gerald m

If the power gains will be substantial , I can see the vapor lock problems going away , won't need to bother with a cold can , no more stinking fuel pump .
wondering about the 2 cycle mix and what would be needed to deal with this change in fuel , The to4 turbo is reasonable priced so that really is not a issue . I think the biggest challenge is in the building of a respectable set of header pipes . don't know how close or how far away to the exhaust ports the turbo can be ?? don't have a lot of room . I need the turbo in hand so I can decide where it will fit , when the old headers are gone there might be room right close and air delivery would also be a short trip from turbo to carb so there should be no or little problems with lag in that area if length of exhaust and air makes a difference .

I came across this http://www.ebay.com/itm/IMPCO-LPG-PROPANE-CARBURETOR-MIXER-HOLLEY-2-BARREL-/180355946613?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item29fe0d5875not sure if it will work they I think they do have different ones available . might be better than screwing with other stuff . I don't see fittings for water in the link you posted but if I understand things correct the water is for cold weather to make the LPG vaporize proper .

I can see the end costs to be much the same as a total engine rebuild , ( consumable parts ) so if it will make the beast breath harder ( like you said the dragon isn't even breathing hard yet ) so lets find out what it will do , If #2 blows up I still have #1 engine and he is solid and ready to have parts bolted on . If your up to it , I will need guidance all the reading in the world won't make up for experience , but me no scared .

bumpstart

that impco you link is bang on what i am talking about,,
the 200 ,, whilst flowing slightly less NA than the 225...
is ideal due to the right angle entry into the hat and has more inherent strength than the 225 design
( the 225 is aimed more at installs on ex EFI cars with side ways EFI throttle plate but they both use identical internal components and the differences in flow between them negated by fractionally more boost )

the convertor MUST have engine coolant routed for it..
the physics of changing that volume of liquid propane to gas propane makes things freeze,, fast ..
you must route the heater hose path through the convertor you choose

( the model L being intended for vertical install and the model E for horizontal.. the E having slightly better long term high flow capability )

if you search enough you will also find specialized propane liquid draw tanks built for motor cycles ( usually in asia ) though you must look carefully to see if it has or can be fitted with lockoff and flow valves from the auto equiv
( for the flow potential ... i expect most would be using auto equivs due to availability )

turbo manifold wise there is many off the shelf turbo manifolds
that ( if for FC ) would be very close to engine and can be found in variations suiting either the FC turbo.. t3.. or t4 divided,, or t4 undivided

or others suiting a further forward location ( suit earlier rx7 and rx4 etc )

or even avail just as flangeplates ,, so you can build your own
.. pretty sure there is a guy in poland on ebay churning out turbo flange plates at ridiculously cheap prices

.. use thickwall or steam bends..even schedule pipe turns if you have to
,, bending exhuast pipe will last only the shortest of time


the recent craze of many older V8 enthusiasts of hiding a turbo far down the exhaust stream
( note,, with a pump to get the oil back )
also proves a bit of a point,, as with turbos,, pretty much any location will work
... and its only the guys with 600 + Hp setups that really need to be concerned about the finer physics of pipe diameter, bends and location

the one tip

.. if fitting a turbo that requires an extra external wastegate to control boost ,,
then make the direction and angle of entry into the wastegate exit a priority that is equal or even over and above that of the turbo position
( just take care to make the pipe lengths out of both exhaust ports relatively even )

ie.. if you want to control boost well.. care taken to direct flow OUT of the wastegate is of a domineering importance over turbo location
,, which is going to work pretty much just fine,, wherever you stick it ,, as long as it gravity drains its oil well back to the sump

of consideration is the need to add an intercooler,
the need V space and complexity issues on a short run drag bike are up to debate ..

and it may infact be better to run sans intercooler directly from turbo compressor outlet directly into the 200 hat ,, with only a stub on the pipe to fit a throttle closed blow off valve that recircs back to aircleaner
( extremely necessary in this blow through setup )

but instead of air to air intercooling
.. do it directly with some form of simple water methanol injection directly into the compressor inlet

