Sandro

iTrader: (1)

Excellent thread Howard. Thank you and the other contributors for sharing such great information and experience. I hadn't checked the forum in a while and I am pleased I came back.

Since you have been posting your charts, I thought to contribute a dyno chart of the Tein Super Racing (I had posted this already in the past but I thought it may be useful to repost it in this thread).

Substantially similar curves among the four shocks (Tein SCR are equal valving F and R). Very good consistency. Compression range is limited but rebound adjustability is quite wide.

On the other hand, a word of warning about the Tein springs. Rated at 14 Kg/mm (@ 782 lb/in) the four springs measured between 762 and 816 lb/in. Very inconsistent.

- Sandro

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i use a Longacre Digital Spring Rator and came up w:

tein SS springs-----

10 KG is 559 pounds/inch... i measured 566 on two springs w a 4 pound diff.

8 KG is 448 i measured 432, about the same diff

6 KG is 336 i measured 378 on both. oops.

hc

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

Mmmm, 13% out of spec on yours 6 Kg/mm! And I was complaining about my 3%-4%...

I also noticed these springs have fewer coils if compared with - say - Hypercoils (tipically 1% tolerance).

Everything else equal, less coils make for more angular displacement across the coil section. That may be a contributor to their inaccuracy. Just a wild guess...

- Sandro

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

Sorry or the delayed comment but I am catching up...

Nitrogen should not behave much differently than air as far as temperature and pressure increases are concerned. Both are gas and obey to the gas law PV=RT

Whether nitrogen or air (78% of which is nitrogen anyhow), friction makes them hotter more or less the same. Increase in temperature would then cause similar increase in tire pressure. Unless thermodynamic has changed in the meantime...

Anyhow, very easy to field test.

- Sandro

phinsn98

iTrader: (2)

Howard it's funny you posted that tein recommends revalving the strut when going with lesser of a spring.

I asked him if he could explain the reasoning behind their suggestion and he could not.

Can you, I'd like to understand.

Thanks

AHarada

iTrader: (25)

If I were to swap out the 10/8kg spring rates from the Flex with 8/6kg rate springs, how would I adjust the preload? Does the preload have an effect on the actual spring rate once installed?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

whether it is due to the humidity in air going in to a tire or something else, N builds very little additional pressure compared to air. i never got into the N deal as it is a pain to haul around. i used bleeders and prior to bleeders just discounted the pressure build at startup.

the primary value in bleeders is the first lap. after that your tires are close to full pressure.

springs have what is called a "free height." that of course is the height of the spring sitting on your workbench.

when you "rate" a spring you compress it one inch from free height and zero the scale. you then compress it one inch. at one inch compression an 8 Kg spring should read 448 pounds or 8 Kg. FYI, if you compress it a second inch it should read 448 X 2 or 896.

Tein makes a spring to an installed height and rate. as each of these springs is mounted in the various makes of cars the cornerweight on the spring will vary a bit. as a result the effective spring rate will vary.

in my view, the key is to maintain the rate relationship between the front and rear and to have the right and left springs close to even at the front and rear.

hc

Sandro

iTrader: (1)

Yes, you are correct Howard. Humidity is the culprit for relatively large pressure variation. Water density decreases dramatically when liquid water becomes vapor (gas). As temperature increases inside the tire, it "creates" more vapor which causes steeper pressure build up.

Nitrogen molecules are relatively larger than other gas molecules in air, and therefore seep less. This is currently being used as a marketing tool, lower gas consumption, etc. Again, almost 80% of air is nitrogen already. Under on-the-road non-static conditions I don't think there would be such a bid difference.

- Sandro

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

as the last vestiges of winter recede the thread will turn from examining nitrogen to ontrack fun.

hang in there all.

hc

apexFD

Ok, so im back.


I have read the ENTIRE thread and took down some notes. Thanks again for starting this Howard, it is exactly what i was looking for.


So first off. My suspension is completely stock, i am looking to enhance the FD handling for mostly street purposes. Im sure ill take it to the track one day but i am mostly focusing on it being a street car with really good handling.


