockrod pushed down onto the shock body just before a session... anything more than 1.4 inches of travel from ride height at the shock rod calls for more roll control.
as i have previously mentioned roll control can be achieved either thru more spring or bar. at a certain point springs will decrease traction whereas a bar will not. be careful w spring rate.
based on the pics i saw i would not change roll control til doing the tie wraps.
just a comment on brakes...
i assume you are running the AP5200s up front and either the late model FD or stock FD rear. brake bias is really important in going fast. you need as much rear brakes as you can handle. and i do mean handle because you reach a point as you dial in more rears of being out of control at corner entry. before i ran my RacingBrake 4 wheel setup i had the M2 AP 5200s and stock rears. the stock rears dictated how much of the fronts i could use. you are running tons of rear rubber so the more rears you can add the more effort you can input.
i consider my RB setup to be a huge uptick from stock. your ability to adjust bias w your Wilwood twin masters and a bias bar is a big plus that could be better capitalized with more rear brakes.
thanks for the data and the pics which were helpful.
hc
thanks for the data and it looks like you are doing well and heading in the right direction.
at 2300 pounds, running 10 and 12 inch wheels you need to lower your air pressure so your tires will work harder. (kind of along the lines that Fritz mentioned re smaller rubber)
noting your last data set:
in all but one corner the highest temperature is the middle. 3 of your 4 tires are overinflated. just think how fast you are going to be when you start using all your tire contact surface. (i am not kidding). further, the wider the tire (and yours are wide) the more critical setup is.
your camber in the front needs another half degree. from your last session you only have 6 degrees difference between inside and out. you want 10-12.
adjust tire pressure so the middle hot temp is halfway between the inner and outer. (you will find that you will run different pressures at each corner.)
right rear average temp is 161 V LR at 151. any static weight you can shift from R to L would result in faster laps.
also, if your temps are accurate from your last session, you need a half degree of camber in the left rear.
i looked at all your pics. your car does not look like it is overly squating on the outside rear in a turn. of course the pics were taken from only one corner... i suggest you do the tie wraps next time out and eliminate gueswork.
a tie wrap on each shockrod pushed down onto the shock body just before a session... anything more than 1.4 inches of travel from ride height at the shock rod calls for more roll control.
as i have previously mentioned roll control can be achieved either thru more spring or bar. at a certain point springs will decrease traction whereas a bar will not. be careful w spring rate.
based on the pics i saw i would not change roll control til doing the tie wraps.
just a comment on brakes...
i assume you are running the AP5200s up front and either the late model FD or stock FD rear. brake bias is really important in going fast. you need as much rear brakes as you can handle. and i do mean handle because you reach a point as you dial in more rears of being out of control at corner entry. before i ran my RacingBrake 4 wheel setup i had the M2 AP 5200s and stock rears. the stock rears dictated how much of the fronts i could use. you are running tons of rear rubber so the more rears you can add the more effort you can input.
i consider my RB setup to be a huge uptick from stock. your ability to adjust bias w your Wilwood twin masters and a bias bar is a big plus that could be better capitalized with more rear brakes.
thanks for the data and the pics which were helpful.
hc
09-17-08, 04:33 PM
#453
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Howard,
I will measure them when I get back from San Jose.
Lower tire pressure from 29/28 cold to 27/26 cold and adjust from there.
Additionally, could the tire temp difference in rear caused by the track having mostly left hand turn?
So far, the changes I did yield me 5-6 secs/lap so I'm pretty happy with the result. There isn't anyone at the track came close to the times I was running but I would be nice to get shave another 2 secs if I can.
I will measure them when I get back from San Jose.
Lower tire pressure from 29/28 cold to 27/26 cold and adjust from there.
Additionally, could the tire temp difference in rear caused by the track having mostly left hand turn?
So far, the changes I did yield me 5-6 secs/lap so I'm pretty happy with the result. There isn't anyone at the track came close to the times I was running but I would be nice to get shave another 2 secs if I can.
our home track, thunderhill, is mostly lefts, so the right is always hotter. we end up with an asymetrical setup. at sears pt/infineon, its different.
5-6 seconds is great improvement, the next 2 seconds are probably in your head. the driver is the most important part of the deal, after all
09-17-08, 04:45 PM
#454
Howard et al:
Right now I have a cheap probe pyrometer that takes several seconds to do just one reading. It's clear that it's not fast enough or convenient enough to get 12 quality readings. I'm also not keen on spending hundreds for a pyrometer that I might use once a year, since I dual-purpose my car and don't tune for any particular event.
