DarkLikePoe

V8 owners, go easy! For each wrong statement a rotary guy makes, you're making one as well! Engine choice is about CHOICE, not what's BEST. "BEST" is a relative term, and no amount of argumentation changes that!

Why don't Ferrari owners swap in LS6s? There's a lot more to the argument than "fact." Ask a "real" car guy, not a mechanic or an engineer, and there's a LOT more involved.

Snyper

Since your being technical and wanna use percentages(for what? who knows) You must be forgetting the LS9 that sits at 620hp. So since thats the case that 165% goes up to 203%......203%>189%. Im not trying to start a fight I just want to make sure the CORRECT facts are out there.

Snyper

You are a true internet ricer. Either that or you can't read. This subject has been beat to death and PROVEN time and time again. Wheres your justification, tech, or benifits of keeping a rotary other than trying to stay "true" to the rotary infection. Like I said earlier, I can show you a **** load of cases where someone went from rotary to LS1, please show me where someone went from LS1 to rotary. Im sure if the swap was as bad as you perceive it to be then at least one of them woulda went back. Honestly, thats like me looking at a new flavor of icecream(without tasting it) and saying WOW THAT TASTES LIKE ****....how the hell would I know without actually tasting it? Just like you, have you ever owned, built, or driven an LS1 FB,FC,or FD? Until you do stay out of the other engine conversion sections. You might be better off in the sound system/appearance section....or HondaTech.

Snyper

Because they have reliable engines. ANd your speaking to a "real" car guy. Im 24 and ive owned just about every kind of performance car. 3 LT1 trans ams, a 94 single turbo supra,2004 cobra mustang, and my old pile of **** 13b rx7 which is now an LS6...let me give a little more detail

1993 LT1 TA-stock motor lots of nitrous-blown motor
1993 LT1 TA-stock motor/supercharger-high miles
1996 LT1 TA-22k orig. miles-head cam swap, then 383, then single turbo 355-lots of fun too much work though.
1994 supra-44k miles twin turbo, then single 67mm turbo on 18psi.It was alot of fun until I found out about the LSx RX7 and the power to weight benifits it has. Sold that and parted out the trans am for my 93.
1993 R1-55k-6 motors in car throughout its life. I bought it with the inention of putting the LS6 in it. Motor blew first weekend I had it.(factory rebuilt all stock, no mods)motor went in dumpter.



So theres my timeline on cars....please share with me yours, because judging by the way you talk, this is yourfirst performance car and your sharing opinions not facts.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

Perceived?

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/wont-start-i-searched-728940/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/engine-blew-idle-hks-twin-power-malfunction-728024/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/car-vibrations-exhaust-smell-problem-727543/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/coolant-light-w-alarm-noobie-need-help-729038/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/boost-spiking-help-729071/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/pineapple-racing-rebuild-729026/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/clutch-related-issue-help-719086/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/oil-issue-728894/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/broke-something-immediately-before-super-bowl-727292/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/engine-gone-knocking-728967/

And that's just from the first page of the 3rd gen section. Want me to dig deeper? Or in the 1st or 2nd gen sections?

So, you say it is not used in all Mazdas because of Emissions, Economy, & Serviceability; and we all know about the Reliability. So, what's so great about it again? If it has issues in emissions, economy and serviceability, why would consumer view it as a wise spending decision?

False, don't misquote me. 13Bs are not in the OPs choices. 13BTs are. That's what I'm talking about. I never mentioned anything about the 13B


I'm not talking about R&D of production LS motors, I'm talking about R&D of piston motors. If you want to get specific, we can talk about the Chevy small block which has been in production, in one form or another since 1955. Yes, there have been tons of changes since then, but that is meaningless to me. I hope they keep changing it because most of the time, when they do, they make it better.

So, you're comparing a NA motor to a FI motor and saying that it has a 189% gain in hp? Then you compare an NA motor to an NA motor and say it's only got 165%, and that's worse? How bout apples to apples. Again, me and the OP are only talking about 13BTs so, using your facts, the 13BT appeared in 86 @186hp and ended w/ 276hp. My math says 146% increase. Not so impressive when you do an honest comparision, is it?

I'M NOT PICKING ON THE 13BT!! I NEVER SAID A BAD WORD ABOUT THE 13BT. THE OP WANTED OPINIONS ABOUT ENGINE SWAPS. IF YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE WITH SWAPS, PLEASE RECONSIDER POSTING.

I've never seen a stock LS motor have piston slap problems, and I've delt with alot. And I've never said anything bad about the 13BT. Just because I'm not a "Pioneering" guy, doesn't mean I'm here bashing the 13BT. If that's what he wants, I'm not going to tell him otherwise. Are you?

Pioneers. That's funny. What have you done to advance the R&D of the rotary?

