Well, you asked for it...

If I had kept records for all the little things you posted on forums, it would make this thread look stupid.
But, I'm not the type to get caught up in that kinda pettiness.

All your turbo BP theories I've busted.
Your supposed BP ports don't work as well as they can be - just ask any BP expert.
The dyno sheets prove how well they work....or not work.
I don't need to prove anything - it's all there in the dyno sheets.

I've busted your weird notion that the turbo BP makes superior power down low.
The dyno graphs PROVE it's inferior prior to 4kRPM.
I don't need to prove anything.
The proof is in the dyno sheets.

I've seen your Haltech maps.
Granted, this was a few years ago, but they are not as clean as they can be.

All your fancy polished ports don't impress me.
Sure, for customers who don't know better, it's pretty and impressive.
In reality, polishing the intake port runners is detrimental to intake charge airflow.
I think the V8 guys have been doing this longer, and they do not polish their intake passages.
So to me, polishing them up does little for perfomance.

I don't doubt you can make big power.
In fact, I don't think I EVER claimed you couldn't.
There are things other that making big power that has to do with the word "performance".
If you can't understand that statement, then it's not even worth going further.

Yeah, I knew it was going to end up being a resume fight.
I'm sorry I don't have anything current that can rival your numbers.
Oh, don't worry, I do have stuff I'm working on that should at least come close.
I guess I need to apologize in advance that my life is not exactly in the best of shape right now, and most of my customers are not made of money or can afford my services at full billing.
What I do claim that every customer I had was happy when the job was completed (with the exception of maybe hIGGI due to the fiasco with the Haltech E11V1).
I don't BULLSHIT or overstate claims, and I try to do a thorough job going through all options available.
My customers don't need BP's to make big power; if it's ultimate power they want, the option is there, but most of them do not need a BP.
There should be NO "street" rotary that NEEDS a BP to make good power - better reread that again before you go replying to that unnecessarily.
I can understand where BP's are worth it for race cars, but *I* find them unnecessary on the street.

Don't be thinking you magically figured out the secret to BP'ing a turbo 13B.
Other people have been doing this a whole lot longer than you have, and I would trust their opinions before trusting yours.
You are not doing anything new.
Even if others claim this is some new tech breakthrough, it isn't.
All I need is a peek at your dyno graph, and this gives me all the evidence I need to back up my notions.

And you know what...
I don't do this for the glory.
I don't ask my customers to go "up to bat" for me.
I always thought this was for the customers?
As long as they are happy, that's all that matters.
It just happens that you have a lot more online customers who freely posts on these online forums.
Hell, I'll concede that you have more customers period.
I don't have time to take care more than maybe half a dozen customers full-time and maybe another dozen customers part-time.
I feel it's unfair to my customers to be spreading myself too thin.
I do a lot of work with one customer with the 20B, which I am not charging him for a lot of work - if I did, his tab would be close to $10,000 right now.
If it's (Internet) reputation you're looking for, sure, you win.
This kinda loss I really don't give a **** about.
So go throw yourself a party and pat yourself on the back...


-Ted

 

Who are you?
I never said that.


-Ted

 

Hey Ted, Maybe i can help clear up some things that you seem to be mistaken about.
*I* have seen numerous porting jobs of Brian's up close, and have not once seen him polish his intake ports, so there you have the ACTUAL upfront truth about that. Secondly
your dynograph versions of the BP car we dynoed seem to be inaccurate due to the fact
I was the one working dynojet and printed off the sheets, and they dont look anywhere near the same as far as scaling goes, IN FACT the the figures seemed to be skewed in your favor. Thirdly, *I* have driven the SAME exact car with a previous streetport and THEN with a half-bridgeport, no other mods changed(which includes same turbo). If you could please, answer why did the car feel more alive, no low-end loss to my feeling, BETTER mid-range and tons of top. I even remember the turbo boosting earlier and harder. IMO the car feels tons better ALL AROUND, what is the reason behind that. The only way to compare a streetport to a bridgeport is to compare the two on the same car. you cant base your opinions on a comparision between two cars that have totally different factors that determine power ranges, they have to be done on the same vehicle or something that has the exact same set-up. If i have missed anything thing you still have confusion about let me know.

ERic.