( the cooling effect will be better and more timely for your run than the intercooler can do
.. and the benefit is the lesser frontal drag than required by the intercooler and with a much simpler pipe layout
,, and the condensed water also has an effect on reducing detonation and is a big double bonus when used with LPG dry fuel )

PS
the OMP system provided on the engine will need to be restored,, even if you only run it fixed rate .. i have found that its a case of less is more.. as with LPG fuel ..there is no washing effect of dilution to the injected oil and i run mine at relatively normal rates

gerald m

seems to me the drive is still inside the engine for the omp of which I have 2 set ups , methanol injection which will be another learning curve , sounds much easier and better for this application .

lots of times guys won't ship to canada ( all the customs BS and tax I think ) .
but will check things .

T3-T4 divided or undivided means very little to me so i need to do more research on that, also on 6 port turbo I presume the ports are open or should they be controlled by boost pressure etc. I have played around with them but have never really used them .

water is no problem I simply blocked the nipples of with a small bolt with a length of rubber tube over it inserted into the hole and tighten washer and nut .

what is considered moderate boost ??? between 10 to 15 or less ,, can't seem to find a number related to moderate . Looks like maybe a good winter project winter lasting a minimum of 5 months here .

So it would seem I should start at the turbo and work my way to the throttle body picking up bits as I go , I want to buy parts that are readily available so replacement is not an issue .and again keeping things a simple as possible to allow work in the field . where ever the turbo ends up it will be a gravity drain .

bumpstart

google alternate fuels forum.. sign up
.. all the info you need about LPG / propane and more is in there
although you will need to understand little more than already what is happening on that scaled down forklift kit as my system is basically a larger 300 hp version with a turbo blowing into it,, and a vacuum/ boost pressure balance line from mixer to the convertor

raso enterprises is the admin there and i thinks is canadian
and at any rate the last impco LPG stuff i bought online came from canada too


//
for water injection,, google snow ..etc,, and look on this forum
.. you would need but the simplest single stage ( pressure switched ) setup and a tiny washer bottle tank

one method uses a pressure switch ,, very HP pump, a nozzle and a shutoff solenoid

the other popular method uses the boost pressure and air mixing to be in effect a very low pressure passive setup , though is more messy in hosing and costs more

and for maximum effect you will want it setup as pre turbo and would be running something like MW30 - MW50 blends ( 30 -50 % by weight mixtures )
( using methanol and water other than other iso alochols )

these kits are relatively minor issue to source and are ready to go off ebay

LPG tank wise.. be aware the forklift tank stuff may not be legal in some instance
( not sure about your competition rules but it often cant be used in an auto application cause it is not collision rated , country depending )
and barring legalities or lack of even a small forklift cylinder then a BBQ cylinder could work upside down and angled to work with the G force for liquid pickup
( as its normally drawing vapour when upright and our system needs to draw liquid down at least a 1/4 pipe )

.. but as above i would look long at hard at properly dedicated bike and scooter tanks first
investigate your bottle options carefully ..
go see a propane shop or talk to franz online ..

also price up the model L .. the 200 and throttle baseplate,, but you will find some good deals on ebay and BTW.. repro stuff is usually pretty good

.impco mixer stuff will bolt on and work off the shelf
.. not much needs to be done to tweak it,, aware that FB designated versions have a richer jetting setup but it isnt really necessary
the only component i would add is called impco VPV ( vacuum power valve )
which is essentially the throttle pump shot needed on a larger engine with big throttles
[ i run my own version made from a solenoid and driven by my ecu,, but it could just as easily be driven by a hobbs pressure switch ]

.. the trickiest and most immediate mission for a drag bike is finding .. and mounting this tank right
..aware its unbaffled and its a liquid pickup ..


the turbo is done and dusted here a million times over
you will find t04 divided footprint is best for response but a pain to integrate a wastegate for .
. and may limit rear turbine housing choices

going with the open collector t04 shape is possibly more prudent as gives a 'universal' footprint that allows you to easily select from many brands of turbo

and at the same time makes easy use of a single wastegate

your setup will be more or less capped at 300-350 hp due to the single tank outlet and single convertor
and so you wont need to look at anything fancier than the older ( and cheaper ) to4bs and ta34 designs with the 52- 56 mm compressors
-at or around 1 bar ( 14.7 psi ) of boost -

