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mounting bilsteins on a first gen?

Old 09-12-05, 10:03 PM
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mounting bilsteins on a first gen?

I searched the FB forums and didn't find it, but what needs to be done to the strut housing to mount a Bilstein insert?

ISC charges 65 per housing to "modify" them; what are they doing for that price? and more importantly, can I do it instead?

thanks!
Marcus
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Old 09-13-05, 10:44 PM
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Someone has to know this.... how about Koni's?
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Old 09-13-05, 11:07 PM
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What struts are you running now? I assume coil-overs. You have to weld the lower perch on and convert you strut housings into coil overs?

I am just guessing here, but I assume the konis/bilsteins race struts use a larger diameter body. (I run a 2nd gen and have the mazdamotorsports/awr housings). So you have to run a wider strut housing, have the coilover setup, and weld it to the stock spindle.

Check out this link to G-force/Advance Design housings. Probably similar to what you need to do....

http://gforceengineering.net/advance_shocks.htm

Of course, maybe I don't have a clue to what I am saying!?!?!? I see there is a big price difference between ISC and G-force!

-Jack
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Old 09-13-05, 11:11 PM
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I think there is something about this on Jim Susko's G-force page.
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Old 09-13-05, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NasaPro7
Iinsert?

ISC charges 65 per housing to "modify" them; what are they doing for that price? and more importantly, can I do it instead?
Sounds pretty reasonable to me, price wise. I know several top EP guys run/ran that ISC/Bilstien setup.

The Koni's (single adjustable)work but you have to manufacurer a spacer. The Koni racing shock (double adjustable) is a problem because the compression adjustment is in the bottom of the shock, and also needs the spacer. The Advance shocks on the other hand fit perfectly in the G-Force modified tubes, and both adjustment are on top. Of course these are $$$ and currently on backorder. The G-Force tubes also require SE brakes.

Bang for the buck the ISC wins. The best setup IMO is the G-Force/Advance shocks with KC Raceware front brakes. $$$$$ You gotta pay to play
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Old 09-14-05, 12:32 AM
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That's what I was looking for
I currently run tok-crappo's...
I guess a call to Mike is in order...
AD wins for pimpy factor except for the price, and if they require SE brakes they aren't IT legal.
Marcus, only grumbling since he is about to buy four...
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Old 09-16-05, 03:44 PM
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What's wrong with the Tokico Illumina Race shock for 1st gen?
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Old 09-17-05, 03:53 AM
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Based on the junk floating around in the bottom of mine, as well as the wobbly shaft, I'd say, not strong renough.
They are a good entry level race shock ,but compared to a properly setup Bilstein or Koni? not likely.

Last edited by NasaPro7; 09-17-05 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 09-18-05, 03:45 PM
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Old 09-18-05, 03:59 PM
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Thanks! (I'm guessing you missed the reference to ISC in my opening post?)

Marcus, who still hasn't called Mike...
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Old 09-18-05, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by NasaPro7
Thanks! (I'm guessing you missed the reference to ISC in my opening post?)

Marcus, who still hasn't called Mike...
yup. I run their bilstein setup on my 2nd gen. Only thing I have to complain about is the shitty paint job they did on the modified struts. Not big deal, I just repainted them myself.
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Old 09-20-05, 06:11 PM
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got it. that must be why a lot of guys are switching from tokico in the front to koni.
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Old 09-20-05, 09:39 PM
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I would venture to say that's a good guess, as well as the other advantages Koni provides (out of the box ability to handle a spring rate higher than 350 reliably, ability to revalve, etc.)
I don't mean to completely slam tokico's (well, yes I do ), they are still the spec shock for my pro7 car. For nearly the same amount, I'd just rather a bilstein or Koni.

Marcus
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Old 09-20-05, 09:46 PM
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I should mention the ISC mods:
Shorten and tig weld an adapter to the stock strut housing, and install a spring seat.