 

You know what BDC you are correct, I didn't mean to attack him personally! I simply meant to say that the alligation that a Hyrbid will "blow" an engine due to the use of a hybrid based on back pressure is not at all proven in any way. but I do agree that with increased power comes less engine life. There aboslutely no facts that an engine will die prematurely due to the use of a hyrbid. a properly built hybrid will not create any more back pressure than the stock setup would at it's respective power setup.
So Bond i appolagize for attacking you personally your pm has been responded to accordingly.
Again I would like to see anybody that would like to say that hybrids decrease engine life due to the fact that they are hybrids alone. by making three cars. one with the exact same hp with a full upgrade one with stock and one with a hybrid with comparable to the full upgrade due to power and see which one blows first with all data and being loged and cars under identical conditions... this is what all major manufactuters do to figure out their best course of action.

 

I've put in a request to pull my replies due to being way off-topic, and apologies to the original posted for crapping in this thread.

Yeah, you're right BDC, I haven't done as many engine and made as much power as you have.

Care to tell me how many more engine I have to kill before I can attain your level or skill?
Hell, I'll go first...
*front oil pressure regulator fell out - loss of oil pressure killed oil control o-rings
*rear oil pressure regulator fell out - loss of oil pressure killed oil control o-rings and killed all bearings
*thrust bearing slipped - motor seized
*E11V1 stopped working when engine was under boost - motor pinged and killed apex seal
*E11V1 mis-wired HOME wires - motor just died, but upon teardown apex seal failed

As for the BP making less power on the dyno graph, it's overlap that kills low end power.
I took my numbers from the dyno graphs provided.
BDC posted an old one from Farkas, and the other one was provided by another forum member (Kahren?).
If you got another dyno graph, I'd be happy to use that one and replot the comparo.
As far as I know, both dyno graphs were produced on a DynoJet.
I can't comment on why you think the BP is faster on the low end.
I can only interpret what's on the dyno graphs.

I still don't know how increased back pressure kills engine.
Could someone please explain to me this theory?
I use EGT gauges to tune Haltechs.
If there was a problem with back pressure causing some kinda increased heat in the engine, I would've noticed on the EGT gauge.
In fact, most full turbo upgrades I've tuned actually showed higher EGT's due to more exhaust (i.e. heat) flowing through the turbo.

If back pressure was a significant problem, why would stock vehicles run restrictive catalytics and smallish exhaust systems?
If back pressure was a signficant problem, wouldn't all the stock vehicles die prematurely?
If back pressure was a significant problem, why wouldn't automobile manufacturers run the least restrictive exhaust systems for longer engine life?

I'll answer my own question.
No, back pressure does not prematurely shorten the engine's life.
Back pressure just restricts "air flow" through the engine.
Restriction of "air flow" supresses power.
If there is significant back pressure, all it does is supress power.
So, yes, the hybrid does induce more back pressure than a full turbo does, but it does not shorten engine life.
Yes, the hybrid might supress power due to back pressure, but can you tell the difference between 300hp and 320hp?

I still stand by my statement: a hybrid turbo does have a proper place in power upgrades when a limited budget is taken into account.

Sure, a hybrid is not the best option; it's a compromise.
EVERYTHING is a compromise.
Are you running a pricy HKS ball bearing turbo?
The HKS BB turbos seem the be the ultimate turbo available; surely it's one of the most expensive.
I bet even BDC hasn't touched one of those yet.
So that makes anything other than an HKS BB turbo (i.e. the best) a compromise...


If you read through all of this, you must be BORED!


-Ted

 

Follower here, thanks ted. We could use a turbo builder on this forum, i tried to get mine but he couldn't stop laughing long enough to type. Ted, none of us knows everything its ok to agree once in awhile. The only testing ive done is on my car, changed to a Q trim wheel and what do you know. I reported back to my turbo builder that i dropped 200 degrees in egt with every other setting staying the same. Backpressure wont hurt the engine, its what it creates that will. Didnt Corky Bell wright a couple of books on this. I cant wait to hear this, next thing you know Mr. Bell will be an idiot as well.

BDC, where we goin im followin you.

 

woah.... calm down people... i just want some opinion to choose turbo... and evidence to support it.... dont need to be all harsh to one another...

the 7 unites us all ...

 

I agree with this if all you want is say 250 to 350rwhp. Also, hybrids flow better and have less backpressure than the stock setup so reliability shouldn't be an issue for a street driven car.

