500RWHP FD RX7 on PUMP gas...
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 6
From: Grand Prairie, TX
:BSmeter:
/smack Hmmmm, I am not sure my BS Meter is workin'. Can you try it, Mike?
B
Front Range Express
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
Why bother modifying ANY vehicle if you're worried about blowing it up?
I guess we're all wasting our time throwing all this cash "just to prove a point"...
Sure, supplemental injection adds a safety margin, so I guess it all comes down to how big your ***** are...?
I remember people who used to bitch about me whining about what can and cannot be done...
Funny how it sounds with the shoe on the other foot.
-Ted
I guess we're all wasting our time throwing all this cash "just to prove a point"...
Sure, supplemental injection adds a safety margin, so I guess it all comes down to how big your ***** are...?
I remember people who used to bitch about me whining about what can and cannot be done...
Funny how it sounds with the shoe on the other foot.
-Ted
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,541
Likes: 0
From: Abingdon, Md
Lives on the Forum
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,664
Likes: 22
From: n
He was talking to a fella who wants to build his first rotary, not his fourth. HE never bitched or whined about anything! He didn't imply anything to anyone other than the OP. This thread isn't about you, Ted!. I think there is a lot of wisdom in his council to the OP. All he was saying was that you can't depend on always getting exactly what you pay for at the pump, and at the 500hp level, your motor is going to grenade with the first bad tank of gas you put in it. I never thought of people who play Russian Roulette as people with big *****, anyhow.
I guess paying someone competent to take care of it isn't an option?
We all gotta blow at least 3 motor before even thinking of trying something "risky"?
-Ted
'Tuna'
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 3
From: Miami,Fl,USA
Front Range Express
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
Motor cares only that it gets a good tank of gas, and does not give 3 ***** if RETed built it.
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 6
From: Grand Prairie, TX
C'mon Chris, tell us the details of your old 500rwhp on pump gas setup from back in the day. 
6 pages and still no evidence from anyone on their claims. Yet another typical "everyone talks a big game but shows no substance" thread. Gotta love the Interweb!
B
6 pages and still no evidence from anyone on their claims. Yet another typical "everyone talks a big game but shows no substance" thread. Gotta love the Interweb!
B
'Tuna'
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 3
From: Miami,Fl,USA
Water, oil and air temps are most important.
That setup you mentioned above was a secondary bridge ported T2 motor with 8.5 rotors at 20psi made just over 510hp on 93 octane blowing through a Holley carb. Believe it or not it ran at 22psi most of the times with 93 octane without any problems. The way the carb atomised the fuel had a lot to do with it as most of the present day tuners have found the same to be true with piston motors also. They can run a lot more boost with the carb vs efi setups on pump gas. The sudden drop in pressure through the carb resulted in a major drop in charge temp also. This setup can be duplicated to an extent with efi by placing the injectors further away from the motor. Also the type on intake manifold/throttelbody design plays an important role. Some of the 4bbl TB EFI setups come very close. That was one of the major reasons why I never ran the factory intake for a long time. The performance level with the reliability was just not there especially back then when race gas was something you only heard about at the race tracks.
You also learn a lot of these things the hard way before most of you knew what a turbocharged rotary was like some of the early suck through setups that used no intercooler. Detonation was very willing to say hello back then. I cracked my first rear iron in the late 80's early 90's to be exact. It's all about heat control management. It's the same results you try to achieved by using AI.
How many in here actually spend the extra time to remove the excess heat that's not needed. For example plugging the egr holes in the rotor housing so the heat don't travel up the side housing to the intake manifold? You'll be surprise how all these little things adds up to making efficent power with reliability.
It's all about trial and error. Horsepower does not come cheap but some of it is availble free and in the end it all adds up.
All I can say keep trying along these guidlines and you will discover a lot more along the way.
Happy Now!
i ran 16psi daily on my first turbo 12a setup using a blow thru carb i built.. occasionally creeping to 20psi. the kicker?? no intercooler of any sort and definitely no AI.
crispeed is 100% dead on.
i like cheese!!!
crispeed is 100% dead on.
i like cheese!!!
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 6
From: Grand Prairie, TX
It's all about keeping cool.
Water, oil and air temps are most important.
That setup you mentioned above was a secondary bridge ported T2 motor with 8.5 rotors at 20psi made just over 510hp on 93 octane blowing through a Holley carb. Believe it or not it ran at 22psi most of the times with 93 octane without any problems. The way the carb atomised the fuel had a lot to do with it as most of the present day tuners have found the same to be true with piston motors also. They can run a lot more boost with the carb vs efi setups on pump gas. The sudden drop in pressure through the carb resulted in a major drop in charge temp also. This setup can be duplicated to an extent with efi by placing the injectors further away from the motor. Also the type on intake manifold/throttelbody design plays an important role. Some of the 4bbl TB EFI setups come very close. That was one of the major reasons why I never ran the factory intake for a long time. The performance level with the reliability was just not there especially back then when race gas was something you only heard about at the race tracks. You also learn a lot of these things the hard way before most of you knew what a turbocharged rotary was like some of the early suck through setups that used no intercooler. Detonation was very willing to say hello back then. I cracked my first rear iron in the late 80's early 90's to be exact.
