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Standard and SAE. the environmental assumptions differ. if you want to show a bigger power number you click on STD and presto, 3% more power. in this case it would have added 17 hp. SAE is what is the proper correction used by OE etc... STD is some what shops use to create happier customers.
we race NASA (the race car people) the classes are all hp to weight, so they dyno us at the track. they are supposed to use SAE, but we've got some sheets that are STD...
its also outside, in Northern California, so temps in the morning are like 50f and foggy, but in the afternoon its 80f and sunny.
on a 136rwhp car it was +/- 20hp. so we're all scared of it because if you dyno high, you're scrambling to do something or they DQ you.
so the dyno and its settings and the day make a HUGE difference.
" the car feels great to me when driving. I'm not really feeling those misfires, is that normal?"
i imaine the car does feel good as you are making some power. it is normal to not feel misfires... they showw clearly on the dyno or on track a stopwatch.4
yes, re the meth... until you get it dialed it stumbles.
Dielectric grease is an insulator. It's good for porcelain, but not good for direct on wire connections. I doubt that's the case though but I've seen crazy stuff before. Also, I don't know if you put anti seize on your threads, but Porsche (Yes, different company, but they make engines too) recommends using none or as little as you can as they think that it can mess with the grounding of the threads on the plugs. I haven't tested it personally, but it might be worth a consideration. Haltech has a good article on ground loops and auto discharging ignition coils. It would be nice to find the logic behind all of the grounds on the coils to understand them on a deeper level. Having a ground on the engine, a ground on the battery, and a ground where the ecu is grounded whether it be the battery (Which Haltech recommends) or the chassis, it just seems open to ground loops imo.
12V Power SupplyThe IGN-1A coil can draw up to 15A. If high rpm and high power is being used, together with conventional 30A Relays to provide power, it may be necessary to have a separate fuse and relay for every pair of coils. This has been seen on some rotary installations where over 10,000 rpm is used together with high boost. If the wiring is also not cable of supplying the current required it can also limit the spark output. GroundingThe number of grounds (3x) on this coil often cause confusion. If in doubt, all grounds can be joined together and run the to cylinder head. This can eliminate issues if there is a poor engine ground strap that then pushes high current through the coil. It can also prevent a coil from firing if the engine grounding is not sufficient, and this happens as the ground lifts on the ECU signal preventing triggering. The fix is of course to improve the engine grounding
This is all direct from that article. Try playing with the grounding locations and see if that changes anything. Ground reference differentials can be a tricky thing to track down.
he’s making less than 350 whp and not going over 7500 rpm, but was peaking quite a bit earlier.
some of the replies seem a bit off the wall
he’d have to running pretty high dwell and rpm to get anywhere near the high amp ratings of an IGN-1A. In my own experience a single 20A should well cover where this should be set/operating at.
That said, I did receive an IGN-1A setup from an original purchaser with a misfire issue from new that subsequently turned to be wiring harness problems that the supplier refused to consider prior to inspection and assessment, and still continues to refuse to accept to this day after they were repaired and the system the working as it should. Which just going to the basics doing continuity etc checks revealed and pinpointed each and every problem.
It would seem more prudent to start with the basics; wiring harness grounds and looking for both obvious and intermittent wiring continuity issues, sensor accuracy, and such. I’d probably also suggest attempting to verify that the TDC timing mark is within reasonable proximity of being correct.
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he’s making less than 350 whp and not going over 7500 rpm, but was peaking quite a bit earlier.
some of the replies seem a bit off the wall
he’d have to running pretty high dwell and rpm to get anywhere near the high amp ratings of an IGN-1A. In my own experience a single 20A should well cover where this should be set/operating at.
That said, I did receive an IGN-1A setup from an original purchaser with a misfire issue from new that subsequently turned to be wiring harness problems that the supplier refused to consider prior to inspection and assessment, and still continues to refuse to accept to this day after they were repaired and the system the working as it should. Which just going to the basics doing continuity etc checks revealed and pinpointed each and every problem.
It would seem more prudent to start with the basics; wiring harness grounds and looking for both obvious and intermittent wiring continuity issues, sensor accuracy, and such. I’d probably also suggest attempting to verify that the TDC timing mark is within reasonable proximity of being correct.
