gerald m

Yea I'v been to a few different sites and the Atkins stuff will probably be just fine , I was considering the RA kits but just because they were a tad cheaper. I was also looking at the RA Classic Apex seals , they work out to about 100.00 bucks more than the Atkins but if they are worth an extra 100.00 maybe that is what I should do ,. It's not like I have a huge power or high RPM. engine but that said It will be WOT every time it goes out ( no Sunday driving for the dragon I'm afraid ) and it does hit and sometimes exceed the 8000 mark on a good day. (I don't think the 500 Holley will let enough air through to go much higher than that and maybe for now that is a good thing ). So if that is where I should consider a bit better quality I don't have a problem with that .. Thoughts ? Gerald m. While i'm at it is there anything to do with the oil pressure regulator valve ( rear housing ) besides just flushing with clean solvent and pumping the piston a few times and re oiling ? I don't find any info at all on the valve besides what it is .

bumpstart

oil pressure reg can be modded for a bit more pressure,, in your situ,, stock is 72 psi,, and 90 psi is closer to ideal for most mild street engines with a turbo

for NA.. mods arent that necessary unless lots of revs //

mods include crushing the end in a vice
or
refitting the 74-78 valve ( and adding a spacer under the spring )
or
,, adding the FD valve..
or
welding a nut to the end of it and winding a bolt and lock nut on to wind up the spring

gerald m

Now how did you know I was thinking that ?? All I said was is there anything I could do , But now that YOU mention it I was kinda thinking if I drilled into the base on the opposite side of the roll pin plug took out the roll pin I could washer that puppy up a tad and put the roll pin back in the hole and peen the hole closed so the pin can't move. should be just like down town :icon Me no like the crush idea but I like the idea of a little more pressure ,that spring must be getting a bit weak by now anyway . My oil pump shows no wear so it should have no problem with a bit extra pressure demand . Me thinks 2 washers or maybe I'll make a spacer with a taper so it can fit tight on the hole lip . Yea I think I like that idea .

bumpstart

all the pre FD regs are 72 psi .,. the 74-78 you can unscrew apart.. later ones are unitary and ts going to be a tricky job to pull them apart

old trick in the 74-78 is put an old corner seal under the spring.. bumps pressure cold at idle with s4t pump to around 115 psi
though pump will max out around 100 when oil thins a bit with operating temps

in the s4 NA engine you have,, the turbo pump fits up and brings a deeper rotor for more volume output


somewhere i have pics of the bolt and nut setup.. doesnt take much of a wind up to put pressure to 90 psi .. and you can check your results on a jig off the air compressor

gerald m

Ok .it's always nice to look at a picture ,.. yes I was thinking that the bypass oil comes out the end but no it comes out the sides so I could machine the proper amount off the tapered end until the spring comes out weld a say 7/16 nut or close to that on the remaining taper insert spring through nut hole install short bolt with lock nut , tighten short bolt against spring until proper pressure is acquired and lock nut .

So when this is done is there a chance that I could have problems with the O ring blowing out on the front cover or will the front cover pressure regulator take care of that ? Thanks for your time bumpstart .much appreciated as always I love these extras that you just don't find in books . Gerald m.

bumpstart

90 psi is no problem for the old style timing cover o ring,, however i dont recommend above that unless you have s5 front plate ( nylon support ) or do a few tricks with the timing cover
( namely delete the gasket and the OMP and silicon the timing cover with the slighty o/s s2 o ring )

90 is plenty to ensure extra cooling in the rotor tips and extra pressure above the shell bearings for higher loads but not high enough to stress o rings in timing cover or oil pedestel

you have the technique correct for the spring method... if you is lucky there is an imperial bolt that will tap directly into the end and still catch the spring .. i weld the nut and use a lock nut against it to be sure

gerald m

There that should do the job . You get a big cookie for that Bumpstart .

gerald m

I am replacing all this stuff just wondering if this is normal wear or was the side seals a little tight on the corner seals to make the wear marks ?? Also noticed that the soft seal in the corner seals of one rotor were to long ( not trimmed proper )and kept the springs from working ( If you can call them springs. ) What shitty little springs , no wonder all of them on both rotors were stuck in the bottom of the hole , I hope the bigger flat ones do a better job than the little half moon pieces of poo spring .