Is there an affordable pyrometer option for a guy like myself? I'm thinking I should politely ask to rent a good unit for the couple days I get out on the track or do semi-serious autocrossing.
Dave
Right now I have a cheap probe pyrometer that takes several seconds to do just one reading. It's clear that it's not fast enough or convenient enough to get 12 quality readings. I'm also not keen on spending hundreds for a pyrometer that I might use once a year, since I dual-purpose my car and don't tune for any particular event.
Is there an affordable pyrometer option for a guy like myself? I'm thinking I should politely ask to rent a good unit for the couple days I get out on the track or do semi-serious autocrossing.
Dave
09-17-08, 06:37 PM
#456
Howard et al:
Right now I have a cheap probe pyrometer that takes several seconds to do just one reading. It's clear that it's not fast enough or convenient enough to get 12 quality readings. I'm also not keen on spending hundreds for a pyrometer that I might use once a year, since I dual-purpose my car and don't tune for any particular event.
Is there an affordable pyrometer option for a guy like myself? I'm thinking I should politely ask to rent a good unit for the couple days I get out on the track or do semi-serious autocrossing.
Dave
Right now I have a cheap probe pyrometer that takes several seconds to do just one reading. It's clear that it's not fast enough or convenient enough to get 12 quality readings. I'm also not keen on spending hundreds for a pyrometer that I might use once a year, since I dual-purpose my car and don't tune for any particular event.
Is there an affordable pyrometer option for a guy like myself? I'm thinking I should politely ask to rent a good unit for the couple days I get out on the track or do semi-serious autocrossing.
Dave
Best I have found were the longacres:
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalo...id=200&catid=7
I understand the regular probe is better than the laser / IR model b/c you can push the probe a mm or two into the rubber and get better readings. Plenty on ebay as well.
09-17-08, 10:31 PM
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Nice seeing you too. I got some Hawk Blues from Alex for free so I'll wait until I wear these out first (pads or rotors) before going with the DTC pads.
This is the pyrometer I got
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalo...id=193&catid=7
It works very well and memorize every session so you don't have to write it down.
This is the pyrometer I got
http://www.longacreracing.com/catalo...id=193&catid=7
It works very well and memorize every session so you don't have to write it down.
09-17-08, 10:35 PM
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Ivan is an interesting character...... You should ask him what happened Sunday night while we were tuning his car on highway 9.
I know I can shave some times off with better brakes. As far as cornering goes, I think I'm pretty close to max out with the current setup.
I know I can shave some times off with better brakes. As far as cornering goes, I think I'm pretty close to max out with the current setup.
ivans a picky bastid huh?
our home track, thunderhill, is mostly lefts, so the right is always hotter. we end up with an asymetrical setup. at sears pt/infineon, its different.
5-6 seconds is great improvement, the next 2 seconds are probably in your head. the driver is the most important part of the deal, after all
our home track, thunderhill, is mostly lefts, so the right is always hotter. we end up with an asymetrical setup. at sears pt/infineon, its different.
5-6 seconds is great improvement, the next 2 seconds are probably in your head. the driver is the most important part of the deal, after all
09-18-08, 12:03 PM
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lol, you're nuts too! highway 9 and ivans fd is the only car ive ever been in, that felt like it really needs a cage and harnesses....
09-18-08, 10:45 PM
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Spring selection
Howard, this is some kinda thread. Took me more than a few days to read it. Thanks for the information.
I have a '93 R1 which is pretty much bone stock (and I want to keep it that way) other than a Koyo radiator, K&N air filters and Hoosier A6 245-45-16's on stock wheels. The car is used for autocrosses and a few track events per year and I'm thinking of replacing the shocks and springs since they are still the originals.
For springs, you seem to favor the Tein (Standardized spring) with 8/6 for front & rear with PN ST 080-01175 and SJ 060-01175, both are listed as 175mm long (if i'm not mistaken). I presume that this length would lower the car, but I would like to keep my ride height as close to stock as possible and am thinking of using either an 8/6 or 7/5 but with a 200mm length to be used with stock R1 shocks, Bilstein HD's or Koni Sports (still trying to figure out which one to use); any thoughts?