( happily these older to4b designs are the agricultural ones you can trip over , be aware the E and later designs usually are less efficient below 1 bar than the B series )

while fancy stuff like GT35 and new borg warners will make more power
,, and possibly earlier..
- but at greater cost and then over overpowering the fuel system,, the ignition ,, and quite possibly the belt drive system



for reasons of compression,, lack of retard,, and fine tuning stuff like the ignition timing and the water nozzle and trip point
then it will be wise to start at mild boost around 10-12 psi before pushing towards 15 and more when things prove happy
....this means a well positioned external wastegate 48 - 60 mm big...

6 ports ( all open ) and the 9.4 compression and LPG [ but with 225 impco ] with 54 mm compressor turbo i have done a couple of times now

--and it is powerful and reliable , far cheaper and simpler than building up any
efi system ,, much smoother and more forgiving than any petrol blow throw carb ( and most efi rx7 's too )
and done with your ignition setup ,, although mine has evolved full circle back to ECU

i built up a b2000 ute with a similar setup and turbo and its still beating around somewhere at 15 psi ,, also daily,, like my rx7

gerald m

Ok starting to get a list together of what I THINK I might need I will post before I order anything so I know I am getting the right parts . Decided I don't want to use any used stuff so it will be all new what ever is decided upon .

This might be a tad premature but I contacted a Mike Sorensen by Regina SK. he does high powered v twins and very little else , Mike has one of a very few dyno's in this part of the country . He told me he would be happy to test it when ever it is ready . He only runs to 285 BHP being as he only does bikes . anyway that is a long time off , just wanted to see if he would go for it .

anyone wanting Harley engine mainly S+S work done for max power he is the man to see , builds his own pistons and all .

gerald m

Why couldn't a couple bottles for nitrous be used ?? they are made to hold over 1000 lbs pressure and propane is what 200 max . I;ve seen lots of nitrous bottles on bikes so they must be legal ...

Was thinking maybe could fill the nitrous bottles with a 25 lb propane tank .

bumpstart

as long as they have liquid pickups and and can be fitted with a standard electric lockoff and an excess flow lockoff / filler combo then i cannot see much issue beyond the ullage required

( methinks you could get around the need for a vacuum or ignition lockoff controller with a lawnmower type dead mans switch in the seat and a bypass switch on the handle bars so you can idle it up and get off the seat when required )

this would be a very safe setup that will shutoff in a drama and you can rule out the bike ever spilling petrol on you in an accident
( most auto type LPG tanks are MUCH stronger than a petrol tank in terms of collision safety and have controlled vent valves in case of overheat )

the motor ( at power ) will consume it at a rate 1.3 -1.5 times that of petrol
( though the LP gas is much more tolerant of leaner mixtures ranges and can be run much more economically at part throttles )
can only be filled to 80 %
,, and its dangerous to rely on the last 20% in the tank under power as its prone to surge away from pickups

ie.. your going to need a tank around 10 L
.. and refilling // equalizing with an appropriate transfer tube is from a larger cylinder is fine if you are aware what you are doing

the gas itself is relatively safe when you compare with petrol
though precautions are taken due to pressures involved
and that the carb system itself works at just under atmosheric ( in a turbo application ,, guage ) pressure and requires pressure drop to pull it in


so i would think that you will need at least 10 L to make a couple of runs
( indecently i thinks you can get a stripe colour change indicator for the tank for quick see )

again,, points at ATV and scooter and motorcycle kits made in itally and china and india ,, some of them for panier and front saddle application and being nearly ideal
( was looking at some links very recently )

these questions you should launch onto that propane subforum on the alternative fuels i linked as there is guys there that will be able to link you perhaps to appropriate products
and if there is ebay drama to canada it also links you to a pool of like minded people he may be willing to purchase and ship on your behalf

gerald m

yes I have been to alternative fuels joined , just feeling my way around so far . Personally I'm not concerned about what kind of tank I use for me it's just to keep the rest of the world happy if that's possible . ( It has crossed my mind more than once to get the Dragon ready for the 1/4 mile not that I would beat anyone but it would be quite a rush for this old dude ..