It's all about heat control management. It's the same results you try to achieved by using AI.
How many in here actually spend the extra time to remove the excess heat that's not needed. For example plugging the egr holes in the rotor housing so the heat don't travel up the side housing to the intake manifold? You'll be surprise how all these little things adds up to making efficent power with reliability.
It's all about trial and error. Horsepower does not come cheap but some of it is availble free and in the end it all adds up.
All I can say keep trying along these guidlines and you will discover a lot more along the way.
Happy Now!
Water, oil and air temps are most important.
That setup you mentioned above was a secondary bridge ported T2 motor with 8.5 rotors at 20psi made just over 510hp on 93 octane blowing through a Holley carb. Believe it or not it ran at 22psi most of the times with 93 octane without any problems. The way the carb atomised the fuel had a lot to do with it as most of the present day tuners have found the same to be true with piston motors also. They can run a lot more boost with the carb vs efi setups on pump gas. The sudden drop in pressure through the carb resulted in a major drop in charge temp also. This setup can be duplicated to an extent with efi by placing the injectors further away from the motor. Also the type on intake manifold/throttelbody design plays an important role. Some of the 4bbl TB EFI setups come very close. That was one of the major reasons why I never ran the factory intake for a long time. The performance level with the reliability was just not there especially back then when race gas was something you only heard about at the race tracks.
You also learn a lot of these things the hard way before most of you knew what a turbocharged rotary was like some of the early suck through setups that used no intercooler. Detonation was very willing to say hello back then. I cracked my first rear iron in the late 80's early 90's to be exact. It's all about heat control management. It's the same results you try to achieved by using AI.
How many in here actually spend the extra time to remove the excess heat that's not needed. For example plugging the egr holes in the rotor housing so the heat don't travel up the side housing to the intake manifold? You'll be surprise how all these little things adds up to making efficent power with reliability.
It's all about trial and error. Horsepower does not come cheap but some of it is availble free and in the end it all adds up.
All I can say keep trying along these guidlines and you will discover a lot more along the way.
Happy Now!
On my own car, in '98, a buddy heavily pushed the idea of using air-to-water intercooling on my setup. I ran it from late 98 to mid 2000 when the core started to leak. It was a stock top-mounted core converted and jacketted to run water. Was real goofy looking the first couple iterations of it but it worked remarkably well. I used to measure the water temps -- high 30's to low 40's after a 10lb bag of ice was allowed to circulate for a few minutes from the tank on. Manifolds and throttle body were much colder after runs. The intercooler would frost over enough to where someone could write their name on it. I beat the hell out of the car at the 1/8mi track during early 2000 and ran some good times w/ the little ol' 60-1HIFI it had (7.60's and 7.70's at 96-97mph) and never once missed a beat. I ran 17psi of boost while banging off the 8200rpm rev limiter. Motor never got hot and ran great.
That same friend also hammered on to me the same heat thing you've mentioned and it's stuck with me:
- Drop oil temps any way possible
- Keep water temps down
- Heat blanket the turbine housing
- Heat insulate the exhaust piping
- Ceramic coat the intake manifolds
- Block the water outlets off the rotor housings to the lower intake manifold
- Remove the water line running to the throttle body
- Get the air filter outside of the engine bay
- Eventual use of alcohol
... as examples. The local pros back then had no idea how I made so much power without ever breaking the thing and some tried to tell me it wasn't possible when I told them the hardware I was using. So, when you brought up heat rejection stuff, that's what I was hoping you'd answer with because I agree with you 100%. I don't know if the fuel blends have changed any from your earlier time, to my earlier time, to the present that would present a problem now with trying to achieve that goal (my gut says they have and it'd be related to EPA mandates; someone smarter than me can either corroborate that or correct me on it), but the way you took it is the right way I think.
B
'Tuna'
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 4,637
Likes: 3
From: Miami,Fl,USA
I'm definitely happy with you, Chris, and I absolutely believe you without question. Been waiting for you to take the hook for a couple days now that I've been tossing out. I haven't gone as far as you have, but I've pursued the same sort of thing. 5 years ago I took some rotor housings to Don Marvel to have him change the sleeves (I didn't know how to do the roll pins) and I told him to weld up the hole in the sleeves for the same reason you'd mentioned. He said it had little effect but I told him to do it anyways. I have a picture of them here somewhere of the finished work that I'll attach. It's from Oct 2002.
On my own car, in '98, a buddy heavily pushed the idea of using air-to-water intercooling on my setup. I ran it from late 98 to mid 2000 when the core started to leak. It was a stock top-mounted core converted and jacketted to run water. Was real goofy looking the first couple iterations of it but it worked remarkably well. I used to measure the water temps -- high 30's to low 40's after a 10lb bag of ice was allowed to circulate for a few minutes from the tank on. Manifolds and throttle body were much colder after runs. The intercooler would frost over enough to where someone could write their name on it. I beat the hell out of the car at the 1/8mi track during early 2000 and ran some good times w/ the little ol' 60-1HIFI it had (7.60's and 7.70's at 96-97mph) and never once missed a beat. I ran 17psi of boost while banging off the 8200rpm rev limiter. Motor never got hot and ran great.
