gerald m

Thanks bumpstart , I guess if we go back what 4 years now there have been quite a few people put their knowledge up for grabs , all have a big thanks from me and they all know who they are , again I say it's a great forum and one people can be proud being part of .

You ask me earlier if that was the first start and yes the first time the propane was turned on was in the start up video , like i said it almost startled me when it hit right off as I did expect a bit of fooling before things got right ,, Happy to say now when he starts there is no oil or problems starting ,, the reason I could smell a bit of LPG was because I gave it a push on the primer when it was already hard and it just let more into the hose , then never started it for 3 or 4 minutes ,, It was just vapor from the hose

Anyway I put that timing light back in my truck and will buy my own so for just sitting in the video it is just by ear but it does sound happy there . Kinda makes me want to do another build , but I am still waiting on the woman who own the little truck . It has sat now for 20 years or more but if In can get my stubby little fingers on it me thinks it would be the perfect unit to pull the dragon to the races with , the little truck is hid well I don't think anyone will find it where it is . I would sell that little wagon in a minute to help finance the truck build . but first finishing the dragon . Thank-you everyone

gerald m

Sorry missed your question ,, Yes this is #2 engine , it has all new consumables inside . with the Rotary Aviation's classic apex seals for boost purposes , something else I bought special for that little guy but darn if I can remember ,of course we moded the oil pump with a adjustable pressure adjuster . and just did a really good clean up , the inside iron parts were in very nice shape just cleaned everything and did a little secret lapping here and there . It's solid no worries with it before the mods . #1 engine is fine it had a vacuum leak and didn't find it until I had the little bugger out but it is solid although the apex seals I assume are just plain old seals . But if #2 splodes I wouldn't be afraid to use #1 .

bumpstart

if that was the n02 engine first fire up then it is even more impressive and a credit to your build

dizzy wise it sounds like it is timed well

.. and if you can confirm your brand of ignitor retards slightly with revs when at its optimum polarity for the signal wires .. at a rate akin to 3 degree every 4000 rpm
then it brings increasing margin to the tune and infact may allow us to use the dizzy without modding the mechanical curve

.. though it may restrict your base timing to around 5 degrees.. you wont notice this if you are using the rpm based clutch

gerald m

The #2 engine was used last year and was rebuilt the winter before last but in reality only has maybe 10 hours tops. will try to come up with something that I can restrict the advance movement on the dizzy without welding so it could be field changed if necessary without a hassle .

I put new modules in this year just to make sure everything was good the new ones are made by Echlin PN TP45SB and are used in the early model HEI for GM vehicles . 4 prong not the 7 prong smart module which I think were used in later models to control fuel injection and a couple other things .

A note on the B9EGV first thing I noticed was they don't have a snap like most plugs , these guys actually hiss when they fire and seem to make a long intense spark . I can even hear them hiss inside when they are installed and the dizzy is tickled . No complaints just noting something a little different in plug firing .

Now the smoke has cleared I am going to take a bit of time and go over a few things that need a bit of attention just ordered a second propane line the same as the one on the bike for transferring fuel from my main supply to the fuel vessels ,. and in a pinch could be used if the hose assembly on the bike should it give leaking problems .

bumpstart

try the stock dizzy set at 5 BTDC
( with a standard non dial back timing light and the vac advance hose connected )

this is the most you could push a standard dizzy to before you found a need to start to restrict the timing
( with the normal modules that advance slightly at revs )

disconnect the vac advance hose and plug it

rev the engine to 6000.. this will take the dizzy through its normal mechanical curve
( usually 25- 30 crank degrees all in by 3500 -4000 engine rpm )
AND give us an indication which way your modules will trend as respective to the timing drift inherent in the Vr system

i am expecting the dizzy to have added 25 and you have peaked at 30 BTDC around 4000 rpm before trending ( perhaps ) down to 25 with the modules

if this is what you see then there is no need to modify the dizzy.. as your response and starting seem quite good ATM
( a consequence of not modding the inlet timing and having high comp rotors with a good seal )
as such 5 BTDC may be plenty for you down low.. especially considering the rpm based clutch system

the ultimate goal is to have the engine timed around 25 BTDC
( and maybe one or three more )
at 4000-5000 and have the boost retard system pull around 1 degree for 1 psi from there

