FC_mania

there is no answer but money wise factor?

alright so everyone is suggesting if i have money to go haltech then keep the full T04 setup......if i dont i should sell the setup and go for a hybrid...

since a hybrid is not as bad as everyone thinks it is?

$150FC

You'd need the haltech to take advantage of a big hybrid, anyway.

Oh, and btw, the BNR Stage IV differs from that hybrid mentioned above. The exhaust housing is modified and a t04 exhaust wheel is used.

Victor

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

the one stated above has a modified exhaust housing and a t04 exhaust wheel is used.

$150FC

Oh, ****. Hah. I didn't see that one line. :P

FC_mania

so its good?

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Go with what you want, since you are already running a TO4 you may as well stick with it. It is funny though as there is some that can pull better times with a hybrid than some of those with a full TO4. Once again this is somtimes and probably shows ones tuning ability is probably better than anothers. I think some of the hybrids can get pretty close to to a TO4 in HP. Plus the seem to have less lag. THere is a lot of plus to the hybrid and only one real plus to the full TO4 and that being overall HP.

Bond

Word for word from a local turbo builder in my area " You cant put 10lbs of **** in a 5lb bag" Thats his feelings on hybrids, also the 2:1 ratio reted mentioned, if its that bad throw it away. Try 1:1 - 1:1.4 perfect anything more is too much. The closer you get to those numbers the better everything will be.

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Correction my wife can manage to put 10lbs of **** in 5lb bag everytime we go on a trip. Anyway I like the hybrids whats the differance between a hybrid pushing 350-400RWHP and a full TO4 pushing 350-400RWHP? The only thing I can think of is the lag differance. Ask your turbo builder about that. I would be interested in the awnswer. There are plenty of people on here running the hybrids with no problems.

Infini IV

^^ In response to usmcjsy.... I'm pretty sure more exhaust gas pressure between the engine and the turbo will place greater stress on the turbo bearings and seals. More stress means life expectancy of a hybrid will be reduced. The only way to help get rid of this extra exhaust pressure is to go with a bigger turbine wheel and/or clipping the wheel. Going with a bigger wheel and then clipping it will reduce turbo response time enough so that a full T4 will get better response.

SPOautos

You should probably stop using any turbo builder that tries to force **** thru his turbos.

Actually most turbo builders dont like to do hybrids, they involve MUCH more work than marking up/selling a new turbo or rebuilding a turbo. Hybrids require time to mill the housings, ect.

Stephen

RETed

Tell that to all the guys who are running T3/T4 hybrids on 13B's...


-Ted

usmcjsy

iTrader: (1)

Well hell Infini has succesfully made me change my mind, anyone wanna buy a BNR stage 3 Hybird? I am going with the full TO4 as I am sure that should shave at least a full second off what my hybrid can do. Plus I am sure the 360 thrust bearing in my hybrid also is in adequate for the high pressures we are dealing with here. What was I thinking a hybrid on a street car now I am inferior to all other street cars . Everyones running full TO4 setups except me.

RETed

Like I said before, the hybrid is a valid option if you're in a budget.

Yes, the full turbo upgrade will almost always be superior.

The problem is that costs associated with a full turbo upgrade is significantly more than a hybrid.

Full turbo upgrade:
$500 turbo
$300 HKS cast turbo exhaust manifold
$100 custom oil lines and / or custom coolant lines
$100 custom intake and downpipe (adapters)
$700 front-mount intercooler
That looks like a minimum $1,500 or so.

The hybrid doesn't have a lot of costs associated with the full turbo upgrade.
On a really tight budget, you can even use your stock top-mount intercooler if you wish (although it's really recommended to run a front-mount intercooler, especially over 10psi).

So we're looking at a price differential of an even grand minimum.
That's some serious cash there.


