stock port rew/ efr 8374 low on power?
07-26-23, 04:39 PM
#227
Full Member
nice I should place an order
an update on mine, I wanted to verify timing again on my haltech so I grabbed a basic timing gun. just point and shoot
so I set advance to be 15*
and the trailing split advance (the amount of retard the trailing spark will fire relative from the ign lock firing angle) to 15*
an update on mine, I wanted to verify timing again on my haltech so I grabbed a basic timing gun. just point and shoot
so I set advance to be 15*
and the trailing split advance (the amount of retard the trailing spark will fire relative from the ign lock firing angle) to 15*
Make sure you have a good spot where the timing light sensor is on the spark cable, make sure it's not touching the other spark wire when your checking it, could just be some interference.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 07-26-23 at 04:41 PM.
07-26-23, 08:22 PM
#229
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Guys, these kind of videos are why slo-mo is a thing on smartphones.
From the videos, it's not apparent that anything is happening except your light isn't picking up every ignition event.
I could have sworn timing shifting (despite being locked) during acceleration with IGN1As was mentioned as a issue in one of the ongoing troubleshooting threads?
From the videos, it's not apparent that anything is happening except your light isn't picking up every ignition event.
I could have sworn timing shifting (despite being locked) during acceleration with IGN1As was mentioned as a issue in one of the ongoing troubleshooting threads?
Last edited by Valkyrie; 07-26-23 at 08:44 PM.
07-26-23, 08:49 PM
#230
Guys, these kind of videos are why slo-mo is a thing on smartphones.
From the videos, it's not apparent that anything is happening except your light isn't picking up every ignition event.
I could have sworn timing shifting (despite being locked) during acceleration with IGN1As was mentioned as a issue in one of the ongoing troubleshooting threads?
From the videos, it's not apparent that anything is happening except your light isn't picking up every ignition event.
I could have sworn timing shifting (despite being locked) during acceleration with IGN1As was mentioned as a issue in one of the ongoing troubleshooting threads?
I have not heard about that being an issue? was that on 7club?
07-26-23, 08:59 PM
#231
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
I am pretty sure I read something about locked timing shifting in one of two big current rebuild threads. I couldn't even begin to tell you which thread or which page it was...
08-03-23, 08:42 AM
#233
Full Member
Very interesting read. I ran outside and immediately checked my spark plug wires for the arcing to but thankfully found nothing. I still reached out to magnecor and requested a quote for a set of their largest diameter wires.
08-06-23, 03:09 PM
#234
just drove it with new wires, dont really feel a noticeable difference
as for the timing jump on trailing coil. I swapped the coils, and it stayed the same. I guess it is the gun, if I moved spark plug wire closer to pickup for timing gun it would freak out, if I moved it away it would read ok
and that is with both msd and Magnecor spark plug wires
struck out again
as for the timing jump on trailing coil. I swapped the coils, and it stayed the same. I guess it is the gun, if I moved spark plug wire closer to pickup for timing gun it would freak out, if I moved it away it would read ok
and that is with both msd and Magnecor spark plug wires
struck out again
Last edited by AlexG13B; 08-06-23 at 07:07 PM.
08-06-23, 04:07 PM
#235
(edit first sentence, since OP edited their statement from 'feels better' to 'does not feel better') That's too bad the car feels the same after swapping spark plug wires. Have you checked for arc'ing with the engine running when it's dark?
I wouldn't be too surprised if your timing light is getting triggered by nearby coil wires, if that's what you mean.