at any rate you have a slight margin on my old setup as i would think you are using HD 5 grade propane if using the cooking stuff
( 105 combined octane number .. 100 MON.. 111 RON )

any more base timing than the 5 BTDC and you will need to restrict the dizzys internal mechanical curve to hold the ceiling down at revs

the half washer method allows you to close the mech gap to half ,, and you can open the washer up progressively with a die grinder to tailor the curve till you get things to stop around 25 BTDC

gerald m

tried the wires swapped on the dizzy and no we wont go there ,it acts the same as the other dizzy did and i spent a ton of time last year trying to get it to run with the wires reversed with no success at best it would start and run like crap even with the dizzy turned .
I am going to incorporate a fuel filter with a check valve into the air feed to the tank for the water injection so I can trap the boost pressure in the tank so it will have pressure when liquid is called for and not need to build it every time .

I will give the timing a go and see what shows .


I see you found your way into my RX3 wagon stuff . Yes I found the rear rotor to be galled on the side but it cleaned up fine in the lathe using a very fine emery stone instead of a cutter . the housings although they do show a tiny bit of chrome erosion on the edge in a couple spots but feel it also cleaned up good . I agree it does look like it was starved for oil and that combined with some high RPM's could do just what you speak of . I reassembled that little guy without the consumable parts just to keep it all together . I did find a dealer that has all the necessary seal material in california but some parts are proving to be evasive and those that have don't want to sell ,not that I blame them .


by the way going through google the other day didnt pay much attention but there was a wright up on the dragon in some bike magazine cant remember where or what .

bumpstart

yes.. that old 12a looks good but thinks the rear plate galled and the side seals failed on the ends
as it has the silly thermal bypass system in the front plate and that may have stuck open
it was an option for low temp region early TD engines
and mazda later just bunged all the engines there with a staked bung
,, the thermal pellet on the other hand can be spaced up with a stack of appropriate washers and re-installed so it stays lodged in the shut position

the plate can be machined and you have to take the high spots off the rotor land/ rotor gear without taking down the original height of the rotor land itself
( else the entire rotor side will need to be machined to re-establish the rotor land protrusion )

the viton water seal materials i can sort for you from this end via paypal if you cannot find genuine TD water seal kit
and the side seals are the same as the SD 12a /13b pre 86 ( 1mm ) ones.. there is an early number to quote to get the oversize ones to file to length
( i have a cut down rotor to do this at the correct angles )
but you can order the late ones ( much closer to size.. or atkins ones.. to cut down )
and just omit the inner side seal all together
( this allows you to port further before the side seal drops into the port )


s4 engines also have a thermal pellet system though it is built into the end of the crank snout,, and is also fixed by spacing it back with washers
( or buying solid pellet from atkins etc )

if you still have that on the dragon engines it will make the oil pressure readings a bit funky till it warms and shuts

gerald m

forgot to mention the oil injector lines filled quite fast after I got the OMP control arm held up for a while .
the engine runs on because of the alt. being combined with other electrical feeds . and does not need to have a field to charge full . I will deal with that .

so were going to leave one side seal out on the 12a and port it are we ?? huuum sound interesting . and then what are we going to do with it . are those little dudes capable of doing 1/4 mile work or is that best left for the 13's

bumpstart

those old 12a's feature rather generous primary porting ( and casting ) compared to late engines

they where 130 HP stock.. the later 12a dropped a bit ..

and they will do very impressively with just a mild port.. nothing too fancy .. and nothing out of scope of the old carb

i expect some sort of electronic pickup conversion for the dizzies and that is a bout it
.. uber reliable and quite zippy in an rx3 wagon

gerald m

I Moded a dist. up for a old flat head ford years ago for a dual set of points , don't see why I couldn't do the same with the dizzy and go the other way to electronic .

Hey now I see what you are up to . first into my RX3 stuff now wants to build peppy rotary wagon ,, MAN WHAT NEXT !!!

