Snyper

I can help out the uneducated right here.

1. Very Cheap. 1500$ will get you a bottom end with forged pistons and rod bolts(stock crank is good and been proven to over 1000hp) and the rods are SAFE to 750hp.

2.No, but neither does the 13b..so that question is useless.

3.A cam and headers is what needs to be done. 500$ for headers/Ypipe and about 800$ for a cam/springs/and accessories to make it safe and with the right cam will exceed the 400rwhp mark(yes in a normal LS1)..with heads your closer to 460RWhp.

4.About 1500 or so total. and reliable.

5.500Hp-add a 125shot of nitrous to that.

6. We will go above and beyond the normal kit and say 1000$. Thats with all the bells and whistles.
__________________________________________________ ___

-Heads yes are about 1000$
-Cam and pushrods(you dont need lifters) would add about 450$ to that.(if you find a used one which you will with about 30 secons of looking that price drops down to about 300$)---cams don't wear out.



And yes ill bring in NITROUS. Your right you can nitrous anything, but let me see you throw a 125 shot on a 13b and see it last. Plus your comparing apples to oranges. The 13b already has an unfair advantage with the turbo...the LS1 is NA.Take away the turbo and let me see what you can come up with. You can say what you want but I was being very generous with my pricing as LS1 tech has everything CHEAPER than what I put up.

Ok my turn.

How much would it cost to build a RELIABLE 400RWHP ROTARY that can be driven every day and have the **** beat out of it daily and still keep coming, while just having to change the oil and plugs every once in a while.

How about 500rwhp...reliably???


How about a 3 rotor at those levels?

Roen

iTrader: (2)

I wouldn't call it unfair, adding the turbo.

You're talking turbo with small motor vs. bigger motor? Seems fair in my book.

RETed

Oh, so you're talking about pulling used engines from junked vehicles?
And, on top of that, you're talking about getting deals, right?

$3,000+ for an LS1 long block from Summit Racing
Not too much details
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Almost $7,000 for an LS2 long block from Summit Racing, but this one has all the nitty gritty details - rated only for 400hp
http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku

Both are GM Performance engines straight from Chevrolet.
We're talking 400bhp here, so it's still signficantly off from 400hp at the wheels.

I mean, I can argue I can get deals for a rotary motor too, but don't you think your prices are rather unrealistic for the average Joe?

Where are you getting these $1,500 motors with rods that can handle 750hp?
Are you telling me the stock rods are good for 750?



Okay, this just proves that you're so biased in your argument that you don't want to even see the other side.
Where can you use nitrous?
Most road racing sanctions don't allow you do use nitrous.
This leaves drag racing...
I don't consider drag racing real racing, so the point is moot.
Street racing for an edge?
How long before the bottle runs out?
Unfair due to the turbo?
Well, the 13BT does come stock with a turbo - that's what the thread subject specifically stated.
Why you bitching about it now?
The 13BT has to throw the stock turbo **** away anyways, and power levels we're talking about requires a big turbo upgrade anyways - that's still a significant amount of money (several thousands) to do.
This discussion was about how much money to get X amount of power from each engine options...right?



And you seriously think your LS1 motor is going to last 200,000 miles?
400hp 13B's are more trivial than you think.
You're welcome to go take a peek at the Single Turbo section if you'd like.
500hp is a little more serious, but it's not impossible.
I think you have a misconception on what can and cannot be done with a 13B.
It's just about as bad as the majority of us think of V8's...


20B at 400 / 500 hp?
That's trivial also.
20B is a whole nother ballgame, and it wasn't what the OP intended to discuss in this thread initially.
20B pumping out 600hp should be pretty damn reliable, but the swap isn't for the faint of heart.


-Ted

jimlab

Hey Ted,

Honestly, why do you post in this forum? Who made it your job to provide comparison shopping advice on the rotary for people who are here to find information about installing a different engine? The only person who should care how much it costs and which engine they use is the one doing the conversion, not some rotary-loving asshat who doesn't have anything better to do with his spare time than cruise the OEC forum looking for trouble.

You, Hoskinson, and Barban should just stay the **** out of this forum. You have no business here and your net contribution is zero. Divide by zero, carry the zero... still zero.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

zero divided by zero is infinite, or undefined......ERROR.......CANNOT PROCESS.....

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

lol Roen.

damn Jim, i was thinking, this is the nicest thing Jim has ever said to....oh, nevermind. lol

RETed: I'll play nice if you do.

Are you saying that when you blow your motor your going to buya reman from a Mazda dealership? or are you going to buy a rebuild kit and rebuild your "junked" motor? or are you going to get a used running motor from a "Junked" car?