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I know he was messing with dwell settings on a 3d map. think highest I saw was 4.5ms if I recall?
this is the ignition kit I'm using https://www.irperformance.com/produc...nition-system/
I got haltech coils from them too, I would like to assume coils are legit being that they are a huge haltech supplier.
tuner tried saying issue was possibly with voltage supply to coils
this kit if I remember has 3 grounds? 2 to engine (per housing) and a chassis ground which thru a union punion engine I grounded straight to battery terminal with 4 gauge wire inside car
I have upgraded the stock grounds with new grounds after the dyno session I spoke about firstly in this thread along with alternator
upgraded with 0 gauge grounds with new Cooper lugs and cables
fromt chassis to center plate
from battery to chassis inside
from battery to trans
as for only revving to 7500 that was tuners choice from beginning, not sure if its because im on stock ports or out of safety?
I appreciate every chiming it as well, Glad to see rotary community sticking together
I believe Sunday I will pull the coils and uim and take a look at grounds, been driving it last few days and trying to enjoy it. seems like every time after a dyno car sits for months again trying to diagnose and make repairs from previous session 😆
I can say luckily the engine doesn't blow and always runs, just not to its full potential which I would LOVE to reach
This may be a stretch, but I have seen it before. When installing a harness(ignition kit or whatever) i have seen the wires stretch and one of the pins slightly pull out of the clip. It didn't look like there was anything wrong but one of the pins was not making a full connection..
For those main grounds, if your battery ground is to chassis, then you shouldn't have a wire from the battery directly to the tranny. One good ground from battery to chassis and one good ground from engine to chassis is all you need. Adding more grounds is not a solution and can create headaches with ground loops. Pin C absolutely needs to be grounded to the particular rotor housing the coil is wired too. Pin B should be grounded where your ecu is grounded which is most likely the chassis. The final ground (Pin D) should be where your battery ground is which should probably be the chassis as well. I would bet either B&D being paired at the ecu ground where it connects to either battery or chassis and Pin C on the rotor housing or having all on the rotor housing would do it if the pins are in fact fully making contact. I would bank on option A.
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/17...i.html?page=58
Here is a page that represents how things are connected through the coil. Pin C is only continuous with the secondary winding while all others are connected to the primary. This can also help diagnose a bad coil which could be helpful to everyone.
I pulled the uim to check out grounds. the housings werent perfectly clean where i grounded them but ive seen worse. i went ahead and sanded them down.
on r2 housing ground I also another lead running from to the firewall in 10 gauge. i went ahead and removed it. that way single eyelid contacting housing for ground
(I still have the factory ground from firewall to uim)
rotor 1 ground I have sitting on top of uim bracket holder, went to loosen it and came loose pretty easy so maybe that ground wasnt that tight? i wasnt able to move wire side to side before so idk
i may remove that bracket and clean the top of housing and just thighten ground there
i have 4 coil grounds, those 2 on rotor housings. a chassis ground and a battery ground
for the battery ground i have it on a battery junction stud in engine bay and ran a 4 gauge straight from battery inside to that lug in bay
now here comes the interesting part, i went ahead and tested the spark plug wires
trailing 2 had 125 ohms
leading 2 had 123 ohms
trailing 1 had 103 ohms
leading 1 had 1.7k ohms
WHAT WAIT 1.7k ohms. I've tested several times and yes that was right.
maybe that's my issue?! weird only one
I also checked gap on ffe trigger sensor and wheel and it's between .050 &.060 so I think thats good
after looking online I noticed alot of wires that have awhole lot more of resistance then what I have in that one wire. so now I'm even double thinking of that possibly even being the answer. it IS out of spec for msd wire but is it really bad enough to cause my problem? I don't know. I sure hope so
Spiral conductor ignition wires that most performance parts marketers include in their product lines sold through speed shops and mass-merchandisers in the USA will function satisfactorily on a carbureted race or modified street engine — however, none will prevent EMI from interfering with a modern engine’s electronic ignition and fuel management system, or any other on-board electronic device. Most “low-resistance” and “super” conductor etc. wires are nothing more than branded cheaply constructed generic spiral conductor wires containing conductors that won’t provide (despite claims) either adequate EMI or RFI. More expensive versions are dressed-up in elaborate colorful sleeves to protect inferior jackets against the heat of a race motor. EMI radiated from these ignition wires can adversely affect the function of computer managed electronic ignition and fuel systems, which in turn, will decrease engine efficiency. Some of these wires have been made to resemble Magnecor Race Wires in both color and cable diameter, however the conductors and insulating jackets used are entirely different.