If you want to rule out the trailing coil to make sure it's not jumping timing or firing extra sparks, I would use your oscilloscope's current clamp to measure the power wire feeding that one trailing coil. Use the voltage clamp to measure the signal wire for the leading coil, assuming the leading coil never seems to act weird you can use it as a reference. Assuming you watch two coils from the same rotor, the expected behavior is the leading coil's voltage trigger will usually be 0V, then a brief pulse of 5V which lasts about 2ms - 4ms (to charge the coil), then low again for about 40ms - 60ms assuming the engine is idling at 1000-1500 RPM. The trailing coil's current should usually be low, then it will begin ramping up maybe 1ms - 2ms after the leading coils' voltage trigger has gone high. The ramp time should be about 2ms - 4ms (similar to the leading coil high pulse time), then it will go back to zero when the coil fires, then the same 40 ms - 60ms low time as the leading coil. The ramping current represents the coil dwell time when the ECU has commanded the coil to charge, the spark will happen when the ramp quickly drops to zero amps. The current for the trailing coil shouldn't show two stacked ramps like was on your previous screenshot where you were measuring a shared power wire feeding multiple coils, and the ramp for the trailing coil should never happen before the trigger for the same rotor's leading coil.
Note that it's common for the oscilloscope probe to show brief high spikes when a spark plug fires. The oscilloscope probes act like antennas and pick up the magnetic interference caused by the spark event. Those high spikes aren't necessarily causing interference on the coil trigger signals, the oscilloscope probes would measure similar spikes on nearly every signal in the car's engine bay.
As an aside, I agree with others who said it should be better to have the two leading coils physically located near each other, to avoid the T1 coil getting triggered by noise from the L2 coil. If it's easy to swap your T1 and L1 coils, that might be worth a try.
As a second aside, if your datalogs show the engine running richer than before swapping spark plug wires, remember that misfires will show lean on a wideband sensor. You can prove this by unplugging the power harness for both of the front ignition coils and watching the wideband O2 reading. If you're having less misfires now, the mixture might show richer than before if it had been misfiring. If someone simply added fuel to a misfiring engine because the wideband showed lean, that would have made the actual combustion events richer (so the average mixture reported by the sensor gets richer). If you're seeing crazy rich like 10.0 AFR or 9.9 AFR on gasoline, I would take some fuel out unless your tuner specifically advises against that.
I wouldn't be too surprised if your timing light is getting triggered by nearby coil wires, if that's what you mean.
If you want to rule out the trailing coil to make sure it's not jumping timing or firing extra sparks, I would use your oscilloscope's current clamp to measure the power wire feeding that one trailing coil. Use the voltage clamp to measure the signal wire for the leading coil, assuming the leading coil never seems to act weird you can use it as a reference. Assuming you watch two coils from the same rotor, the expected behavior is the leading coil's voltage trigger will usually be 0V, then a brief pulse of 5V which lasts about 2ms - 4ms (to charge the coil), then low again for about 40ms - 60ms assuming the engine is idling at 1000-1500 RPM. The trailing coil's current should usually be low, then it will begin ramping up maybe 1ms - 2ms after the leading coils' voltage trigger has gone high. The ramp time should be about 2ms - 4ms (similar to the leading coil high pulse time), then it will go back to zero when the coil fires, then the same 40 ms - 60ms low time as the leading coil. The ramping current represents the coil dwell time when the ECU has commanded the coil to charge, the spark will happen when the ramp quickly drops to zero amps. The current for the trailing coil shouldn't show two stacked ramps like was on your previous screenshot where you were measuring a shared power wire feeding multiple coils, and the ramp for the trailing coil should never happen before the trigger for the same rotor's leading coil.
Note that it's common for the oscilloscope probe to show brief high spikes when a spark plug fires. The oscilloscope probes act like antennas and pick up the magnetic interference caused by the spark event. Those high spikes aren't necessarily causing interference on the coil trigger signals, the oscilloscope probes would measure similar spikes on nearly every signal in the car's engine bay.
As an aside, I agree with others who said it should be better to have the two leading coils physically located near each other, to avoid the T1 coil getting triggered by noise from the L2 coil. If it's easy to swap your T1 and L1 coils, that might be worth a try.
As a second aside, if your datalogs show the engine running richer than before swapping spark plug wires, remember that misfires will show lean on a wideband sensor. You can prove this by unplugging the power harness for both of the front ignition coils and watching the wideband O2 reading. If you're having less misfires now, the mixture might show richer than before if it had been misfiring. If someone simply added fuel to a misfiring engine because the wideband showed lean, that would have made the actual combustion events richer (so the average mixture reported by the sensor gets richer). If you're seeing crazy rich like 10.0 AFR or 9.9 AFR on gasoline, I would take some fuel out unless your tuner specifically advises against that.