Based on the notes that i have taken on this thread this is my desired setup:

-Tein SS 8k/6k w/ stock pillow mounts

-Some kind of front sway bar mount reinforcement (ie. Reinforment bar and/or better mounts) What would you recommend for the street?

-I have bought the full superpro bushing kit, but as i found out i only really need to install diff/lower longitudinal link bushings. However... I would love to dismantle and paint my entire suspension system, at which point is it worth it to install all of these bushings?

-Garfinkle Torque Brace, ill order it up once my engine is back in.

-Now i am planning on running 5zigen 17x10 +35 on all 4's with 255/40/17's. Any problem with this rim size in terms of handling? Should i run 265 or 275 in the rear? This rim decision is based mostly on aesthetics.

-As far as you alignment specs, is that a good setup for a 'mostly' street car or is it too aggressive?


-What about tire pressure for the street? Should the rear tires still be a little softer? I have usually run 32psi on all 4 tires, and yes i relize my ignorance haha.


-This question is unrelated but ill go for it anyways. I was planning on keeping my Power steering for ease of use on the street, mind you my 1989 ford ranger doesnt have power steering and its not that bad once moving. Would you recommend discarding power steering for a novice driver? I too have noticed that the feel of the wheel is fairly heavy.. How much more difficult does this make a parallel park!? And what is your impressions on deleting the power steering cooling loop on the stock power steering system?




Thanks again Howard for providing 'holy grail' kind of material. This is truly a selfless act on your part.



Regards,


=Ben

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

About the tire pressure howard stated before 30/27 I beleive.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

apexFD.

it sounds like you are on the right track w the Tein SS 8/6, the proper bushings, the Garfinkle ETB. i do believe swaybars are a very important link as they will control the roll and allow you to run reasonable springs. i will be posting some additional swaybar info. i am also working on improving the availability and price of the Tein package. as to suspension settings... run exactly the setup in post one. it will work on the street and track. as mentioned, track setup will differ a bit but needs to be set w a pyrometer at the track. more on that after i get ontrack.

i would run 255 f and 275 rear but 255s would be a fine fit for a 10 inch rim.

power steering.... a subject near and dear to my heart. i have no idea why two teams of mazda engineers worked for one year, each w the sole purpose of taking weight out of the car and then added PS. Buicks have power steering. real sportscars are light, have near perfect weight distribution and manual steering. two out of three for the FD. you can make it 3 for 3.

manual steering equals road feel/feedback. PS equals video game.

i removed my PS pump, lines and cooler in 99. i have loved it ever since. i consider the steering to be light and direct. do not just remove the belt to get a sense of manual. you will then be pushing the hydraulics and the steering will have no feel and will be extremely heavy. you must remove the hydraulics and loop the lines. an afternoon job. manual steering may be my favorite mod.

a combination of AC and PS removal allows you to actually be able to change the plugs, and adds space for cooling airflow rather than heat soaking metal.

PS removal fits an important theme: front weight is EVIL. either remove everything you can from the front or relocate it to the back. i am close to 54% rear weight.

the FD, as delivered from the factory, is a thermal nightmare. it need not be. a properly re-engineered single turbo FD can have lots of room in the engine compartment. room equals coooling airflow. room equals room to work. room to check things out. there really is "room" for a bunch of re-engineering and luckily much of it has been already accomplished so it remains to search through this board and pick your poison. carefully.

if properly re-engineered the fd is almost unbeatable on track, a joy to drive around town and every bit as reliable as other high performance cars.

that's what this thread is all about.

howard

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Howard,

What kind of hose do you use to "loop the lines"? Do you just double over the one that runs from the pump directly to the rack?

Dave

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i bent the lines so they were facing each other and just used some rubber hose that fit snug.... something like fuel line. they fit well so i didn't even use clamps as there is no pressure.

hc

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Gotcha, thanks.

Dave

gracer7-rx7

iTrader: (16)

Gotham Racing sells a kit for that. Its called something like a PS loop line

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

FWIW, I also sent an email to Tein regarding permanent change of the spring rates on the SS model.

