gerald m

Yea I might mount vertical but would like to try find a spot where it will be comfortable .,, I could also mount on the deck just in front of the rear wheel where the battery mounts but I need most of that space or more for the turbo end of things ..

I have went through the oil injectors that I have and after a good bath in brake cleaner they seem to function proper , so the answer is no I have no reason to run only 2 , I will take one of my OMP's and take it apart and make sure every thing is clean . I can feel it about half movement on the arm that it has a spot where it must be turning on the secondary set ,.. ( just a little resistance .. ) so I take it the top fittings on the injectors just need to be plugged off to keep clean .

I see what you mean but the Impco reg , every orifice on the thing has good plain marking what everything is for , might not matter for the more experienced people but for a green guy like myself I feel that it is worth a few extra bucks to prevent second guessing which I seem to be . ( It seems I am always more concerned about where I;ve been rather than where I going.

I have a feeling that when everything is said and done it will be a very nice smooth system .. I have done some snoops for a rear slick and what I need to do , to run the paved 1/4 mile . Really I not that far from being good to go there .

bumpstart

maybe try the convertor sitting on bracket on top of engine ,, and have the 200 turned the other way ( pointing back at driver ) for shortest path for both vapour and inlet tract

gerald m

Yup that is the direction I heading for it was just sitting there before . if I can get it done the vapor hose will be only 6 or 8 inches maybe less . there are bolt holes in the housings , I think for the rats nest etc. I think I will build a short tower bolt it to the keg and mount the reg on that . There is room for all it just takes a bit of lookin and thinkin , It looks like it can be set up any direction I just need to change the throttle stop to the other side so the innie doesn't get in the way . I will do a bit of a mock up and post another short vid .

gerald m

This seems to be the way it wants to nest . Just need to trim the plate to open up as much as possible and grind the top of the angle bracket to make it sit level but I like it there , never get ripped off or banged around .

I don't think I will use the by pass hose it would be choking the flow . I will draw from the I guess it was one of the heater hoses . ( just down from the oil filter and go in where the temp sending unit was ).

The liquid LPG line can come straight up the rear of engine there is room between the aluminum rear mount and the engine so it should be reasonably isolated . I can build a simple guard if need .

Getting to be a lot of aluminum on the bike , darn shinny takes to much time to clean and it looks like hell dirty . I wonder if that nice round widow lady across the street on the corner likes shinny .

The mixer sits a tad lower than the 500 but then that stupid filter is gone . now I guess find some places to mount different small stuff .

bumpstart

coming together,, and you are starting to see that compared to all the fruit to take you EFI..then with propane the impco mixer / convertor is a brutally simple layout and almost slots in

gerald m

It's been my goal right from the get go to keep the bike as simple as possible that is why I removed all the STUFF from the little engine to start with , No way would I go EFI not that it's a bad thing but not for me with what I'm doing besides I like things that are just a tad different than every body else , but then you probably never noticed , and after all the fuel delivery problems when you hinted propane , It didn't take long to digest the idea .

We already have a winner now we can set the pace in comfort heck we didn't even use the 6 ports , Dam I wish I had some good footage of the races last august ,,

I don't think that it will rip the guts out of the belt drive me thinks it will have a 50 ft rooster instead of a 25 footer . that's why I don't want the tank or tanks behind my seat they would have a tendency to make the front of the bike lift and well it's well not really on the ground all the time now , in reality they should be hung on the frame in front of the engine , they could even point up don't matter to me then it would only be 1,5 ft to the reg . I just went and did a look I could run two of my black tanks on the double part of the frame in the front . I took a quick pic I like the down better than up ,, wondering if the fan heat will bother the tanks if they are hung there , guess I could build a guard any thoughts .

bumpstart

guard yes ( against the bike sliding on them ), heat ,, no issue , my tank has a muffler adjacent each end , is closer to the road,, and this week has been 40 C all week

the only effect the sundry heat on the bottle temps has is increases the amount of pressure avail slightly, but mostly effects the tank level indication

though thinks nitrous bottle warmer blankets would help if it was sub 5 C
( only really required until coolant flow happens )

bumpstart

PS,, running dual front saddle bag tanks? one propane.. one water/methanol??