Last edited by scotty305; 08-06-23 at 08:12 PM.
08-06-23, 04:28 PM
#236
Also, it's very difficult to catch a timing light on video. At 1000 RPM, there are 16.6 crankshaft rotations per second. That doesn't sound too bad, since your phone camera in 2023 can probably capture 60 frames per second video, and likely over 240 frames per second in slow-motion mode. But remember that there are 360 degrees per rotation, and if we assume the timing light flashes for about one degree then would need a camera that runs at 6000 frames per second to capture one frame per crankshaft degree. If we assume the timing light will be active for 2-3 degrees (which might not be likely), then the camera only needs to capture 2000-3000 frames per second at 1000 RPM.
We don't need the camera to catch every single spark, but the odds of capturing a frame at the right time are pretty slim.
We don't need the camera to catch every single spark, but the odds of capturing a frame at the right time are pretty slim.
08-06-23, 07:10 PM
#237
I apologize I meant to say that I DIDNT really feel a difference, stupid auto correct.
I may try and physically move the trailing coils next to each other like you have suggested
I don't understand why I have such a common setup that a bunch of other people have and I'm like the only one with issues
I may try and physically move the trailing coils next to each other like you have suggested
I don't understand why I have such a common setup that a bunch of other people have and I'm like the only one with issues
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ogmikeG (10-23-23)
08-07-23, 11:48 AM
#238
Is it the dyno power figure or the lack zero smoothing graph that is pushing you to think you're setup is out of whack compared to others? or both? How do you know 99% of the other builds don't have the same zero smoothing issue?
Do you have the option to reinstall the stock trigger wheel, reconfirm timing and tune? See if car feels different, wakes up.
Most of what you see online in terms of power figures are inflated, and if they're not, it's because the intake and exhaust is less restrictive than yours, or different fuel type. I understand you're losing power when AI is introduced, compared to no AI. But do you know if more timing had been added?
Is it possible the ecu isn't recognizing every trigger wheel rotation. If it is, I wonder if the motherboard isn't sending out a spark signal to the coils each time it should be.
A fellow RX7 buddy had ignition issues with his Adaptronic, the coil input and outputs died one by one. After 6 months of diagnostic work with Adaptronic's tech department, they finally agreed to send him a replacement. Plugged it in and issue was gone. Moral of the story, it's possible the ecu is faulty or a trigger sensor isn't working properly.
Do you have the option to reinstall the stock trigger wheel, reconfirm timing and tune? See if car feels different, wakes up.
Most of what you see online in terms of power figures are inflated, and if they're not, it's because the intake and exhaust is less restrictive than yours, or different fuel type. I understand you're losing power when AI is introduced, compared to no AI. But do you know if more timing had been added?
Is it possible the ecu isn't recognizing every trigger wheel rotation. If it is, I wonder if the motherboard isn't sending out a spark signal to the coils each time it should be.
A fellow RX7 buddy had ignition issues with his Adaptronic, the coil input and outputs died one by one. After 6 months of diagnostic work with Adaptronic's tech department, they finally agreed to send him a replacement. Plugged it in and issue was gone. Moral of the story, it's possible the ecu is faulty or a trigger sensor isn't working properly.
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Howard Coleman (08-07-23)
08-07-23, 01:15 PM
#239
Is it the dyno power figure or the lack zero smoothing graph that is pushing you to think you're setup is out of whack compared to others? or both? How do you know 99% of the other builds don't have the same zero smoothing issue?
Do you have the option to reinstall the stock trigger wheel, reconfirm timing and tune? See if car feels different, wakes up.
Most of what you see online in terms of power figures are inflated, and if they're not, it's because the intake and exhaust is less restrictive than yours, or different fuel type. I understand you're losing power when AI is introduced, compared to no AI. But do you know if more timing had been added?