Unseen24-7

If you are all about power, torque, and not having reliability issues, then I totally agree that an LS swap is the obvious choice. The problem I have with V8 swaps is that they are un-imaginative/not creative, run-of-the-mill, but mainly...BORING!!!!!!!!

I understand that a lot of people don't care what's under the hood as long as it goes fast and doesn't break down. I personally don't want something under my hood that 1000 other people have too...the SAME engine....pulled from the SAME cars (camaro/firebird/corvette), from the SAME generations...exactly how does that make you stand out? I want a engine that ever time I look under the hood I go "WOW, that is cool!!" The LS swaps do not do this.

But there could be some really cool piston engine swaps like a Ferrai or BMW V12, Ferrari Flat 12, Ferrari V8, Porsche flat 6, Supra or Skyline I-6. Now I know everybody is going to say how hard it would be to find said engines and how hard it would be to install them, but think about it for a second...a FERARRI V12 in a 3rd gen RX7!!! It definately could be done with enough time and money, and would look alot cooler under the hood...oh and like no one else would have one.

On the other hand, one day I would love to put a 20B in a Shelby Cobra (kit car of course), I can imagine that there would be a few people pissed off about that, saying that I have destroyed an American icon and so-on and so-forth.

DarkLikePoe

Typical.

Snyper, I wasn't aware that the LS9 was yet in road-going production. You're right, I forgot.

Honestly, don't go tricking yourself into thinking that owning three Trans-Ams, a Supra, a 'Stang, and a LS swapped FD mean you've owned "just about every kind of performance car." Sounds to me like you've owned ONE kind of car. Hell, I'll not even get into the e-thugging about my experiences with cars, but if it means anything, I've owned the FD, an S13, an NA Miata, an 86 FC, a 77 Datsun 280Z, and, for ***** and giggles, a Camry and a 86 Nissan pickup. I'm also 24. Whatever. Draw your own conclusions.

I will reiterate, however, that I don't believe that being a "real" car guy just means buying/owning/tuning cars with huge engines with known power potential. For me, and I'm sure for others, there's a great deal more to it. I won't bother trying to elucidate these concepts to you, since you seem like the average hamfisted straightline driver - albeit a well-spoken one.

Eat-Pez, did you even read those posts? Most of them turn out to be non-engine issues! The only reason people always jump to the "I'm boned, time for rebuild" conclusion is that the engine is PERCEIVED to be that unreliable!!! With proper care and a good mechanic, the rotary lasts just as long as you would want it to. It just doesn't help that the ONLY cars it ever went into are the kinds of cars people like to drive like they're stolen.

You demonstrate exactly the problem I have with people who HAVE TO BE RIGHT. But you make some good points, and I'm offering a differing opinion based on what I'm reading. I apologize if you couldn't see me trying to simply suggest that there's another way to look at "fact." But you "win."

Frankly, there is nothing I would say to change your opinion. I'm sure your car is well sorted and very, very fast. In the real world, I'd probably pick your brain about it over a burger or something. I don't know.

My point was that people shouldn't write off engines on other people's word, and I think we agree on that. I bought the FD FOR the rotary, so don't **** on my opinion because I haven't swapped it out. I have the resources and the taste to own this car and tune it the way I want. I did the research and made a decision based on it. Instead of swapping out the engine for something someone else discovered is going to work, I chose to work out the issues the car has and strike a balance in my tune. From the way you talk about cars and performance, that's pretty ******' pioneering.

So chill out... my opinion counts and should be heard just the same. Like I said, no one's got a lock on the truth, and I think we've all gone about proving that "fact" is just a matter of interpretation.

EDIT: And if you think Ferrari builds reliable engines, ask a Ferrari owner. Ferrari builds race engines and puts them on the streets - and for RACE-BUILT engines, they're VERY reliable. But I bet a Camaro would outlast ANY of them.

DarkLikePoe

You know, I think I should clarify my purpose in coming up with those figures about LSx (not to be confused with the LSX) and 13B development: I excluded the LS9 because I haven't seen one running on the road, and I included NA and FI in the discussion because the addition of FI is a factory improvement. Just as GM made internal changes to the LS for the supercharger on the LS9, so did Mazda make changes for the twin turbos on the 13B-REW. MY POINT WAS that both engines are STILL under development. I think people get the wrong idea about the rotary - thinking that just because it's in so few cars it has experienced stagnant development.

Snyper

Your right..its exciting having a factory motor that will break down every other week. I definately see where your coming from when you say putting an 8 cylinder engine in a car that came with the eqivalent of a 4 cylinder....what your saying is absolutely hilarious..

please explain to me how a rotary RX7 is more unique than an LS1, LT1,4G63, ect RX7...