Right now they list it out of stock for the FD but I am hoping that if we can convince them that this coilover could become the goto coilover for people looking for a dual purpose bang for buck coilover. @ the 800$ Pro-Street was selling it and now 835$ that is pretty much unbeatable with the more proper spring rate as per howard (personally I am stuck on 10/8, maybe since it is a smaller change they would be more ready? I don't know).

AHarada

iTrader: (25)

I've been told that the Tein SS coilovers don't have independant height adjustment. Meaning that changing the ride height would change spring preload. This doesn't make much sense to me, but can anyone confirm this?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

just so everyone is clear... what AHarada is referring to..."independent height adjustment" is just that. it is IN ADDITION to the normal screw collar height adjustment on the typical coil over shock assembly.

independent height adjustment allows you to set the shock body so the piston is in the middle of total stroke at ride height to avoid bottoming out the piston on a lowered car.

independent height adjustment does not effect spring rate.

the only load on a spring w the car on the ground is from the car. the spring will compress until the rate equals the supported weight. any preload is "pre" load.

as i have previously mentioned, Tein coilovers are properly dimensioned so there is no need for this feature. lower your fd to 25 inches and you will not bottom the shock piston.

BTW, i have never stated nor do i feel, that Tein's are the only coil-over for the FD. i welcome additional options. i do feel that ideally they should retain the original upper rubber mount, absolutely they should offer the proper spring rate and a range of proper adjustability. my primary reason for talking Tein's is that they have worked well for me.

hc

apexFD

Thanks a lot for your reply to my earlier post Howard.


Since i have done a couple hours of research on deleting power steering i am 100% convinced in its practicality. I will start with the loop line mod, then when i can i will get my rack depowered.


Doing this mod actually saves me a LOT of money, as i broke the paper meshe pulley when i was removing my PS and i also removed the airpump/emissions and AC. So i need a larger diameter waterpump pulley. I was going to just get the entire unorthedox pulley set and call it done. So now all i need is the greddy water pump pulley . Plus i can get rid of the power steering cooler line and make my engine bay look awesome! So really this is win win win win situation for me.


So i will be looking to buy a set of Tein SS sometime in the very near future. Hopefully they can change their spring rates by then.



Regards,


=Ben

dradon03

iTrader: (2)

Ben I hope they will have changed them also.

Howard I didn't mean to say that Tein is the ****, but if we could get them to change the spring rate as you have suggested it could come into a price range where buying Ebay junk or lesser known brands with funky rates would become out of the question. Which means that overall we would all be getting a better product at a better price.

apexFD

Agreed. Lets make it so.



=Ben

AHarada

iTrader: (25)

I was looking at both the Tein SS and Flex models. Since I would be getting another set of springs with rates 8/6kg, I couldn't justify the price difference between the 2 since both use dampers that would work well.

So it seems that the Flex comes with pillow ball upper mounts and independent height adjustment, and the SS has the upper mounts as optional and doesn't have the independent height adjustment. So besides that (and having different springs), they are very similar or the same.

Thanks, all cleared up now

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

just to review the two Tein mid range offerings:

the Tein SS is PN DSM50-KUSS2 and includes

12 KG front springs PN ST120-01175

10KG rear springs PN SJ100-01200

using the standard upper mount.

either 8/6 or 10/8 are recommended. while Tein recommends revalving if changing the rate more than 2 KGs my shock dyno clearly indicates it is a non issue.

availability for the alternate rate springs is currently not great.

PN for alt springs should be obtained from Tein or a dealer.

Tein Flex

PN DSM32-6USS1 includes

10 KG front springs

8 KG rear springs

steel upper mount

same shock valving as SS. adj both at spring perch and shock body.

these might be the best way to go if spring selection on SS is limited as to availability. upper spring mount is not a dealbreaker. pls double check PNs.

hc

prew

iTrader: (9)

Howard thank you for taking the time to make your information available. I have always felt like my FD could handle much better if only I knew what I was doing suspension wise. Thanks for a great starting point.