I have looked at many header set ups for the bike and I think I will need to build my own from flanges that are available , I don't think there is anything out there that will fit the space I have , there are some with reasonable price out there maybe it would be easiest to buy one and adjust it to fit rather than chasing each part that I would need .

So i guess the t4 oil cooled i really don't want to muck about with water cooling , I think for the short runs it will be fine , What I can't seem to find out is weather the turbo's with internal waste gates are larger in size compared to other . and which is best for me .

When I get the turbo end close to done then I will get the LPG end ordered . and carry on .. good think we don't have a tight budget ..

I need to get the little 12a stuck back together ,, just to keep from loosing parts . before I bring the dragon in and get him ready for the refab

bumpstart

to keep the boost sane we need to bypass more flow and heat than a piston engine = larger wastegate required than provided on most turbos off the shelf

so all the internal gate ones will be on the small side
\
a s5 rx7 turbo or hybrid turbo is close but has its limits around there and is a unique flange pattern and limits choices later

im thinking maybe squint around for a complete rx7 to4 package and rejig it so the turbo sits where you want it

im also thinking that the turbo should come last ,, and the LPG system on the holley baseplate will sub onto the dragon easily,, even if you hang the tank and convertor off a wooden board alongside and test it in NA mode prior to fitting it all into the dragon

the turbo and water injection system is just staged add ons around this, one step at a time

bumpstart

and PS,, the dead mans switch is a nice idea to cut the bike if you get pulled off the bike if you happen to sit up during the pass

oh.. if you cant find water seal kit for a TD engine then i was going to suggest you get some viton 2.4 and 2.0 mm round chord and seal the ends with a dab of super glue and bed that section above the inlet port with a dab of rtv

gerald m

Your the engineer I just the monkey . if you want to do LPG first that fine with me ,, and yes I see where you are coming from do lpg then turbo and then injection .

I figured the internal waste gate would not be right I talked to a few people and they couldn't understand why I doing , what I doing with so much power and still want more so IMO people like that although possible very up on things , I don't need negative input ..

Actually for the little td engine I just want to assemble it so I don't loose parts ., I know what that like , could put it in a safe and when opened something would have gone amis . to hard to find good parts for that little dude to start looking for stuff that I have already had . Yea the coolant seals that come in the kits are IMO crappy the kit I got for the #2 engine were very poor looking ( just the coolant seals , bent and out of shape ) took a lot of working to get them to fit proper .

I use to build all my own seals for the Detroit Diesel engines , they have many O ring seals . also large hyd cylinders that were hard to remove . Use to cut the seal on a large angle so there was more surface to stick the little buggers together . never had one fail . the hyd ones lasted between 6- 12 months depending on how hard of work the machines were doing but was still a quick fix and got the machines back in operation in short order right in the field . The thing I didn't know was the OD size of the ring seals in the TD . thanks for that . I think Ben ( rotary evolution ) makes all his own seals also .he mentioned a while back to get in touch with him for length etc.

Thanks Bumpstart ,,,, always looking forward never back .. have a good one .

The dead mans switch ( I don't like that name ) will be incorporated somehow , somewhere to cut things if the dragon goes down , next year I think I will run with a helmet also , it's a pretty rough run to say the least . now with the extras it will be much more fun .

bumpstart

my main concern is some components of the gas system make take up the space where your unusually large ***** may be hanging

gerald m

HUMMM I suppose now instead of worrying about vapor lock it will be frost bite on the boys .!!

I'd go down in a hole and fight the devil with a bucket of water ,,It's women that scares the hell out of me , they're mean especially the small skinny ones . honest they can rip your eyes out in one swipe and then tell you hurry up were going to be late A hole .. Now what the hell is with that ? I'll take my chances with the Dragon thanks

I can't explain why I am driven to do things like this ( A life long affliction ) . What the heck makes you guys wrestle crocodiles . It's kinda the same you start out with a little croc and slowly work your way up to the hungry grandpa ones right .