DarkLikePoe

Poorly modded rotaries don't even break down that often. Sounds like you're less invested in CORRECT facts than you say, and for a guy who says he doesn't want to start a fight, you are sure chomping at the bit.

Your mastery of the dark art of sarcasm is impressive, if not misguided. Cut the guy some slack. Not everyone who owns cars does it to push the go pedal and get a quarter mile away from where they are in a hurry. There IS value in the novelty of the car. There's something that is amazing about the billions of invested dollars, millions of hours of development, the thousands of races, the hundreds of successes and failures, the dozens of manufacturers, and the one guy who gets to enjoy a hobby because of it all.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

Listen bro, I've seen FC NAs go to 400,000 miles. I know rotaries can be reliable, but generally not after you start trying to get any amount of HP out of them. 2 of the swaps I've done were because the owners were playing with their boost controllers (to get more hp) and it popped.

I'm not trying to be RIGHT and I understand that there are other opinions out there. I'm not trying to persuade the OP, he asked for experiences, and I'm giving them to him. The problem is when people come in and tell me I'm not 'pioneering', my engine has a pig's heart, my car is **** because it doesn't have the engine that the manufacturer put in it, and crap like that.

How's this for pioneering...

The LS1 compressor is only good to about 4500rpms. When in it's original car, there was circuitry in place to monitor many varibles when you want the AC on, ie. engine temps blow 246*, throttle <86%, freon pressure good, etc, and engine rpm below 4500rpms. Once any of those varibles are exceeded, the PCM turns off the comressor until all varibles are good again.

Many swappers just run the AC button to a relay that fires the compressor. The problem with that is that the PCM doesn't know the AC is on, and the engine will struggle at idle due to the extra load, and if you rev it beyond 4500rpms for about 30seconds, you'll blow a hole in your compressor. I know.

So, what I did was poor over technical manuals from GM and Mazda to find a way to get the AC working in the RX7 but still using the GM PCM to monitor it. Therefore you don't risk blowing up your compressor, and the engine runs better at redlights with the AC on.

You have to add the circuitry that was left in the GM car. I figured out how to add this circuitry using 2 separate relays. Then you have to get the GM pressure sensor into the Mazda lines. Since it is a sensor and not a switch, there's no way to trick the computer into thinking the freon pressure is good without having the switch in the line.

The key is this adapter I made.

http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...re-switch.html

Then I had them produced at a local CNC shop.

After that, I did writeups on how to get this circuitry into the FC and then the FD, as the signal from the AC button on both cars is different.

http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...m-control.html
http://www.v8rx7forum.com/v8-rx7-tec...fan-relay.html
scroll to post 22 on the last one.

Granted, I didn't reinvent the ****** wheel or anything, but it was days and days of reviewing the FSMs and many trips into the garage with my meter and my calipers.

There are guys that build subframes to put a Cobra rearend under the FC and FD so there are better gear selections availible, shifter handles, radiator mounts, etc. If you just want to buy a kit and throw the car together, it is very possible, but if you want the car to be RIGHT, it takes tons of research and tons of time.

And I have rotary friends and we don't care who's car is faster, cooler, meaner, cleaner, none of that. We hang, trade parts, talk ****, race everyone else. But, I've never raced any of them. Dunno why, just never have.

Listen, I'm not shitting your opinion. I'm not trying to convince you that my car is better or my engine is the right choice. My car is right for me. My problem is with many people on this board (you are among the few who aren't included in this group) who say that they'll spit in my face because I did with MY car what I want to do. If you've got a rotary, and you need help turning a wrench, give me a call. Need to borrow some tools, come on over. Unfortunately, me and many other engine swappers don't get that kind of respect over here.

Great. I'm not here to tell you otherwise.

Wait, weren't you just telling ME to chill out? I didn't make any back handed comments about your work and I would expect the same.

You mean tuning an engine that the factory put in is pioneering? I'm sure you ran into your share of pitfalls and suprises, but come on....

I never said you opinion was worthless, but when you make unfair comparissons, accuse me of attacking the 13bt, misquote me, and tell the OP that LS swaps are the easy way out, don't expect a e-high five from me.

I don't know **** about Ferarris. Never ridden in one. I don't have any preconceptions about them.

thetech

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure that this is accurate or that you have all the information about why Mazda decided to stop importing the car. FWIW, as I'm sure you know, the car lived a long life in Japan until 2002, along with the Supra which also had a short production run here.

Unseen24-7

Well my motor hasn't had even so much as a hiccup since I bought it in 06, and I wasn't exactly babying it. It's never been rebuilt, it has good compression, and pulls strong.

All I was trying to says was I find V-8 swaps boring, common, "the usual". Like they were cool when only a few guys had them. How many SVT Cobra engine swaps do you hear about?