Is it possible the ecu isn't recognizing every trigger wheel rotation. If it is, I wonder if the motherboard isn't sending out a spark signal to the coils each time it should be.
A fellow RX7 buddy had ignition issues with his Adaptronic, the coil input and outputs died one by one. After 6 months of diagnostic work with Adaptronic's tech department, they finally agreed to send him a replacement. Plugged it in and issue was gone. Moral of the story, it's possible the ecu is faulty or a trigger sensor isn't working properly.
Do you have the option to reinstall the stock trigger wheel, reconfirm timing and tune? See if car feels different, wakes up.
Most of what you see online in terms of power figures are inflated, and if they're not, it's because the intake and exhaust is less restrictive than yours, or different fuel type. I understand you're losing power when AI is introduced, compared to no AI. But do you know if more timing had been added?
Is it possible the ecu isn't recognizing every trigger wheel rotation. If it is, I wonder if the motherboard isn't sending out a spark signal to the coils each time it should be.
A fellow RX7 buddy had ignition issues with his Adaptronic, the coil input and outputs died one by one. After 6 months of diagnostic work with Adaptronic's tech department, they finally agreed to send him a replacement. Plugged it in and issue was gone. Moral of the story, it's possible the ecu is faulty or a trigger sensor isn't working properly.
I'm going by the graph and tuner says something is wrong. he should have been making more power with the increase of boost. he didn't even look at the 0 smoothing, that was just something I checked per people chiming in this thread.
he said i wasnt gaining enough power with the added boost, enough so that he stopped the dyno session because he didn't feel comfortable pushing the matter.
I tend to believe/trust what he says with his experience tuning these cars. he says my hp at 14 psi is about average
has done some with more and less hp at same boost and engine configuration
guess its more of the hp delta between less boost and more boost barely making more and not so much the numbers exactly?
I don't feel misfiring, or hesitation, im so tired of trying to diagnose this issue that im half tempted to just leave it alone and enjoy as is
I just want the issue (if there is indeed one) to cause my engine harm down the line
I haven't seen not one timing code set on haltech so I guess that's good?
Last edited by AlexG13B; 08-07-23 at 02:56 PM.
08-30-23, 10:45 AM
#240
wonder if I could be injecting too much AI? using a snowperformance 20gph nozzle post ic
with a 50/50 mix, wonder if its just too much water being injected causing the power lost
I got on it again yesterday and again the 18 psi map feels slower then just the 14 psi pump fuel map
ai is progresprogressively being injected
with a 50/50 mix, wonder if its just too much water being injected causing the power lost
I got on it again yesterday and again the 18 psi map feels slower then just the 14 psi pump fuel map
ai is progresprogressively being injected
08-30-23, 10:52 AM
#241
Full Member
wonder if I could be injecting too much AI? using a snowperformance 20gph nozzle post ic
with a 50/50 mix, wonder if its just too much water being injected causing the power lost
I got on it again yesterday and again the 18 psi map feels slower then just the 14 psi pump fuel map
ai is progresprogressively being injected
with a 50/50 mix, wonder if its just too much water being injected causing the power lost
I got on it again yesterday and again the 18 psi map feels slower then just the 14 psi pump fuel map
ai is progresprogressively being injected
I am running 11 psi ~ around 300HP. I am using a 250cc nozzle and am only running it at max 70% duty cycle at 7000 RPM 11PSI.
I used to run a 500cc nozzle at 100% at 7000RPM 11PSI but realized it was too much and it was heavily affecting my AFRs
08-30-23, 02:30 PM
#242
Originally Posted by AlexG13B
wonder if I could be injecting too much AI? using a snowperformance 20gph nozzle post ic
with a 50/50 mix, wonder if its just too much water being injected causing the power lost
I got on it again yesterday and again the 18 psi map feels slower then just the 14 psi pump fuel map
ai is progresprogressively being injected
with a 50/50 mix, wonder if its just too much water being injected causing the power lost
I got on it again yesterday and again the 18 psi map feels slower then just the 14 psi pump fuel map
ai is progresprogressively being injected
Btw, are you pulsing the ProMeth solenoid valve via PWM? I'd recommend setting the progressive feed range at least double your starting point; I.e., 14-28psi, or still greater. The larger the span (even though you won't be exceeding 18psi of boost w your current goals) will equate to smaller increments of progressive flow capacity so you'll have less chance of quenching if your nozzle size is still too big @ 10gph. And you can always dial in that upper range, as applicable, to achieve optimum results.