EMI = electromagnetic interference EMI from spark plug wires can cause erroneous signals to be sent to engine management systems and other on-board electronic devices used on both racing and street vehicles in the same manner as RFI (radio frequency interference) can cause unwanted signals to be heard on a radio receiver. Engine driveability problems ranging from intermittent misfiring to a dramatic loss of power can result when engine management computers receive signals from sensors that have been altered by EMI radiating from spark plug wires. This problem is most noticeable on modern street vehicles used for commuting where virtually every function of the vehicle’s drive train is managed by a computer.
i recommend you spend some time on the Magnecor site and swap in a set of their wires.
you need to buy an HEI coil tester and run it on that plug wire. If bad or no spark then directly touching the coil terminal or with a known good plug wire to verify if it’s the wire or coil.
It looks like a side gap type spark plug with a grounding clamp and can be bought cheap here in the USA, but it essentially load tests the coil and if you start the engine with it on that wire it’s going to reveal whether your getting a strong consistent spark or not with the engine idling.
OTC 6589 HEI
Maybe $20 or so depending on the source
there is also a non-HEI version (different part no.) so be careful.
don’t be fooled by the simplicity or price, for the cost this tool should be in every auto enthusiast’s tool box to quickly diagnose HEI coil and plug wire integrity.
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12V Power SupplyThe IGN-1A coil can draw up to 15A. If high rpm and high power is being used, together with conventional 30A Relays to provide power, it may be necessary to have a separate fuse and relay for every pair of coils. This has been seen on some rotary installations where over 10,000 rpm is used together with high boost. If the wiring is also not cable of supplying the current required it can also limit the spark output. GroundingThe number of grounds (3x) on this coil often cause confusion. If in doubt, all grounds can be joined together and run the to cylinder head. This can eliminate issues if there is a poor engine ground strap that then pushes high current through the coil. It can also prevent a coil from firing if the engine grounding is not sufficient, and this happens as the ground lifts on the ECU signal preventing triggering. The fix is of course to improve the engine grounding
This is all direct from that article. Try playing with the grounding locations and see if that changes anything. Ground reference differentials can be a tricky thing to track down.
Given charge saturation time, duty cycle max and combustion event frequency, this is not true for a rotary.
Also these numbers that get thrown around of current draw at peak completely confuse most people as they're not taking into account the things I just mentioned. Case in point: I design all my wiring harnesses with 22awg feeds of tefzel to each coil from a 14awg trunk, theoretical current draw with dwell time of 4.5ms and 70% duty cycle is an average of ~4 amps. In practice looking at logs on my PDMs the current draw from that circuit is just over 16 amps peak over the course of a 30 minute race for 4 coils.
unless there was more going on with that wire than what you measured, the resistor ohm rating in the spark plug is a lot higher than that, also have to consider that the unit of measurement is ohm/foot; a long wire is going to have more total resistance than a short one
not a big fan of long wires myself
Renesis IGN-1A
nothing wrong with having the wires match or be close to each other, but it seems like there has to be more going on to cause a proper IGN-1A ignition to have misfires at such a low load/output level.
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ya the spec from MSD was 50 ohms/ft
all 4 wires are pretty close in length so they should all have been in same ball park
I'm hoping with the spark plug wire replacement and cleaning of the engine grounds for coils that i should be ok
maybe there is some ohm test for coil i should try? weird thing is i dont feel a misfire, i would have thought if something was terribly off i would "feel" it more?
The electrician in me is saying eww right now. Tho this is most likely not your problem, since you have found a plug wire that was way outside matching resistance to your others, I do have a suggestion. When you make up grounds or any connection really, you need to make sure you do not have any insulation touching / under / obstructing the fastener or terminal. When you make up those grounds you should have of course clean connections, but be able to see the ring all way around the fastener. When insulation gets underneath, it creates a poor connection. Also, dielectric is an insulator. It’s one thing to put it on top of your connections, but It just bugs me when people put it between then assemble them. It’s kind of counterproductive. I would change that flange bolt out for something a little smaller. I find Allen head stuff works well for ring grounds. Or you could just cut some insulation back. Just my two cents.
Just keep plugging away at your issue, most would’ve given up by now. Way to hang in there.
04-07-23, 12:26 PM