We all have our chickens , never get me on a roller coaster either .

chainreaction

Check out rv lp tanks. Here's a good resource to start with. PPL is a store front outlet for one of the largest RV parts distributors in the US. You would also want to make sure you a find "hi-flo" pig-tail hose to connect the tank to your regulator. The inside diameter is larger than a standard hose to allow more liquid/vapor flow. Standard flow is used to feed appliances, hi-flo is used to feed a larger generator. An industry rule of thumb is that a 5000 watt generator will consume Lp at the rate of 1 gallon per hour at 70% load. You would use quite a bit more and depending on tank size may need to have means of refilling a tank at the races, maybe just a spare tank and a transfer hose... a 30# tank would give you 4.7 gallons.

LP Gas Tanks on Sale - PPL Motor Homes

gerald m

Hey Darryl good to hear from you ,, should stop by more often .

Thanks for the input always appreciated , Yea I think me needs maybe two tanks . I do want to do it up so maybe some day if the opportunity comes up I could give it a shot on the pavement , just for fun . now that your here have you ever had any luck running the vs drives at warp speed for a extended period of time . 10 - 15 seconds ..

I guess you are up on what me and Bumpstart are up to here , I am looking forward to it , I think it will be a nice RELIABLE system when finished .

I hear rumors in the wind that there is a fellow in saskatoon that is working on a bike for the Andersonville run at Young so it will be nice to actually have another modified bike to go up against . The more the merrier I say .

By the way how did you make out with the little engine that blew up in the sand car ?? I considered nitrous but unless everything is perfect every time All the time it just seems so destructive . Have a good one .

chainreaction

Hi Gerald,
I have been quietly following what you two have been scheming about here...
I think tank size and position is going to be your biggest challenge! They are not light either so your adding weight along with your power potential.

I came to the conclusion based on everyone's feedback that I had a bad water seal on the front rotor. Everything ran really good till I topped off the water! I parked it so we could focus on finishing up the changes to my sons sno-mo-quad. That thing is a beast and is going to be a blast to run. Similar power to my 12a but less than half the weight!

Sand Drag Central • View topic - snomoquad sprocket

gerald m

Water seals yea , At least once a week I read a thread about water seals . In the future I will be making my own seals , the last set for #2 engine was really poor bent out of shape and kinked in several places .

Couple VS drive questions , now my secondary is a TEAM clutch with a double Helix . should I be running the one with the most pitch or one with the least pitch for the most aggressive up ramp . and second at the races last fall the bike kept accelerating for a short period after throttle off . In your opinion is that just the nature of the system or is there something I can do with it . I was very happy with belt performance , same belt for all races and still pretty nice . I suppose just the rolling mass of the clutch and belt would keep it on for a second ..

chainreaction

Gerald, Did I send you the word document I have on clutch tuning? If not send me an email at darryltrafford@roadrunner.com and I will forward it.
To be honest I have never had to mess with the helix or springs. We have a top notch snowmobile racer that runs with us that set up my clutches for me the first time and all I had to do was play with the weights to fine tune it.
The acceleration after lifting is the clutch shifting up. Mine does the same thing. That can suck when you are bracket racing and try to lift a little to make sure you don't break-out! been there, broke out.....
I tend to feather off the throttle at the end of the track to prevent that, plus if I don't, it will subsequently back shift so hard it will stop me before I get anywhere near the end of the shutdown. It will stop from 75 mph in around 400' without the brakes, just from the back shift of the clutch.

Everyone I talk to says a team clutch is the way to go. Your starting with a factory tweaked race clutch.

gerald m

Yes you sent me the info just cant seem to find it but I will , not that long ago I went through part of it . probably just put in another file .

I know exactly what you mean by downshifting I need to feather it also , it's kinda ok when you get use to it but the first few times if it would have been any more aggressive the rear wheel would have been skidding .

When I shut the dragon down at the end of the run he's just starting to stretch his legs out and building energy like crazy hard to explain what it feels like but you know don't ya . can't imagine what he will be like when the conversion is done ) .

Yea the team clutch is GOOD ,very tough . the first secondary was Polaris and he just ripped it's guts out and blew it up , never did find the pieces all that was left was the hub on the shaft and a couple fuzzies of belt . SHIELDS ARE GOOD !! keep em in place and live to play another day ..