-Ted

FC_mania

yes thats the main point of this post... cost wise... if a hybrid is good enough , thats what im going for. i can use the extra cash for something else...

thanks RETed...

i wish i could always go with a full T04 , yes i have it right now but i bought it that way... and if i can sell it and get more cash for the setup and still can trade for a hybrid turbo... i rather go that way....

Bond

The point is the back pressure is to high on a hybrid. So itll work for awhile and you'll get the power you want, but at what cost. Possibly shortening your engines life, id rather see you save your money and do it right the first time. Your car, your call.

jreynish

iTrader: (2)

Man stop spouting **** out of your mouth.
I mean don't bring up alligations that you can't possibly prove with hard data. If desinged properly a Hyrbid will perform without any detremental effects on the engine. However with added power it shortens the life of an engine anyway's we all know this!
So please stop posting Bull ****.
There is no proof of such an alligation that you are suggesting that a Hyrbid will decrease engine life.
"End of Rant"

FC_mania

woah...yea i would like to see some hard facts......pls.... thanks a lot.... i just hope to see some evidence.....

i want to get opinion from all....

BDC

I've been in a pretty shoddy mood the last several days. Usually, I blow stuff like this off and let it go to the back of my mind, but since having had a fairly substantial "introspective" moment in my life about how I'm a bit too much of a pushover, I'm going to toss in my two cents and let you guys know exactly how I feel.

First, jreynish, you should be ashamed of yourself by posting a comment like what you just did. All this does is show what your character is really made of.

Secondly, Bond is absolutely right on the money. Even my own vast, personal experience backs this up. Bond's assertion reflects that of the general Australian rotary community -> not so big on the compressor but larger on the turbine housing. It's funny how those guys seem to do pretty well when most of us here in the US and Canada can't tune for squat, trying to shove gobs of boost with a cantelope-sized air compressor through a coffee-straw sized turbine housing, wondering why we can't make good power, and also wondering why we're blowing motors up left and right.

I don't care *what* kind of arguments or responses I get out of this because I am right about one particular thing (everyone reading this, please ingrain it in your minds):

The key to power on our rotary engines is velocity. The exhaust system (which is inclusive of the exhaust manifold & the turbine housing) *MUST* be able to pass the maximum of the air that the intake system is able to generate and move at its highest load point of operation.

You can cram boost, you can do nitrous, you can do all these goofy tricks, but if you don't have velocity, you have a semi-powerful setup that's also a time-bomb waiting to explode. I don't care what Mr. Ted Koseki says: If you have an exhaust side that is smaller than the compressor side, and can't move the *maximum* amount of gas the air compressor can pressurize and move, then it will reduce velocity, increase backpressure, and induce gobs of heat when the air compressor is moving more air past that maximum point on the turbine housing. I've seen this occur so many times I can't count them anymore. Our engines make truckloads of power when the exhaust system is 100% as competent at moving exhaust OUT as the intake system (compressor included). Our engines are architecturally designed to make power at high RPM's. The exhaust pulses out of our engines are also like punches from George Foreman on sterroids. By way of this, we need to use large exhaust housings; we need to have properly "balanced" turbochargers.

Hybrids are a bad idea. They are badly imbalanced, typically with the compressor being larger than the turbine housing. The problem with hybrids has to do more with the temperament of the driver: As with FCD's and "piggy backs" that Mr Koseki seems to think can be beneficial, a false sense of security is built within the driver as he (or she) thinks that the setup of the car is fine. Hey, it hasn't blown up yet, so it won't, right?" Keep turning up the boost, keep thinking it will be safe, and it will.

Avoid hybrids, avoid hack-jobs, and do it right the first time. Save and then spend your money so you can do it once.

Veilside, stick to the setup you have. You have no idea just how lucky you already have it and how much trouble you're saving yourself for later.

More posts and pictures to come on this subject.