Thanks,
C
I have a '93 R1 which is pretty much bone stock (and I want to keep it that way) other than a Koyo radiator, K&N air filters and Hoosier A6 245-45-16's on stock wheels. The car is used for autocrosses and a few track events per year and I'm thinking of replacing the shocks and springs since they are still the originals.
For springs, you seem to favor the Tein (Standardized spring) with 8/6 for front & rear with PN ST 080-01175 and SJ 060-01175, both are listed as 175mm long (if i'm not mistaken). I presume that this length would lower the car, but I would like to keep my ride height as close to stock as possible and am thinking of using either an 8/6 or 7/5 but with a 200mm length to be used with stock R1 shocks, Bilstein HD's or Koni Sports (still trying to figure out which one to use); any thoughts?
Thanks,
C
09-22-08, 01:29 PM
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he said you went above and beyond as a tuner.
09-22-08, 07:22 PM
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Suspension upgrades needed
Maybe this is not the right forum to post but I wanted to know what suspension mods should I start doing to my R1 FD.
I drag the car at least twice a month and I've been introduced to Autox. What I want is suspension that will work for both. I was planning on buying Tanabe Sustec front and rear sway bars, Widefoot mounts, and Tein Flex 8/6 coilovers.
I wasn't able to resize the pic but here's a good pic during an Autox run:
http://www.pibt.org/images/may18th08autox51.jpg
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
I drag the car at least twice a month and I've been introduced to Autox. What I want is suspension that will work for both. I was planning on buying Tanabe Sustec front and rear sway bars, Widefoot mounts, and Tein Flex 8/6 coilovers.
I wasn't able to resize the pic but here's a good pic during an Autox run:
http://www.pibt.org/images/may18th08autox51.jpg
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
09-22-08, 09:23 PM
#464
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Maybe this is not the right forum to post but I wanted to know what suspension mods should I start doing to my R1 FD.
I drag the car at least twice a month and I've been introduced to Autox. What I want is suspension that will work for both. I was planning on buying Tanabe Sustec front and rear sway bars, Widefoot mounts, and Tein Flex 8/6 coilovers.
I wasn't able to resize the pic but here's a good pic during an Autox run:
http://www.pibt.org/images/may18th08autox51.jpg
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
I drag the car at least twice a month and I've been introduced to Autox. What I want is suspension that will work for both. I was planning on buying Tanabe Sustec front and rear sway bars, Widefoot mounts, and Tein Flex 8/6 coilovers.
I wasn't able to resize the pic but here's a good pic during an Autox run:
http://www.pibt.org/images/may18th08autox51.jpg
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
You have already listed suspension upgrades following the lines of recommendations. A drag suspension setup is and an AutoX suspension setup are different at the base. But the whole point of this thread is trackability/streetability dual purpose following those guidelines you will have fun at AutoX and not feel like crying when taking your car out on the street for an occasional cruise.
Get some good tires and go have fun with the setup you have.
FWIW,
I have the Tanabe Swaybars front and back with 10/8kg coilovers set @ 25in rideheight all around and 30/27 pressures with 255/40/17 and I see noticable understeer.
09-22-08, 11:45 PM
#465
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Drag racing and autox have totally different alignment setup so you will constantly have to change your alignment to get the most out of both. As for suspension, You want something that has wide range of damper/rebound adjustment for different applications. Tein Flex is a good start. If you want something more fancy, you can get either Koni double adjustable or Penske double adjustable. However, they are around $1k per corner.
Maybe this is not the right forum to post but I wanted to know what suspension mods should I start doing to my R1 FD.
I drag the car at least twice a month and I've been introduced to Autox. What I want is suspension that will work for both. I was planning on buying Tanabe Sustec front and rear sway bars, Widefoot mounts, and Tein Flex 8/6 coilovers.
I wasn't able to resize the pic but here's a good pic during an Autox run:
http://www.pibt.org/images/may18th08autox51.jpg
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
I drag the car at least twice a month and I've been introduced to Autox. What I want is suspension that will work for both. I was planning on buying Tanabe Sustec front and rear sway bars, Widefoot mounts, and Tein Flex 8/6 coilovers.
I wasn't able to resize the pic but here's a good pic during an Autox run:
http://www.pibt.org/images/may18th08autox51.jpg
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
09-23-08, 06:40 PM
#467
Howard,
Great thead thanks for all the info.
I'm just about done with my project. its a 95' FD that I'm making into a full racecar.
the category I run (RS) its a bid like the GT3 in SCCA. we have to run stock susp. comp. but we are allowed to change bushings, shocks & springs (but only can adjust height not stiffness)
I was able to find a set of teins that I only can adjust the height
I have a question regarding the bushing you describe bellow.