might need to ballast the propane side a little bit ( or only part fill the water tank )
but i expect that is the safest , shortest place,, and also complements your weight distribution under take off

bumpstart

and you need to run the coolant out of the block at the heater snub under the oil filter ,, and return it to the bottom end tank on the radiator ( should have a heater inlet there already maybe on bottom outlet )

the coolant that exits the convertor is cooler than when it went in
as it has been chilled by latent heat of vaporization by the liquid propane/ LPG boiling to vapour

hence the gas that enters along the vapour line is somewhere ( theoretically ) 5 - 90 C , depending on how hot the coolant is,, and how much fuel you draw
( so LPG vapour has no cooling effect on the engine inlet charge
,, nor on the chamber temps as chamber wall quench does not occur as it already changed to gas phase )

and hence richer than stoic can run the engine warmer,, and have larger effect upwards on exhaust gas temps

for all this you are rewarded with higher octane ( and especially so if you can find HD5 ( pure propane ) fuel )
.. and very homogenous fuel mixture distribution
( which brings you a couple of surprising boons,, a tolerance of leaner mixtures under load than the norm ,, and much better low down TQ,, despite the perceived pressure drop of the mixer [ not much of a drop when you compare that to a cheap tube fin intercooler upstream ]

you will read that ( on paper ) you have to run about 1.3 L to every litre of petrol you would have run at WOT

but it is not strickly true when you consider yours makes best power ( safely ) at just under 14:1 ,, still very cleanly ( NOX isnt a concern on a large chamber volume long stroke engine like a rotary )

whilst the EFI 98 octane petrol engine will be in the low 12 or 11:1 range at same boost to keep power,,chamber and exhaust temps ( and detonation threshold ) comparable


all this.. makes tuning a breeze,, its a very tolerant fuel,, likes a wider rage of lean mixtures just needs a good ignition system when things are rich

, if it wont run, sounds like no spark.. it is flooded ( with a dry gas ,, just turn off the fuel solenoid till it fires )

gerald m

one LPG and one water -m will be fine with me just trying to keep things balanced , Yea I couldn't remember where the other heater hose went I will just need to incorporate a short piece of steel line with a prong welded on for heater hose . I actually have a new connector for the 5/8 heater hose that will weld in nicely .

It only takes like 3 or 4 minutes of run time to warm the little dude up and I always run it for a bit before beating on it . i will be running a temp guage in the spring as well as volt meter , guess I need to look for a boost gauge also ,,so I will just leave it warm until it reaches a predetermined temp . the bottles I may find a heater around someplace we see how it goes .

I have sourced some viton cord in Saskatoon but I thinks it will be cheaper to buy somewhere else and a lot more length . waiting for response from a California company that sells bulk .I think a much better price . but for the little bit I need for this project I will buy locally from a hydraulic shop . I already talked to the dude he said he would be happy to help me get some 1/16 cord for the omp ends I could use something else for that but I want to try the cord first ..

I have a pretty healthy spark , it for sure has taught me to keep out of there when it is running .
You ever get the feeling your being watched !!

gerald m

just a short video showing where most of the larger parts will be mounted .

gerald m

HOPE EVERYONE HAS A HEALTH NEW YEAR

The only reliable and adjustable oil control I could come up with was to order a new throttle control with a double pull twin cable assembly ( the one I want to get has a thumb control and also it can be used as a typical twist throttle ). So one cable will be used for the throttle operation and the other I will run down to the OMP just like the stock rod was ( the engine ,, and jack shaft mount is in the way for the rod , things are just to tight , that way I can adjust it for what ever position I set it to start to ramp up for volume or maybe even have it so it is giving a little extra even at idle , Ordered some injector line 10 ft. @ 1.60 per ft. .. Good for some ridiculous thing like 500 F at 1100 Lbs. burst pressure .

also had to modify the OMP control lever as it would hit the mount so I just cut 1/4 inch out of it and just welded it back together it now has about 1/8 inch clearance .