B

Slammedblk7

iTrader: (7)

by all means for the people who really dont know any better, would probably go for the hybrid because its "cheaper". but if anyone is really on a budget, you shouldnt be in this game. Anyone that has any sense knows, modifying a car isn't cheap. If you dont have the money to do it right, save until you do. I mean I'm only 19(did this when i was 18) and I saved everything I could to do the set up right without any regrets, didnt jack with the stock ecu, and Im not the richest person in the world either. Now you would think that IF someone were to be on a budget it would be a 18 y/o kid. i did what people think is impossible...SAVE.

RETed

I'd like to see proof of this.
If this is the case, it should turn up as less boost, increase intake temps, blah blah blah.

I got to mess with a couple of "big" hybrid turbo'd FC's in Europe.
One was an H-trim and the other is a 60-1 - both are compressor upgrades.
Both were built by BNR.
If BDC is slamming hybrids, so he's basically calling Bryan of BNR's work CRAP???
I find Bryan of BNR's background pretty extensive in turbos.
I don't think BDC can even come close to BNR's experience in turbos.
BDC, to call hybrids crap and implying that BNR's work is worthless is sticking a load of crap in your mouth too...
Both cars are Haltech E6k'd.
Extensive tuning sessions don't show anything significantly abnormal.
Those hybrids work.

In fact, most hybrids work.
Hybrids have been proven.
I think engine longevity is relative in this case.
I think you should also apply if-you-can't-afford-it-get-out-of-the-game here also.
We're talking about performance.
Increase in performance is almost always going to decrese in engine life.
I can't believe you guys bring up engine longevity.
It's a moot point.

Like I said before, hybrids do have their place.
I totally agree with you when you say save you money.
In reality, not everyone thinks like that.
I think I've talking to thousands of FC owners asking about performance upgrades.
Most of them aren't too patient either.
Yes, a lot of them are "kids".
I do try to offer options that are tailored to fit their needs.

I have NEVER heard of someone killing their motor prematurely due to a hybrid.
I have NEVER heard of someone killing their motor due to a "missized" hybrid.



-Ted

Bond

BDC, thanks for the support its nice to know someone understands turbos. Reted, you dont even half to bolt these setups on your car to realize there all wrong in every way. Its takin me 6 months to find the right turbo setup, I originally had a T72 with p trim turbine wheel, at 28 lbs of boost it cranked out 52 lbs of backpressure, thats worthless. Little did i know that should have been thrown in the trash. Bye about 6 different turbo of various sizes mount a backpressure gauge and see what you come up with. I used to lean heavily on compressor maps as well, but what good is it if i cant get the **** out. Every turbo builder knows about wheel ratios and how far you can go, but when people throw money at them theyll build anything.

mike

RETed

You know what, don't tell me I'm wrong.
Hybrids are proven.
Knightsports in Japan uses them; so do many other rotary shops in Japan offer them for sale.
Go argue with Maxthe7man about how well Japan shop reputations are...

You don't seem to get the point.
I didn't claim hybrids are the end-all, top efficiency option when it comes to turbo upgrades.
Get that notion out of your head.
I said THE HYBRID IS A VALID OPTION WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO LIMITED BUDGETS.
Please don't start ranting about save-your-money-and-buy-the-best crap.
I don't see all us running Garrett GT-series BB turbos with custom stainless steel tube turbo exhaust manifolds with MoTeC stand-alones.
I'm sure you don't run this set-up + a set of JRZ's or Moton's on your car...

BDC can do what he wants.
He has his supporters.
You have made it clear you're one of his followers.
So don't tell me I'm wrong cause BDC says so.
That's just plain stupid.

Don't be ragging hybrid owners just because you think down on them.
You're probably one of those stuck-up SOB's that look down on the pooh folk cause you make more money than then of have a nicer car.


-Ted

BDC

I *am* saying that about Brian's work? You know, I'm not going to even bother getting distracted and falling for your tactic of facts twisting and distortion by defending myself against such a ludricous claim.