Note: 63ml/min equates to 1gph.
Last edited by Topolino; 08-30-23 at 05:23 PM.
08-30-23, 09:04 PM
#243
Wowza! That's a TON of AI being injected. Try bumping that down to something in the 8-10gph nozzle range to avoid the quenching effect you're likely experiencing w the oversized nozzle as-is. You'll achieve better atomization w the smaller nozzle, too.
Btw, are you pulsing the ProMeth solenoid valve via PWM? I'd recommend setting the progressive feed range at least double your starting point; I.e., 14-28psi, or still greater. The larger the span (even though you won't be exceeding 18psi of boost w your current goals) will equate to smaller increments of progressive flow capacity so you'll have less chance of quenching if your nozzle size is still too big @ 10gph. And you can always dial in that upper range, as applicable, to achieve optimum results.
Note: 63ml/min equates to 1gph.
Btw, are you pulsing the ProMeth solenoid valve via PWM? I'd recommend setting the progressive feed range at least double your starting point; I.e., 14-28psi, or still greater. The larger the span (even though you won't be exceeding 18psi of boost w your current goals) will equate to smaller increments of progressive flow capacity so you'll have less chance of quenching if your nozzle size is still too big @ 10gph. And you can always dial in that upper range, as applicable, to achieve optimum results.
Note: 63ml/min equates to 1gph.
from my understanding and searching, this 20gph flows similar to what the aem large nozzle does, their flow rating of 1000cc or 10gph or wrong
it's actually higher when spraying at higher pressure
right now it's like 75% being used I think of total nozzle flow
08-31-23, 09:56 AM
#244
Full Member
You need to be carful too, some of those AI nozzles show their rating for so many CC's at 100psi... but in reality I think the pump operates at a much higher pressure, so for example a nozzle rated for 1000CC at 100psi is going to flow much more if the AI pump actually operates at like 150psi.
08-31-23, 11:38 AM
#245
Arrogant Wankeler
You need to be carful too, some of those AI nozzles show their rating for so many CC's at 100psi... but in reality I think the pump operates at a much higher pressure, so for example a nozzle rated for 1000CC at 100psi is going to flow much more if the AI pump actually operates at like 150psi.
flow at new pressure = SQRT(NEW PRESSURE/RATED PRESSURE)
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RotaryMachineRx (09-01-23)
08-31-23, 12:51 PM
#246
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how hard would it be to put just water in it, and see how much it actually pumps in a given time? that way you'd actually know and not be guessing
like we do with fuel pumps on carbed cars. put nozzle in a known size container, and turn it on for ~30 seconds
like we do with fuel pumps on carbed cars. put nozzle in a known size container, and turn it on for ~30 seconds
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scotty305 (08-31-23)
08-31-23, 09:53 PM
#248
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Did it not make the expected power *without* water/alcohol injection? Or did you not even dyno it without injection?
You'd think the tuner would pay attention to things like the injection flow rate...
You'd think the tuner would pay attention to things like the injection flow rate...
09-01-23, 05:17 AM
#250
ya l I think the pump fuel map power is prob average, it does gain hp with the ai and the extra 3 psi of boost but minimal
and on the street going back and fourth between two maps I always feel like the 18 psi map is slower. doesn't feel as strong
I do remember when testing the aem nozzles their "ratings " were alot lower then we I was actually recording
the LG nozzle was like 1500cc or sometimes 1700cc at 200 psi or so
and on the street going back and fourth between two maps I always feel like the 18 psi map is slower. doesn't feel as strong
I do remember when testing the aem nozzles their "ratings " were alot lower then we I was actually recording
the LG nozzle was like 1500cc or sometimes 1700cc at 200 psi or so