Hope your son does well with the little bike . their wild little dudes . good luck

gerald m

Been in touch with a dealer for impco he stated that the 200 and E or L reg is not capable of 300 HP range .. He suggested that possibly mod's have been done to achieve this range and was wondering what they might be.

I suggested possibly that the system is underrated and peoples just don't realize it .. Is there something I can tell this dude to bring him up to date . He is being very helpful although maybe just covering his own butt . Possibly not taking into account the turbo set up will follow although I did mention it

He did mention maybe a 200D or 200T instead of the 200M

I for sure am not doubting what you say Just trying to get my old head around this so I fully understand what I am doing before I do . He also suggested the electric shut off with mercury tip switch opposed to the vac one so he's pretty much on line there .

gerald m

while I waiting for the LPG equipment to get sorted out and priced decided to get a new rad for the bike , the old one was poor to say the least and also had poor cooling with the two fans the smaller one being reversed .Yonaka Honda CIVIC Aluminum Performance Radiator W FAN Shroud Manual Trans | eBay It's pretty good price for a lower end custom rad , I thinks the shroud and high volume fan will make the cooling system happy . for that price I couldn't resist trying one . More mounts to build , but this time there will be directional plenums front and rear of the rad to direct the exit air out the sides instead of straight back onto the engine and components and also draw air from the sides instead of directly behind the front wheel . Even has a brass drain instead of the plastic crap .

I have sent an email to the canadian company that makes different sizes and shapes of LPG tanks so I will see what happens there but am not going to let the tank thing hold the project up .

Me thinks I will end up with a remote starting battery I have 4 huge 6 volt guys from a electric fork lift , two of them hooked up 12 V cart would last all year and just a small one to maintain electronics. That would give me more room for headers ,turbo and piping . If I can keep things in tight the piping will be short and compact . Just a thought but that is probably what will happen .

Should have some pricing by tomorrow Bumpstart . will post before I buy in case we need things I haven't included ..

gerald m

Got the old OMP and cleaned it up can I get away with using the two injectors that go into the keg and block the other two fittings at the pump or do they need to be maybe tee'ed together so the omp doesn't get over worked or will it just bypass ?

Seeing as the propane system needs to be hot would it be acceptable to mount the reg under my intake maybe on the EGR valve bolts and seeing as there should be no restriction use the coolant by pass hose to heat the reg. ? seeing as it is the quickest to get warm and is probably the hottest supply when engine is warm . The reg. should also do a good job of helping keep the keg cooler .. any thoughts.

Rad is in transit and should be here the middle of next week

gerald m

The double pass rad came in yesterday free delivery to my door by purolator only took a week from Ottawa ( YONAKA MOTORSPORTS ) they mostly only deal in honda mod stuff .

My propane parts are order from Calgary PROQUIP SALES INC. 1- 866-692 8132 ( A member from Alternative fuels forum said he is affiliated with them but doesn't want to promote his business because he is a forum member and don't want people to think he is only there to sell products .I wouldn't be surprised if he is the owner ) set me up with the number and name of the guy at the order desk ,, should be about a week . They are actually a supplier so I am lucky they even took the time to help me . Thank-you Randy for getting me in the door .

Model 200 mixer with 2 barrel Holley base.
Model e regulator with fittings and vapor hose.
Electric cutoff solenoid.
As soon as I get this stuff mounted I will see about the rest of the line from tank to reg and tank fittings .

Thanks Bumpstsrt for the good hints as you like to call them there is always a huge learning curve to your so called hints which I appreciate more than just having everything put on the plate . Now the fun starts .

gerald m

Just a very short video showing propane conversion parts ..

bumpstart

excellent ,, thinks that model E is a bit big for back of the inlet manifold .. it should be mounted flat but i expect it can also run vertical if it runs dish rack style north south along the chassis
( so that acceleration does not effect the movement of the internals ) ... is there any reason you cant use the OMP injectors both on the block and the inlet manifold?

if you have restrictions to only two , choose the direct injection on the housing .and just blind the end two bolts and turn the rate up