OK !!

yea I must have been weak in the head when I said I would part with the wagon to build the little truck . but that is bull I keep all , everything I have is for sale but I don't advertise it ,, someone might buy something then what would I do .

blwfly

iTrader: (4)

very cool project..

gerald m

Figured this is pretty high vacuum compared to the 500 Holley set up or any set up for that matter . the best the carb had was 20 hg and that was at a very low idle when timing set it was around 17.5 hg the propane conversion but don't see how the turbo addition would do it .

Thought maybe the mixer with the larger area oval throttle plate might have something to do with that , the idle screw (( on the Throttle plate not on the side of the mixer )) is pretty much backed off so the plate almost totally closed ,, idling @ 1000 I can actually take it down to about 700 before it lets go and dies but when the idle is increased to 1300 or so the hg even seems to climb a tad more after 1400 or 1500 the hg does start to drop but even on a quick throttle snap it still stays up good ,,.. Not complaining about the high hg just trying to understand why .. the vacuum for the gauge is being drawn from the LIM front rotor .. Any thoughts on that

bumpstart

that is an excellent vacuum to make at idle ( 1000? ) and it indicates the engine is having efficient combustion

you have ideal mixture for total combustion and the timing is very good
and you have great sealing and stock porting and high comp rotors and it is all coming together nicely



if you get the idle leaner it may drop a few hundred rpm

but for you.. there is no point.. go for the mix and the timing that bring you the strongest vacuum around 1000 rpm




i try and get all readings relative at the same 1000 rpm idle
for a comparison most mild port petrol EFI engines will idle 17/18 inch Hg around there

my ( extended 4 port ) LPG motor ( with standard TB which is much larger than yours )
can manage that with mixtures around 13.8:1 ( LPG AFR )
but if i tune it to a perfect 15.5 :1 ( lambda 1 ) at idle the vacuum will drop back to 14-15 inch Hg and the idle a little rougher

if i tune for a 1500 rpm idle i will see about 20 inch Hg

if i fiddle it.. then i can get mine to idle along at a sub 500 rpm though the vacuum is around 10 inch Hg

gerald m

Got this info from co-op where I buy my fuel . some good info and some useless info but everything is here that anyone should ever want to know .. There are definitely two different kinds of propane manufactured by different fuel companies . the co-op however does not make two different octane ratings they simply produce the 104 octane fuel for motor vehicles and sell the same for barbecue type applications . (( they told me it is cheaper to make one octane for vehicles and sell the same for cooking than make two different products .

So at least in Canada if bought at the co-op gas bars the fuel will always be 104 octane . I'm certainly not promoting co-op fuels this is just where the info came from .

to stsrt with everyone at the station told me there is no octane rating for propane but when I told her there was definitely a rating just no one has ever asked so she got on the phone and this is the info I received a couple minutes later . Please feel free to pass it on .

So far the price in Saskatchewan is very close to $1.00 per pound .. Sorry for the double pages

bumpstart

should post that bit up on the alternative fuels sub forum ( here ) and ( there )

as that is one of the most comprehensive list of physical properties on an LPG fuel grade i have yet seen

going by the glance on that then it may not be HD5./. but a HD10 equiv mixture
( where up to 10% of the mix can be butane and butenes , propylene and others )

i expect that the choice there is dictated by vapour pressure at very cold temps , and you would require a bit more propane content than other regions
( in deference increasing butane content pumps up the energy density but drops the effective octane and in higher densities can bring starting issues in sub 10 C conditions )

the quality is still very good in terms of octane rating
but is a little down on energy density compared to what i see

( you make that back by adding extra boost using the margins your better octane brings )

here in aus they can blend almost 40% butane in summer months but only have to maintain a 90.5 MON octane
( usually an equiv to 98 RON octane , keep in mind that butane and propane are the main constituents and have RON of 97 and 110 respectively and that makes it very difficult to lower the RON below 98 )

though logistics and economics of being on the west cost of australia
( the camel carrying the countries load )
that give us a different "default" standard to the rest of the country

in WA our local stream of NG being very good for its "side" propane content
and so at times the quality can be very pure in the local autogas

lots of propane,, so few cars ..