These are moot points. Yeah, i can buy Brand new stuff that is pretty expensive. or i can buy used stuff that is still in perfect working condition. I mean, would you rather buy a factory mazda FD interior peice Brand new from mazda, or a perfectly good used peice from someone parting their car.



400bhp; B stands for Brake correct? arnt brakes located at the wheels? This is an honest question. i always thought bhp was hp at the brakes(aka wheels)

I honestly dont. his pricing seems pretty on to me.


www.Ls1tech.com I got my motor from a local guy in town for $2300. Also i would like to point out, you can get a slightly detuned 5.3L for about $700 complete. these are out of the GM trucks and are very plentiful. Snyper meant the stock rods can handle 750hp. and like he said, the stock crank can handle over 1k hp.


were not talking about where you can use the hp. we are talking about how cheaply we can obtain the hp. Do you ONLY drive your car on the track? if so, then i can see your point about not being able to use nitrous at the a specific track date. otherwise, moot point.

How long does it take to fill it back up?


So if our engines required a big turbo to get the numbers we are currently making, it would be considered, ok to have have one. Your talking about huge aftermarket turbos, not stock parts. So i'm going to assume if we threw a turbo on the V8, you prolly wouldnt complain that is an unfair advantage on our behalf.



not to sure, i didnt read most of the thread. but i will assume yes.

I dont know of too many people that have put that kind of milage on their lS motors, but i have no doubt that it will run to 140k-160k with regular maintence.



the 20B is about as obtainable as an Ls7 motor. Obtainable, but still very very expensive. and yes, i know the ls7 is much more expensive, but you also cant just slap in a 20B and call it a day either.

what does the avg. 20b swap cost?

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

Then why did you bring up $7000 LS2s in your very next post?

Cheap enough

Stock motor + cam/springs + longtubes= 400hp



Cam+springs = $500 new, used ones are $300
Longtubes = $500 - $850, depending on what kind you get.

Heads, valvejob, LS6 intake, ported TB

Porting bit from Summit = $45, that covers the heads and TB




LS6 intake = $300
Valvejob at machine shop = $125

You don't need rods to hit 500hp. Not only that, but if you're talking about a car that can outperform a C5 Z06 @ 1/3 the price, I say it's pretty cheep. If you were building a Honda, a $1000 part would be hard to swallow.

Granted, at the 500hp level, building a 2 rotor isn't easy either.

Show me a motor where 400hp is cheep.

And, yes. 90% of the swappers get their engines from wrecked cars. Where do you get your rotary cores? Straight from the Mazda dealership? I've bought pullouts (meaning engine, tranny, computer, & harness) with a 6speed for $2000, and with an auto for $1700. Granted, those are slammin deals, but deals can be had.

I have to agree with Jim on this one, if you're not bringing any info to the table, your questions are useless.

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

Just to further emphasize how cheap it can be to mod an ls1. i will post some links.
Brand new Nitrous kit for $350:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=843799

WestCoast Racing Cylinder Heads for $650
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862216

Extreamly nice flowing Ported Heads for $1400
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...ighlight=heads

COMP Cams Steel Valve Spring for $25
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=862216

BRAND NEW AFR 8017 valve springs for $100
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=858135

224r cam for $225
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...ighlight=heads

thunder racing 224/224 R model Camshaft for $225
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=860959

Custom Grind Cam for $315
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...light=camshaft

TSP Magic stick 4! for $275 shipped!
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...light=camshaft

Push Rods
$85
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...light=pushrods
$75
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...light=pushrods
$75
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...light=pushrods
$70
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...light=pushrods

Ls6 Intakes for $350 & $415 & $325
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...ghlight=intake
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...ghlight=intake
http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread...ghlight=intake

Brand new Cam and head installation kit from LMperformance for $300:
http://www.lmperformance.com/2073/27.html
Head and cam kit from EPP for $300:
http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com....html?item=507

The deals are out there. and i found these all with in minutes.
The heads are the expensive things to buy. And if you pick up a stock pair for about 50-100 bucks or so and get them ported by a reputable company, the price isnt bad for the amount of power you get, especially when paired with a good flowing intake and a good cam. Its all about the combo. not how much BRAND NEW parts cost.

Pick a combo from above, Is that REALLY that expensive for the amount of power and you get and still be able to obtain daily drive ability?

How much is it to upgrade to a nice single turbo?

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

LoL. Nice post Greg!

Now now Greg, I think our answers to his questions brought a lot to his peticular table. Because of RETed's questions, others are much more informed.