That same friend also hammered on to me the same heat thing you've mentioned and it's stuck with me:
- Drop oil temps any way possible
- Keep water temps down
- Heat blanket the turbine housing
- Heat insulate the exhaust piping
- Ceramic coat the intake manifolds
- Block the water outlets off the rotor housings to the lower intake manifold
- Remove the water line running to the throttle body
- Get the air filter outside of the engine bay
- Eventual use of alcohol
... as examples. The local pros back then had no idea how I made so much power without ever breaking the thing and some tried to tell me it wasn't possible when I told them the hardware I was using. So, when you brought up heat rejection stuff, that's what I was hoping you'd answer with because I agree with you 100%. I don't know if the fuel blends have changed any from your earlier time, to my earlier time, to the present that would present a problem now with trying to achieve that goal (my gut says they have and it'd be related to EPA mandates; someone smarter than me can either corroborate that or correct me on it), but the way you took it is the right way I think.
B
On my own car, in '98, a buddy heavily pushed the idea of using air-to-water intercooling on my setup. I ran it from late 98 to mid 2000 when the core started to leak. It was a stock top-mounted core converted and jacketted to run water. Was real goofy looking the first couple iterations of it but it worked remarkably well. I used to measure the water temps -- high 30's to low 40's after a 10lb bag of ice was allowed to circulate for a few minutes from the tank on. Manifolds and throttle body were much colder after runs. The intercooler would frost over enough to where someone could write their name on it. I beat the hell out of the car at the 1/8mi track during early 2000 and ran some good times w/ the little ol' 60-1HIFI it had (7.60's and 7.70's at 96-97mph) and never once missed a beat. I ran 17psi of boost while banging off the 8200rpm rev limiter. Motor never got hot and ran great.
That same friend also hammered on to me the same heat thing you've mentioned and it's stuck with me:
- Drop oil temps any way possible
- Keep water temps down
- Heat blanket the turbine housing
- Heat insulate the exhaust piping
- Ceramic coat the intake manifolds
- Block the water outlets off the rotor housings to the lower intake manifold
- Remove the water line running to the throttle body
- Get the air filter outside of the engine bay
- Eventual use of alcohol
... as examples. The local pros back then had no idea how I made so much power without ever breaking the thing and some tried to tell me it wasn't possible when I told them the hardware I was using. So, when you brought up heat rejection stuff, that's what I was hoping you'd answer with because I agree with you 100%. I don't know if the fuel blends have changed any from your earlier time, to my earlier time, to the present that would present a problem now with trying to achieve that goal (my gut says they have and it'd be related to EPA mandates; someone smarter than me can either corroborate that or correct me on it), but the way you took it is the right way I think.
B
You either have to plug the hole below in the housing or at the side.
Tip of the iceberg!
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 6
From: Grand Prairie, TX
Will work for horsepower
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,865
Likes: 1
From: Springfield, MO
I dont think ive ever seen a post that long by cris! You guy are making me feel better about some of the mods i did on my fd in reguard to cooling. The post were someone said heat is the killer of the rotary made me do everything i could think of to keep it cool and i can see big diffrences in this setup compared to the old motor. When i first ran the car at the track and was 180 degrees at the launch and 170 degrees at the turn road it made me feel good about the setup. Good info thanks.
I will be MORE than happy to give full details, porting specs, turbo specs, manifolds, ECU, etc... when it is all said and done. And if it doesn't make the power I am boasting, then I'll gladly admit it and upload some pics of socks in my mouth... haha.
But as mentioned before... after spending all the money on a system, why risk it on pump... therefore AI will be in my system and I'll be running 20 psi.
BDC Motorsports
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 6
From: Grand Prairie, TX
Car will be done and tuned sometime in March/April. I'll give you 500+ at 15psi on a GT40r, with a street ported, non-bridged engine on pump or I'll eat my socks =)
I will be MORE than happy to give full details, porting specs, turbo specs, manifolds, ECU, etc... when it is all said and done. And if it doesn't make the power I am boasting, then I'll gladly admit it and upload some pics of socks in my mouth... haha.
But as mentioned before... after spending all the money on a system, why risk it on pump... therefore AI will be in my system and I'll be running 20 psi.
I will be MORE than happy to give full details, porting specs, turbo specs, manifolds, ECU, etc... when it is all said and done. And if it doesn't make the power I am boasting, then I'll gladly admit it and upload some pics of socks in my mouth... haha.
But as mentioned before... after spending all the money on a system, why risk it on pump... therefore AI will be in my system and I'll be running 20 psi.
Good luck with the car!
B
Front Range Express
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Colorado Springs
What are the turbo specs? Is this the gt40 with the larger 94mm exducer comp wheel?
I think there's domething dhahlen isn't telling us