,, it is all depending on the time at how much excess butane the local oil refinery needs to "hide" into the high proportion propane condensates coming from the NG gas pipelines

so while sometimes i may be getting HD 10 or better ( 105 RON )
at others i may only be getting 98-100 RON
and it is noticable in the start and idle qualities and the natural AFRs it wishes to settle at
( higher butane feels better off boosts but starts hard in cold conditions and has a true lambda 1 around 15.3 or 15.4:1 whilst propane is 15.6:1 )

all in all.. for your needs ( a high comp motor under boost with minimal off boost operation ) the more propane,, the better


here is a couple of good links more relevant to north american readers

http://assets.slate.wvu.edu/resource...1287596146.pdf

http://305762_MORGANTI file properties.pdf


http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehicles...cs/jtb_lpg.pdf

bumpstart

shame i cant link that morganti file properly
.. it is very technical but goes in depth into doing fresh confirmations on the MON
.. and the previously assumed RONs of various LPG blend standards
using a fresh test rig
( being until then no true confirmed way of assessing the RON of propane and LPG blends )

it goes on to describe the roles of blending on flame speed ( propagation ), end temperatures and emms

and even as far as introducing small amounts of nitrous oxides in the fuel


there is much discussion on the variations of US, canada, euro and aus standards

it goes on to confirm that due to blending ratios that fit the vapour pressure limits allowed then the worst you could get in aus would be an equiv 99.5 RON
and may be as much as 110 ( pure propane )

and that in canada and the US.. it is a HD5 / special duty equiv .. and is 108.2 RON
( tested...not average estimated as was previously the case )

gerald m

Just a few half runs and tuning a bit .. Had a problem with the bike keeping up the revs and getting lazy even dying for a half second about half track , As soon as it would start to die out I could hear a huge rush of air coming from the intake snorkel .

Of course my very limited experience with turbo had me really thinking what was happening , I couldn't hear the wastegate opening so started checking ,, the line I ran from pressure nipple to wastegate had a blockage not of something foreign but like there was a thick membrane blocking the line , put on a new line now need to test again , I cut the line down to the blockage and it is for sure a factory flaw in the tubing . so replaced it now we see what happens .

It seemed the turbo put so much boost into the little dude it just over feed it and died out . probably a good hint that we should have a BOV weather we need it or not .

For the first half of the 200 ft. run it rips hard (( not at wot maybe 3/4 or a little less )) it's all i can do to stay with it , got a wore out knobby about have tread left but rounded on edges on it now , with a new one it will be very close to going past the stupid line . however the secoud half is where the intake boost pressures seemed to peak without the wastegate opening and would hesitate , dump a huge rush of air and then get right back into it .

My chum did get a short bit of video and will upload right away ..

Had a bit of a charging problem just loose wire ,, but when the battery got down to below 12 v the pre regulator solenoid control valve will not open fully and engine will not start there is just enough fuel to tease it into firing on . once charging it worked great .. All in all I think the whole thing will be great still working these little pests out .. I presume the water injection is working as the filter had water in it . The heat factor is not a factor at all , in all honesty I think the rider position is cooler than it was with the two little 2 inch header pipes , I don't have a temp gauge pick up for the little dude but coolant temp seems to be ok so I will try to find a remote pickup that attaches to the hose close to thermostat or something like that , maybe that is something to add to the wideband set up . READY for another test .. the characteristics of handling really haven't changed , it's much more aggressive but still manageable . The bike tends to feel light when crossing the line . Don't think I am interested in running it more than the 200 ft. max line unless things are smooth (( like pavement ))then I for sure would . If it had anymore traction it would need something to keep the frontend down , the only thing , the lack of traction is a good safety factor for grass and sand .

bumpstart

the blocakge in the balance line will have prevented the vapouriser from raising the fuel delivery pressure in accordance with boost and casued a lean out


however a similar issue can arise in this setup with closed throttle reversion making for a rise in fuel pressure on off throttle
and it is running so rich you have a huge hesitation when you get back on it
and this is why i was hinting that you may need a BOV to recirc the pressure back to the turbo inlet on shut throttle

( it is certainly required in a manual transmission vehicle )

gerald m

Yes I hear ya but am putting my money down on the line being blocked causing it to lean out . that's exactly what it felt like . I know what you mean by throttle snaping closed thing I felt it but there is really no reason to close it off that fast there is lots of runway . but yea in the future we will have a BOV installed somewhere ., I think I should get WILL to make me a aluminum manifold to take place of MOST of the blue elbow running to the mixer then we will have lots of room to mount one .