Marcus
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Old 09-25-05, 04:11 PM
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Pix and measurements would be helpful.
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Old 09-25-05, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DriveFast7
What's wrong with the Tokico Illumina Race shock for 1st gen?
They are not strong enough for race duty with spring rates over 350 lbs. or so. My experience was that they would go away after 8 or 9 laps.
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Old 09-25-05, 08:00 PM
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The car I bought / am building currently has the ISC Bilsteins on it, but I am most likely going to switch to the Advance Design shocks...assuming they are available.
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Old 09-25-05, 09:09 PM
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I looked long and hard at them, I just couldn't justify 800 a corner (Susko's prices for the inserts and housing's on his website.) for an IT car. IIRC you are building a prod car, right?

Marcus
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Old 09-26-05, 04:33 PM
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Yes, building a prod car.

The other alternative is that if you can find a pair of the old yellow Koni Sport inserts for the front, they can be revalved for higher spring rates and made externally adjustable. This is per and email I have from Koni, but I want to talk to a live person before I pursue this.

I have two pair of these I purchased off of eBay for a mere $50 / pair, and assuming that the revalve from Koni isn't too expensive I may experiment first with those before going the AD route.

The other advantage to the Susko modified struts is that you can use the IMSA style ducting for the front brakes which is pretty nice.

Rich
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Old 09-28-05, 12:00 AM
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Tocrappos..
I have them in my ITA 1st gen. They are really nice on the street.. and for autocrosses.
Dial up the firmness real nice.. very easily able to adjust the shocks to get the best bite for the different autocross tracks.

Notice that was all autocross??

Enter Road Racing... <BUZZER>
Nope. DOnt work well at all after a few laps.

Now... When doing a drivers school... or some track events.. you will nto be pushing hard enough to reach the limits.. at first. Unless you are 10/10ths the whole time.. or over driving the car alll the time.

But.. on the end of weekend "Race" at a drivers school.. or as mentioned above.. after 4-5 laps at Sebring short course, or Daytona.... You will notice the car starts to dive further.. and porpoise a bit over the ripples and dips.... and will start getting a LOT closer to bottoming over the bumps. Where it was perfect for the first 4 or so laps... Handles like a dream... Tires are good.. corners awesome.. Life is grand.. Put it where you want.. Then it begins to wallow a tad.. and then it gets progressively worse.
Be the end of the race.. you have to modify your lines to avoid the largest pavement moguls so you dont bottom the suspension.
Yep Tires are still there.. but the car is getting WAYY too much travel.. Like driving a old 1st gen with worn out stock shocks.
Let it cool between sessions.. and they are back.

I did the whole antifreeze thing as well around the shocks.. They just are not up to the task.

I understand that the Koni's from the ITS setup.. are not up to EP work as well... they go away like the Tocrapkos do in a similar timeframe.
I will be going with a remote resivoir when I re-start on the EP project.
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Old 09-28-05, 04:31 PM
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***Crazy idea*** What if you use an small oil cooler and electric pump for the antifreeze in the shock housings?
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Old 09-29-05, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by web777
***Crazy idea*** What if you use an small oil cooler and electric pump for the antifreeze in the shock housings?

Why beat a dead horse?
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Old 09-29-05, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by web777
***Crazy idea*** What if you use an small oil cooler and electric pump for the antifreeze in the shock housings?
Well.... IIRC it is like 2 ounces of antifreeze or something similar. It is a REALLY small amount. Good thought.. but not enough anti-freeze to make it work.

I believe.. correct me if im wrong... the antifreeze is simply there to conduct heat from the shock insert to the body. Not to actually cool it.. but to conduct the heat semi efficiently.. without rust.
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Old 10-01-05, 07:48 AM
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My observation with racing and mods is that the faster you go, the fewer compromises you can make. For example, a shock that is good for autocross (ex: Tokico) is OK for track days, marginal for IT racing, and totally inadequate for Prod, etc. Take any component on the car and apply the same logic.

The old adage applies, "Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?"

However, I am a cheapskate at heart. The antifreeze as a shock coolant idea is creative...keep them coming...we might stumble on something and be able to sell it to fund our racing endeavors!
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Old 10-02-05, 07:02 PM
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totally agreed.
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