BDC,
What you're saying about the exhaust housing and less backpressure makes perfect sense, also Rice Racings's philosophy, but all Ted was saying was that the hybrids are ok for daily driven low HP rotaries for people on a limited budget.

 

Hybrids flow better in what sense? Less exhaust backpressure? Did you read the entire thread?

 

hmm maybe he meant was for a street car and a once a month racer type of car ....which is my main objective

 

He ment compared to a stock turbo..


At least the hybrid has a clipped turbine wheel compared to a stock turbo..



I'm going full T04E either way. But i do have one question.


if exhaust flow is best, i have a 13B with a small street port (just cleaned up ports)

Now which would be better? a To4E P trim /w 1.15 A/R or a To4E Q trim /w .84 A/R

Compressor will prolly be a .60 or .70A/R


(Obviously i may have to play with the A/Rs a little for the right power band.)

 

The Q would be overkill for a T04E, you didnt mention which T04E but doesnt matter its still to big. My guess is the 1.15 is to big, probably a 1.00 or .96 on that P. Like you said your gonna play with the a/rs for the right pwr band. It would help to know which comp trim your choosing, i thought the E's had 3 like 50, 57, and 60. Post that and will go from there.

mike

 

Well, i have been thinking of doing the mach to4S. So a To4E with a 60-1 compressor wheel and housing. which is a 70mm wheel i believe.

I figured Q was too big but i figured with the train of thought that flow is better a Q trim with a small a/r maybe better then a P trim with a larger A/R. Figured it didnt hurt to ask

 

Not all hybrids are built with a clipped turbine wheel. You would be amazed how many hybrids are out there with only an upgraded compressor-side, and no hotside upgrades. And besides, clipping a turbine wheel reduces turbo response time. This is why BNR lists their hybrids as getting full-boost around 3800-4000rpm.

A 60-1 wheel is a 59.0mm inducer... not 70mm. It has a 76mm exducer though... That's a good sized turbo, but I doubt you could make good use of a Q-trim turbine wheel with that setup. As Bond mentioned, stick with a P-trim wheel with probably a 1.00 divided housing.

 

Use a TO4E 57 ot 60 trim with a P-Trim 1.15 div or 0.96 A/R undiv tang.

B

 

I am not sure, so its just my 2 cents worth Playing with the turbos might be fun, but, isn't 92 psi kinda low? I would think that vice wasting money on another turbo, I would pore all of my resources into a rebuild, a fresh engine with lots of compression will beat out either turbo any day (after yuo blow the engine!) lol not trying to be a smart ***, I am used to kg measurements and anything below 8 I refuse to touch I was thinking somebody told me that a fresh engine ahould get like a 120~130 PSI is so then 92 sounds kinda low. My 2 cents.

 

You guys are always good about helping to spread the rotary vibe, and its a good feeling vibe so howabout a relaxing and enjoying it? Sometimes people get hot. I have at one time or another PM ed I think both of you in regards to my cosmo and all of its freaking problems, and each and everytime you have unfailingly offered words of advice, and wisdom oftentimes pointed to related web pages, and info so

1. relax
2. say to yourself it really doesn't matter,
3. Go drive your car for about an hour or two (Ted drive in circles the islands small
4. and finally drink a beer, roll one whatever.

ken

 

did someone say they where selling their stage 3 bnr??? If so and this is not a way old post let me know

 

I set my turbo up to Brian's specs, and had him rebuild and "mild street port" it.

Now I'm getting 310 rear wheel hp at 6 psi
and I'm getting 407 rear wheel hp at 14 psi,
(I've got more fine tuning left, so I'll be seeing more).

Click here to see my dyno charts:
http://home.earthlink.net/~rgibsonsprint1/CarDyno.htm

Ripping on Brian shows your lame.
R. Gibson
http://home.earthlink.net/~rgibsonsprint1/

 

man your car kicks ***! what kinda of car is that???

 

i belief this post is not whether what kind of power u can make with a good turbo setup but more like a hybrid potential with its cost and will it damage the engine...

thanks and nice car btw

 

Thank you for semi-ressurecting a thread that most of us wants to see just go away.
Thank you for not offering anything helpful to the content of the thread.
I guess it's safe that I can count you in the BDC groupies camp, right...


-Ted