Ordered most of the parts that I need for my rebuild ,should be here in a few days . RA classic Apex seals and springs , rotor kit and seal kit from Atkins everything for the rotors including the o rings for the oil control rings . The only thing I didn't order is the hard side oil seals ,, I really don't mind if I get a little puff of smoke on start up ,, it just tells me that the rotors are lubricated

By the stamps on the rotor housing it was rebuilt in 92, I'm convinced that the rear rotor had coolant issues and was left sit more than once causing all the hardware to stick to the rotor seals springs etc. and stuck it was ., Looks like there was problems with something internal and the engine was tore down and reassembled with out the necessary new parts ( I'm guessing that is why all the silicone was used ) causing the seals to leak . All in all I think this little engine is a good candidate for a rebuild and will work great in the Dragon ,.. By the time I'm done the cost will be around 1000 bucks . Gerald m.

gerald m

Got my classic apex seals and springs from RA . only took about 8 days to get to Pump Handle ,easy deal .

My rotor kits and seals on the other hand was a bit of a bitch . My Bad I'm not knocking anyone ..
never thought when I ordered from Atkins . Without thinking I used my credit card instead of pay pal of which I am a member and it got to the point after 3 E-mails of them wanting more info each time ,they said because of credit card fraud of which most of us are aware exists. I finally refused anymore info for the same basic reasons they had and told them to cancel my order . I reordered a few days later using PayPal and everything has gone smooth so far I will post how things go the stuff is in the system so things are happening .

Thought I had the seal grooves cleaned good until I started to clean things up for the second time and found that the seal grooves ( That I thought I had clean were still crusty as hell with rusty looking crap so started the cleaning over again ..
I guess my point is I read all the time on and off forum about one company or another ,doesn't matter who refusing to guarantee there coolant seals and telling people that there grooves were still dirty when seal failure occurs . I tend to agree with the companies that claim this after what I found with my own coolant seal grooves .. SO anyone doing there first build or two I would suggest after you have got your seal grooves clean , clean your seal grooves . A few pics of stuff I removed after I thought they were clean ..

gerald m

Do you know what one old Snowman said to the other old Snowman ???
Sniff , Sniff , Sniff Sniff Sniff , Hey bill do you smell carrots ?

Merry Christmas ! Hope everyone has a healthy year .

gerald m

Been a while since any updates ,I didn't bother to do a vid of the rebuild since there are already tons of them on the subject . finished the little engine rebuild so it's just waiting for me to get the bike ready for transplant.

The braking system needs improving. I will be installing rear Harley caliper and 11.5 inch disc and doing away with the front . ( pretty scary stuff just using front to stop the beast.) When that is done then I can concentrate on making it go faster rather than stopping.

Never had time last year to do any paint so now that the main build is over I can concentrate on making the Dragon look a little better and doing a few upgrades . there are midnight drags at lots of events so I guess I need a headlight . And for sure a gel battery ( the Dragon destroyed 3 batteries last summer in very short order 2 good ones and one older one ,the old guy lasted just as long as the good ones )so that will be a priority in the spring , I see no reason to buy one now and let it sit all winter .

There have been a handful of members helping me with technical things and a ton of good suggestions, please feel free to post your thoughts just because I don't use them all it doesnt mean I don't read and appreciate your thoughts .

Dragons' Breath #2 engine rebuild #31 - YouTube

gerald m

A bit of a update on the Dragon , I have been running around looking for a brake disc for a 02 Harley V Rod (That is what the aluminum mags are from ) and have found that the V Rod IMO is just a dam abortion with very few parts fitting from other Harley applications . Went to the Harley dealer in Saskatoon only to find that the rear brake discs are totally different from other applications , are order only with a month to month and a half waiting period . Also there are two different rear disc for the v rod and they couldn't guarantee that the one I got would be the proper one and I needed to pay before ordering . The price was not bad $158.00 plus taxes . Went to a machine shop to have one lazer cut from stainless and was stupid enough to tell the dude that I couldn't get one so he wanted $275.00 . Long story short I decided that seeing as I have made most of the parts myself why not make the brake disc and save myself all the bull **** . I will try to get a couple of pictures up at the same time as this boring little video of me cutting ( grinding the case hardened teeth off of a 72 tooth # 40 sprocket +

gerald m

Couple more weeks of playing and he should be ready for the spring run

Finally figured out the bracket and tensioner for the rear brake caliper . With the new #2 engine gonna have to hode on tight . 105 lbs compression all the way across and it still not ran and broke in all the seals so compression should be right at the top . now I will have night mares thinking if I got everything right inside . Went over everything many times to make sure me didn't screw up . Been thinking about adapting a stock air box to the bike instead of that dam cone filter I seriously think the cone filters are overrated and not worth a **** .Any ideas please feel free to comment ???