forgot to mention that I can probably get 6 maybe 8 runs tops , before he runs low on fuel . I ran him pretty much empty but I could feel him getting weak the run before I shut down to check and they were both pretty much empty to the liquid tube . If I can get 6 - 200 ft. runs I will be happy , that's a lot of turning around also .. Me thinks it would make the 1/4 mile with 2 tanks might even make it back . which is a requirement for the class I would be in (( V8 and others class more or less )) . The drive belt is still the same one I ran all last year and still is nice shape , no burns or curl ups on the edges . very happy with that . I was talking about time on the 200 ft run , I told them it was maybe 4 seconds and they both informed me they took a few counts between start and finish @ around 2.5 sec. so there is just no time to look at gauges or anything . barely enough time to focus on the spot I pick to head for The nylon stocking thing worked out real well for the air cleaner but I will tell ya it's embarrassing as hell to have a bunch of women watching me buying nylon stockings , you know the kind that are calf high with the nice black seam going down the back .

bumpstart

when you do get there .. the PLX AFR is now gen 4 ( one more than last month !! ) and now features an LSU 4.9 sensor ( instead of the LSU 4.2 we are all stuck with )

and it will record a trend .. so you can get a view of the mixtures over your last blast without having to look till you have time to..

for the boost gauge .. you can do a little trick.. it involves using parts from the old rats nest emms rack found on most engines

if you use a couple of tiny garden sprinkler tees,, the green one way valve
( found in most s4 nests ) and one of the little three way solenoids ( and a switch )

then you can hook up a setup where when the switch is disabled.. then signal gets to the boost gauge unfettered
( using the normally open orientation on the three way solenoid )

and when the switch is enabled.. via the N/C connections on the solenoid ,, via the one way valve .. to the boost gauge

this enables it to be in "boost recall" mode

where it will hold full boost reading until you flick the switch back

gerald m

Kinda took it easy when I found out the waste gate was not opening and of course causing max boost . so just did a bunch of starts , he is still very well behaved and handles much the same as last year just much more power . I still don't know what is working or not when it comes to all the add ons but the water injection filter has water in it so something is happening there . the guys did a couple checks just with a stop watch and figured 2.5 seconds on a couple of times , my point being that there is just no time to look at stuff . so we will probably be going to the PLX=AFR gen 4 Bumpstsrt was checking out the new 4 th gen and that will probably be what we head for and we will let that do the looking for us . The noise is just the new loose chain touching the guard he tight now .

Ok the reason the wastegate was not opening was because the boost line had a piece of the line molded across the tube as if something made a drip inside the tube and got hard , (( same stuff the hose was made of molded right to the tube not just a piece stuck there . so now I can take it out and give him a little more to see what happens .

The energy the little guy builds even without working proper is quite a feeling even just a quick blast requires my full attention . the tire slip is a pretty good safety factor . even with a new sharp edged Kenda Knobby things could get pretty light .

bumpstart

the way to test the wastegate is with your air hose from the compressor

in the vid it appears that is not opening yet ( very loud )

im guessing the water injection has already saved you when it has overboosted and leaned out,, both due to dodgy hoses out of the box

gerald m

Yes the wastegate is bench set at 7 pounds to open so when it balanced out I figured 5.5 to 6 . used a electronic regulator to set the gate bought specially for that . the hose came with my water injection kit . never dreamed to blow through the line but good lesson and on the bright side it stood up , it is timed conservatively so that probably helped also .

bumpstart

yes the propane has its own safety margins and the engine will continue to make more boost
( albiet slowly ) even at the LPG lambda one ( AFR = 15.5:1 )

whilst the petrol engine will have detonated itself to pieces when under boost at a lambda of one
( AFR =14.7:1 )

all good so far , and some lessons learned during the shakedowns . but all in all a very forgiving setup

gerald m

No complaints on the build ,, I wish I would have discovered the problem before going to young . I had no Idea there was problems as it never hit the ground until we unloaded there or never would have taken it out without correcting things . Yes the little green one way valve I know the one you mean I should have 2 of them around somewhere , I could use the other to trap pressure in the water tank .