What exactly is hilarious about what I said? I certanly wasn't trying to be funny, just stating my thoughts is all.

Well besides the obvious rotary to piston engine differences, how many camaros/corvettes/firebirds do you see on the road, and how many FD/FC/FB's do you see on the road (in north america)? which is more common?

They way I see is is if something is LESS common it is, therefore, MORE unique.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the LS engines, they're great, I just don't get why they are consider the ONLY V8 to put in a 7.

DarkLikePoe

Yeah, sorry... that comment was for a different poster.

Look, I apologize if I came off harder than I should have. I'm glad to see that we agree on more points than not. Reading your post clarified a great deal about the ingenuity of the V8 swap community. I hope that in further dealings, we can both recognize our admittedly minor differences and keep chummin' in the RX7 community. I agree that there are a lot of guys who don't understand, with any real depth, anyway, WHY they have the car or engine they have, but that a slight against them sends them off the deep end. I appreciate not being lumped into that group and recognize that you are not among them either.

And as far as tools and help are concerned, the same thing goes. Hell, I even have everything in imperial AND metric! (Damn Datsun... )

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

Maybe you need to ride in one.

Not a single one. DOHC won't fit between the strut towers. Not only that, they're twice as heavy, twice as big, and don't really compare with the LS motors as far as hp & torque... stock for stock.

Fixed

Agreed

And that's the way I feel about rotaries. No hard feelings or anything, just just don't light my candle. Maybe it's because the first rotary I drove had 2 blown rear apex seals. 0-60 was measured by the short hand.

Unseen24-7

I won't deny that they are quick. I have looked under the hood of a few C5, C6 and Z06 vetts, and the engines just dont have that wow factor when you look at them...maybe it's those lame plastic engine covers.

I wasn't saying that it could be done, it was just an example of a non-LS V8.

I don't know...how many do?

grade247

Sorry but right here on this forum a guy pulled his LS motor out of his chevelle and is dropping in a 13B

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

It's all good under the hood bro. Thanks for the offer, but I'm pretty set on tools.... I've got 2 Craftsman boxes chock full that are tall as me.

I'm sure I came across harsh too, but please understand that I've got tons of time wrapped up in my car. Every RX7 I've owned has been V8 powered and I've got tons of time researching it. In my opinion, the LS series motors are cutting edge technology. Go rebuild a 5.0 and then rebuild an LS. You would be amazed at the differences and very impressed with the advances in engineering between the 2. Hell, look at the LS3s, diect injection. 11.5:1 compression STOCK. I've seen magazine articals where they bump them up to 22:1 before they start knocking. These cars and these engines are something that I'm passionate about and when I come on this board and get treated like a second class citizen. All because some schmoe from 2000 miles away thinks that my **** is worthless. But where the rubber meets the road, my car is probably just as well balanced, faster, cleaner, more fuel efficient, and if I have a problem, I can buy parts at any corner autoparts store.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

How bout post a link. I searched quite a few word combos and didn't have any luck finding it.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

I don't know either. But I would wager anything that for every 1 piston powered RX7 you see, you'll see 10 rotary powered ones.

Wouldn't that make it more unique?

grade247

https://www.rx7club.com/old-school-other-rotary-63/1974-13b-re-nova-727207/



My mistake it was a nova. He had an old build up on this a little while back when he had an LS. Not saying a 13b is any better I am just saying certain people are die hard fans of certain motors. Not going to bash the LS hell I grew up around old roadrunners and chevelles I love V8's just like how the rotary works.

Unseen24-7

Sorry I guess I didn't phrase my first response very well. I was talking about the motor and not so much what vehicle they were in.

Rephrased...

How many LS/LT etc. powered vehicles are on the road and how many rotary powered vehicles are on the road. I would think the Rotary would be rarer.

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

The point was that nobody removes an LS1 from an RX-7 because they found the engine lacking. That guy isn't taking out anything from it anyway, it looks like he started with a shell and decided to add a rotary to be unique.

Rotary_Powerd

13b/13b-t, I love those high revving wonderful 20 year old engines...And the N/A is actually pretty reliable. That being said, the LS1 is newer, has better fuel economy, and more powerful. Hence, I greatly respect the swap, I have preference for rotary, but I'm not blind. It's a trade off. I love the rotary engines but they do require more maintenance than piston engines, which is a turn off to most people.

In the end don't ask which is better, read up on the subject. Educate yourself and decide for yourself what fits your needs, and what will make YOU happy. I want a 13bt doesn't mean it's right for everyone. At the end of the day it's your car, so who cares what other people think. As Dave Coleman once said "Other people suck, who cares what they think". Asking for opinions only puts people on edge, defense, and takes away the reason why we are here whether that reason is a SA, an FB, FC or FD.

grade247

Well said I agree completly