gerald m

86 13b natural ...Can't find anything related to the vacuum port on rear of LIM beside I assume the water outlet for a turbo application . It's not the line for the port actuators .The port is very close to the 5+6 port actuator and goes straight into the intake . Been a long time since I removed all the EXTRA fittings and can't remember what this vacuum port was hooked up to . the FSM's don't show this fitting as most pictures are taken from the drivers side of the engine compartment . Anyway this would explain why I had a lazy rear rotor , I have plugged it off with a short bolt with a copper washer but would like to know what it was for . Yea I know dumb *** right . It is right behind the aluminum mounting plate I made for the rear engine mounting and couldn't see it . Thank-you Gerald m.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

pictures would help but it sounds like the brake booster line which would cause a bit of a vacuum leak on that rear rotor.

gerald m

I think a bit of a vacuum leak is putting it mildly . I looked for that leak all last year sometimes I could even hear it if the throttle was just right . I'm guessing that is why the port sleeve sounded a tad gritty from time to time . When I started cleaning up things for the intake for reinstall I noticed the front port sleeve was clean like new and the rear was a little dirty not bad but enough to make me decide that something just wasn't right . I looked everywhere but it was hiding behind the aluminum mount plate . Now I will need to hold on with both hands . It's the bolt with the copper back up washer .

Thanks for your time Ben

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

yep, that port originally went to a hard line through a banjo bolt to feed vacuum to the brake booster.

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

I like the bike, pretty badass. Can't wait to see it when its finished.

Good luck

Rotary >Pistons

gerald m

Thanks = Any work worth mentioning , changes and upgrades is always posted in this thread . Almost done for this year just need to run hard lines for rear brake , upgrade the throttle assembly and possible the air filter setup . I would like to upgrade to a 100 HP nitrous kit as I have upgraded to RA classic apex seals for that reason .Haven't looked into it much, that's been on my mind for a year or more now .Will see how it preforms in the spring .

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

how is that mixture block for that 500 holley doing? while working on one i came across that same plate when looking for various jet sizes online.

gerald m

I like it .. Really all it does is give a infinite amount of settings for jetting without buying a can full of jets .. It can be used on a number of different size Holley carbs . It came with everything needed even an extension arm for the squirters ,longer bolts ,all the gaskets ,power valve plug . The jets in the stock carb are totally removed . Of course if it is a 4 barrel it would require 2 kits .

There are two different models, the only difference is which way the lever moves for rich or lean . If the engine was set up proper on a dyno and adjusted for exhaust gases I think it would help to pass emission tests and then open it back up for what ever people are doing . The idle side is unchanged and still needs to be adjusted with the air screws for a nice smooth idle just like always .

I'm willing to bet that I am the only one in Canada with one so even if it didn't work I would be keeping it and hang it on the wall

Some of the heavy ported engines that have a idle over 1200 to 1500 RPM or so would maybe load up a bit but that happens with stock Holley's also . last fall I idled the bike down to 1100 to 1200 and there was no secondary symptoms only when I had my idle 2500 or so it loaded up but anything would I think. So long as the squirter's are set up with a good healthy shot immediately on throttle plate movement ( NOT AFTER ) there is no lag at all .

The 500 if anything needs more air at 8000 plus but for sure there is no fuel shortage . I thought when I first installed the kit that it was suppose to be set up to adjust the lever as the throttle open but not so it is intended to be adjusted and left alone. the only negative thing that I could notice was at warp speed sometimes the lever would move from vibration but that could be controlled with something to keep the lever from moving .

The dude told me straight up he didn't know how it would work on a Rotary set up and has requested a few times for an update . Very nice straight up guy great to deal with told me if I didn't like it to just send it back no questions . and believe it or not still has not gave me a proper address for payment . I believe he has the patent on it ( not sure ) he did say that he spent a ton of money on engineering and is maybe using me as a bit of a trial guinea pig .

Yes I like it and saves tearing down the carb 10 times trying to get the right jet size . If you are interested just say and I will give you his address. he is in Arizona .

I am willing to bet that I am the only guy in Canada that has one ,for sure in west central

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

well i put together a 13B bridged/turbo engine for an old school REPU and a modded 500 2BBL was what he was supplied with, supposedly tuned and ready to go(already knew that was bogus, you can't tune a carb for a basic setup on a turbo engine without every little detail). i wound up drilling out the idle mixture jets in the mixture plate as large as they would go and it still wasn't quite enough(but it gets by, can fatten the AFR up to 12:1 now at least). dropped the power valve down to a 10.5 from the 6.5 and upped the main jets to 73(still not big enough once in boost). basically everything had to be fattened up all around.

seemed to be a lot of tweaking where i wonder if that mix plate would have made everything much easier to work around.

gerald m

A modded carb means so many different things by so many people .. I'm not a carb builder or anything my self but well Ben just My opinion and what I found while playing , the 500 is to small for that much air to travel through without creating a huge amount of air turbulence so of course the air fights its self and looses velocity , so it doesn't matter how much fuel you pour through the carb there just isn't enough air to make it burn and I don't think chewing the velocity tubes help enough although it does seem to help .