It is also easy just to replace the link with an aftermarket item that employs a spherical bushing. If you don’t replace this bushing your wheels will be toeing in and out on acceleration and braking.
#1 I'm not to sure which one is this bushing?
#2 I'm not allowed to use links can I use nylon or teflon in this bushing?
thanks
Jose P.
Great thead thanks for all the info.
I'm just about done with my project. its a 95' FD that I'm making into a full racecar.
the category I run (RS) its a bid like the GT3 in SCCA. we have to run stock susp. comp. but we are allowed to change bushings, shocks & springs (but only can adjust height not stiffness)
I was able to find a set of teins that I only can adjust the height
I have a question regarding the bushing you describe bellow.
It is also easy just to replace the link with an aftermarket item that employs a spherical bushing. If you don’t replace this bushing your wheels will be toeing in and out on acceleration and braking.
#1 I'm not to sure which one is this bushing?
#2 I'm not allowed to use links can I use nylon or teflon in this bushing?
thanks
Jose P.
09-23-08, 08:28 PM
#468
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Jose,
it sounds like a great class.
i have a set of lower links w the nylon bushing and steel inserts in my shop and will post a picture for you tomorrow. they are essential.
howard
it sounds like a great class.
i have a set of lower links w the nylon bushing and steel inserts in my shop and will post a picture for you tomorrow. they are essential.
howard
09-24-08, 04:17 PM
#469
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here they are... these were part of Jim Lab's Unobtanium Bushing set. i run something similar and my wife runs a tubular replacement w a rod end. i really like running the mazda aluminum link as they clean up to almost jewel quality. obviously i haven't quite gotten there yet w these.
hc
hc
09-24-08, 04:43 PM
#471
For springs, you seem to favor the Tein (Standardized spring) with 8/6 for front & rear with PN ST 080-01175 and SJ 060-01175, both are listed as 175mm long (if i'm not mistaken). I presume that this length would lower the car, but I would like to keep my ride height as close to stock as possible and am thinking of using either an 8/6 or 7/5 but with a 200mm length to be used with stock R1 shocks, Bilstein HD's or Koni Sports (still trying to figure out which one to use); any thoughts?
Thanks,
C
Thanks,
C
09-24-08, 09:35 PM
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Julian, Thanks for the input.
It is my intention to stay factory type shocks (especially the R1 shocks) since I would like to avoid the complication of too many things to adjust, I like the way the car handles and they're a lot easier on the pocket
I'm just trying to figure out a cost effective way of improving handling performance a little bit and would like to stay with linear rate springs; it seems that the HTech springs are progressive rate, according to the Tein website.
tein.com/products/high_tech.html
Have you tried either the Bilsteins or Koni's? Any feedback you can give me?
It is my intention to stay factory type shocks (especially the R1 shocks) since I would like to avoid the complication of too many things to adjust, I like the way the car handles and they're a lot easier on the pocket
I'm just trying to figure out a cost effective way of improving handling performance a little bit and would like to stay with linear rate springs; it seems that the HTech springs are progressive rate, according to the Tein website.
tein.com/products/high_tech.html
Have you tried either the Bilsteins or Koni's? Any feedback you can give me?
09-24-08, 10:10 PM
#473
Howard,
Ok, so those 2 and the 2 on top of the differential. no prob.
I dont need to do the toe adjuster link?
I'm also doing the engine mounts with nylon bushings 2''. so everything will be rock solid.
I did a good job with the RX7 PPF, I installed a RX8 6-speed and had to do some fixxing up there, the -6-speed is shorter than the RX7 5-speed.
Ok, so those 2 and the 2 on top of the differential. no prob.
I dont need to do the toe adjuster link?
I'm also doing the engine mounts with nylon bushings 2''. so everything will be rock solid.
I did a good job with the RX7 PPF, I installed a RX8 6-speed and had to do some fixxing up there, the -6-speed is shorter than the RX7 5-speed.
09-25-08, 01:21 PM
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09-25-08, 07:46 PM
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here they are... these were part of Jim Lab's Unobtanium Bushing set. i run something similar and my wife runs a tubular replacement w a rod end. i really like running the mazda aluminum link as they clean up to almost jewel quality. obviously i haven't quite gotten there yet w these.
hc
hc
-Andy