But to tell you the truth, i'd rather keep most people in the dark regarding these swaps. they are just way too cool and i would be very disappointed if i saw one on every corner, like i see 240sx's

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

How bout a whipple charged 5.3l 2000 Silverado. Same basic engineering as on the LS motors. It's used to pull a covered trailor and my FD and other cars to and from the track quite frequently, it's pulled more cars on a dolly that you can count. 100% stock motor with the whipple bolted on. Motor has never been opened up. Only thing that has been changed on this motor is the throttlebody (add a ported one) and the idler pullies.

Motor is sitting at 190k as we speak

Snyper

There ya go.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

Is 'nother' a word?

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

Take a chill pill Mark. your post seems so filled with rage and hate. lol. your pretty spot on minus the attitude in your post, but this statment is ridiculus regarding the 20B: "...its the only motor that can(possibly) put up a fight against the LS1."

come on now. Your going to lead them into other non-related topic arguments.

RETed and others "fighting for the rotary cause", please disregard that statment. Thank you, i appreciate your compliance.

Greg- come on..

I swear you two, if you dont start behaving, your going straight to your rooms when we get home.

Eat-Pez

iTrader: (1)

I'm just yankin his crank.... ummm... e-shaft.

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

I'm eagerly awaiting Ted's response.

Roen

iTrader: (2)

Hmm....wonder what the weight of an all aluminum 20B would be? Probably costs a good 15,000 for the motor alone though.

slo

iTrader: (1)

Racing beat told me 175 pounds for the "short" block when assembled with an iron stock 20B front center plate, all other side housings made of aluminum, so less than the weight of a stock 13b "short" block.

I asked off hand when I was there last year picking up some parts.


Ted would be stupid to respond to this one.

Snyper

[QUOTE=Brismo7;7862505]Take a chill pill Mark. your post seems so filled with rage and hate. lol. your pretty spot on minus the attitude in your post, but this statment is ridiculus regarding the 20B: "...its the only motor that can(possibly) put up a fight against the LS1."

come on now. Your going to lead them into other non-related topic arguments.QUOTE]

I appologize.I don't mean to come off as an angry *******. I just don't like idiots. (again) I have NOTHING against rotary owners. Its their car their choice,and I think rotaries are pretty cool. I don't even have anything against rotary owners whove swapped to an LS1 and then swapped back(are their any?) What I do have a problem with people talking **** about the swap and calling us idiots when theyve never even owned/driven/or been in one.

Snyper

Now we are in the LS9 territory. 620hp STOCK.

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

yeah, i hear you on that one mark. ignorance is not bliss.

FD with ls9 couldnt be considered a blue devil. but more of a Ferocious Devil. FD

Roen

iTrader: (2)

right, but, to be fair, you gotta let the rotorheads spend more money on the engine than piston engine in order to offset the years of development that the piston engines have over the rotaries.

Gotta find some way to even out the technological advantage.

I got an idea, but can you post information on the LS1 w/ cams, heads, intake, full exhaust

(i.e, tell me what the following are)

Peak whp @ peak whp RPM
Redline RPM
Rev Limit RPM
T56 Gear Ratios
Final Drive Gear Ratio

That front center plate couldn't be made aluminum?

Brismo7

iTrader: (2)

i'm sure i can find the bone stock numbers for:

Peak whp @ peak whp RPM
Redline RPM
Rev Limit RPM
T56 Gear Ratios
Final Drive Gear Ratio

this on a Ls1/2/3/7

but i dont know if i can find that information with aftermarket heads and cams and so on...

I'm at work, i'll find and post some dyno sheets with said mods later when i get home. gear ratios shouldnt be hard to find at all. as for the rear end. do you want the ratios for the rx7? cuz thats most V8 swappers use. TII rear ends are the most commonly. But other do swap in cobra rear ends which are dramtically higher.(numerically lower)

Roen

iTrader: (2)

hmm....no one has any dyno graphs? I twould be hard to find whp from factory brochures anyway. Surely someone in OEC has dynoed a cams, heads, intake and exhaust LS1 before, no?

The last three should be the same regardless, i.e. what are the gear ratios on the most popular transmission/rearend option. ECU rev limit shouldn't change either upon mods, nor should redline change......at least I think.

Snyper

Ignorance is annoyance.

jimlab

You've got to be ******* kidding.

The rotary engine has had 50+ years of R&D, and it "only has 3 moving parts", to quote the favorite saying of rotards everywhere. If that's the case, what's so ******* difficult to perfect about the rotary that they couldn't manage it in 50 years?

I've got news for you. You've already seen the pinnacle of rotary development, and it's called the Renesis. Unfortunately, it still has all of the same problems every other rotary engine has. 3 moving parts or not, combustion chambers shaped like a football do not produce efficient combustion and never will, no matter how much R&D dollars you throw at the problem. The same goes for dumping partially burned fuel into the exhaust. You're never going to make much power and be able to pass emissions standards.

My advice? Stay on your meds and don't try to think.