In short Ted, put in a sock in it. I'm not tolerating your 4-year old emotional tantrums anymore. You have so little real-world, practical experience to back up the things you assert. You have hardly any pictures of your work. You've got next to zero dyno graphs out there. You have hardly *any* customers that will go to bat for you to defend you and praise your first-hand extensive tuning knowledge. In short, you're a guy who likes to be irrationally critical of others that are succeeding as you try and pick them apart with your pseudo book-knowledge experience.

Don't dodge. Don't hem-haw. Show us your figures and your great success to prove what you've been spouting off this whole time.

I, on the other hand, do have some pictures, dynos, videos, graphs, and happy customers. My experience proves that hybrids don't work anywhere near as well as a well-balanced turbo; full T4+ turbo setups with LARGE exhaust housings are the secret to high, reliable power:

-------------

http://2stroke.cyberosity.com/dallasvdo/vts_01_49.avi

447rwhp at 15psi of boost along with two manifold gasket leaks and conservative ignition timing. 88 Series 4 T2 block, half-bridgeported with comparatively small exhaust ports, T66 turbocharger w/ a P-Trim 0.96 A/R backside. 575 miles on the motor at the time of dyno.

Large exhaust housing is the key.

--------------

http://bdc.genxracing.com/bdc_033000_3_SAE.jpg
Not one... but two runs graphed and scanned.
http://bdc.genxracing.com/bdc_033000_2_SAE.jpg

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/videos/BrianDCain/BDC4.avi
Drove there, ran, drove home.

417 to 425rwhp at 15psi of boost, 93 octane pump gas, Turbonetics 60-1 HIFI w/ small shaft and dry bearing housing, and a P-Trim 0.96 A/R uncollected turbine housing. 319.5rwhp and 240ft/lbs torque at 7.5psi of boost (Stock ECU to boot!)

Made about 6 runs that day tuning on the high-end, back-to-back, over and over. Smaller compressor, larger turbine. Horsepower curve still rising past 7,600 RPM. Not-so-special street port with small exhaust ports. Series 4 block w/ 3mm apex seals. Done four years and seven months ago. Sorry you hate the graphs so much, Ted, but they're true.

Never tuned on race gas.

Here's a picture of my "huge" turbo:

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/pictures/B...60-1Before.Jpg
http://bdc.cyberosity.com/pictures/B.../60-1After.Jpg

Has there *ever* been a turbocharger of those specs, with that smaller size of a compressor, that's come even close to the power figures above since in the last four years?

Large exhaust housing is the key.

---------

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/pictures/T...2/DSC01574.JPG

"Laughable Bridgeports?"

22psi of boost on 112 leaded race fuel, moderate ignition timing. Two weeks later, 499rwhp and 399.7ft/lbs of torque at the same boost,
Small half-bridgeport; smaller than the ones I do now for customers. Mazda 3pc 2mm apex seals. Series 5 block w/ S5 T2 rotors. Schwitzer S300 turbo w/ a John Deere S300S008 centre housing with 0.83 A/R turbine housing. Exducer is 15% wider in diameter than a P-Trim. Haltech E6K. Stock ignition. Small exhaust ports.

Large exhaust housing is the key.

----------

http://bdc.cyberosity.com/pictures/A...p/P1010199.JPG
http://home.earthlink.net/~rgibsonsprint1/Dyno1.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~ricgibson/

Ric Gibson's early 1970's Triumph Spitfire. Pictured in Reader's Rides in this month's issue of Grassroots Motorsports Magazine. My streeport, on a series 4 block w/ 8.5:1 rotors, Turbonetics full 60-1 big-shaft w/ 0.84 A/R P-Trim divided turbine housing. 407rwhp at 13psi of boost. Small exhaust ports.

Large exhaust housing is the key.

----------

Don't use hybrids, guys. Save your money and build the system right from the get-go. There's so much power to be made here it's not even funny.

B

BDC

How completely and utterly stupid to say such a thing. How on Earth do you keep (much less get) your customers?

B

Slammedblk7

iTrader: (7)

HEY buddy !!1 I'm NEVER wrong.

-Ted