The 500 barely does the job on my 13b NA . I think a bit of time back I mentioned that I thought the 500 almost acted as a governor and starved the little engine for air at around 7500 RPM ,my tach only goes to 8000 but the needle gains much slower past that mark to pin that's with 5+6 port open ,closed around 7000 . It's hard to watch it because **** happens fast and it just kinda gets hard to see . I did check some charts and that is about the max RPM compared to air volume for my #1 engine . So I guess a long story shorter I think the 500 is just to small for what you are doing you need a mechanical 4 barrel type set up .

As far as would the kit help for fuel flow I'm sold on the kit , I wish I could afford to do more experiments . It's not a DAINTY way of feeding fuel to any engine but when you just wanna give er it's great for me anyway , but really sucks fuel the bike when I open it up as much as I dare I get about 1 mile per gallon , that's hard to figure to but I just know how much I pour in and how far I go .

The kit has a block off plug instead of the Power valve , I really don't think you can pour enough fuel through the power valves even the large is to small , the jets are totally removed and the plate is an extra piece , none of the plates are removed the kit one is added so the ( fuel rail ) the hollow rod going through is drilled into the the center tube so when the adjuster lever moves it aligns the holes and pours the fuel in . and like I mentioned the low jets remain unmolested and seem to set up real nice even with my huge vacuum leak on the rear rotor I could still change the engine tune with the air screws .

I think anyone could have an aggressive carbed cheap set up and with some electrical components ( people can do anything they can dream up with electronics now ) to adjust the fuel rail to match engine RPM and emissions , Vacuum and so on . You could have a mild conservative little engine for DD use and still have a ripper at the touch of the throttle . I guess basically it could be the next thing to fuel injection while still having a fairly simple carbed engine . One thing about the kit is if you decide you don't like it just remove ,replace all the stock parts and go.

For $150.00 we have all spent that much on lots of things what the hell it opens up a whole new world of thinking for the old school guys . you could also run a choke cable type thing to the lever and run the lever from the dash or what ever . With a car on the road cruising you should be able to get things leaned out nicely without doing any engine damage just by reading the exhaust temp and coolant temp . Enough said have a good one Gerald m.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i think we will see what this carb does with the blowthrough first, since that is what they sold him for it and what he got. he'll probably flip a whig if it winds up being too small but i never recommended it, although i have seen other shops sell them specifically for rotaries like on mazdatrix. i did figure they would send him a plugged up 650 double pumper, i winced when i saw the rather teeny 2 barrel.

if it does seem to hold up i will let him know about this particular mixture block if we run into issues tuning the jetting. I'm more used to the double pumpers which you have a little more control over low end versus top end. with the 2 barrel there is little leighway with the 2 mains and mixture block with press in jetting.

who knows, maybe i will just have him call the builders of the carb and have them tune it. i don't want to risk a newly built 1974 engine block, so if they blow it up i can wash my hands of it. i warranty my work but carb jetting isn't my forte(hence why i don't want to warranty a job i don't feel comfortable with). call me skeptical though since the truck was idling at 16-17:1 AFR on the full bridge with the default settings.. finding anyone worth their salt who does carb jetting seems to be real difficult to find, so i seem to be learning a lot as i go no matter how reluctant i am. nothing beats reaming the **** out of a brand new mixture block that no one locally carries, not having ever done it before.

gerald m

Well there's no doubt that the 500 will work, I just think it will starve at full warp on both air and fuel and will maybe run rich at lower and mid range and lean out close to the top . Me thinks with the 500 at low and mid range the little engine should really rip . You can buy Holley carbs with adjustable jets but they are upwards of 1000 bucks and I think there not really much different than the kit ends up doing . There is a dude in southern Saskatchewan that does super work on Holley's . A guy I know races the oval track with a 350 chev with a 500 and gets his work done buy this dude with no problems of fuel delivery but is very hard to talk to. He did offer me a new reworked 500 he keeps on the shelf for a back up to try but I never took him up on the offer . I will find out more about it when I see him at least find out what the guy does to them .

Keep me posted on this project I am curious on how things are going to turn out for you .