Cut more out of the intake mouth so it would match the new propane mixer and beveled all the straight edges to help with air flow , think the new isolator will also need to be tuned a tad here and there .

I really don't care for the metal intake gaskets , Me thinks it would be better with a composite material but there must be a reason they done that , Maybe I will just buy some material and make my own .

I turned the engine over a bit to check the apex seals and they seem fine , nice strong spring tension right across the board .

Have a good one ...

bumpstart

OMP wise i have used the cable from a bike handbrake , run from the throttle lever at one end and a return spring at the control lever on the OMP pump at other end

cutting the outer sheath short ..with enough pull length spare.. and mounting the sheath to a bracket off the water pump stud

...simple .. works ...

for minimum stop adjuster you will find some OMPS have a screw and nut on the control lever to prevent i going all the way closed
i would wind it on about 1/4 to 1/3 always open position , and leave slack in the bike cable so it imposes no artificial limit on the throttle lever stroke

-simple enough to add one , swap one,, or make one .. if you dont have it on this pump-

PS.. engine looks clean ( and lean ! ) when you run LPG .. it will run extremely clean .. when you run the water injection.. it will run even cleaner !!

when you take my turbo off.. the turbine is white..

gerald m

Yea also I thinks if I put a nice little light spring between the arm and the cable end with a tiny washer it will always pull the extra cable back through and can still be used to take up the extra cable movement , it can compress the spring instead of bottoming out and restricting throttle movement at WOT. it took 2 pretty good springs on the Holley in two different places to make it return to idle properly . ( In all honesty the Holley needed 2 springs to bring it down from wot I remember the first few times I ran it the darn thing was fine until about half throttle or so then you could feel it get less spring resistance pretty soon it was like a galloping detroit with a broken governor gear , might slow down ,might not ) it liked being wide open . so the second spring started to work about 1/3 to full and no more problems , so after that a small spring at the end of the throw will barely be felt

so for the omp adjuster it should maybe be set just a tad before the secondaries start to pump .

between the propane and the 15-40 HD oil the inside should be as clean as grandmas curtains .

thinking about a nitrous bottle valve for fuel I could buy one with a high flow electric valve in the bottle neck , if the bottle ever got ripped of the bottle would shut it's self off as soon as the valve looses power . just a thought . probably stay with what I was doing . Randy also mentioned at alt. fuel that there is some type of fill valve like that for propane also .

By the time everything is said and done we should have 1 hp for every 1.5 pounds of machine .

bumpstart

just saw your PM on other site and replied.. . sorry bit slow off the mark this time of year

i would like to see the tanks this JRS guy uses on his projects and see if they are liquid systems with all the safety fruit and filler

gerald m

JRS seems to be a hard dude to get in touch with sent him a couple PM's in the last couple weeks ,one email this morning . He hasn't been on alt fuel since Dec. 3
I just asked him if he could post a couple pics of his available tanks and what they are intended for . the way I understood him he has a composite tank that the plastic cover can be removed but I think they are still the barbecue style shape .

I can change the position of the lock off nothing is written in stone . there not much room up front anymore still need oil cooler somewhere, coils, ignition, but I maybe can mount somewhere close to tank . If I mount right on liquid valve it will need to be unplugged every time I change or fill bottle . unless I can fill bottle without removing from bike but that seems a tad dangerous .. I keep thinking everything has a bracket on it but guess the lock off could just be inline where the fitting to tank is located .. and just wrap it with a spiral wire loom to contain wiring ...

I really lousy at making wiring harness , no problem with figuring where things need to be but to encase them and make them look like something is another thing .. by the time I get done the dam things look like a spider web , guess I just to cheap with the wire .

bumpstart

should be able to fill the bottle on the bike via the filler point and syphon equalize from another bottle using appropriate hoses from a BBQ bottle upside down ( or a forklift cylinder )

wiring wise.. leave it till last and most relays and the safety control circuit can be hidden in a larger plastic box mounted where-ever you like,, and a couple of runs of 8 strand trailer wiring should be enough wires to encompass all tasks

gerald m

That is just what I want to do there are all kinds of fittings out there to go from pretty much anything .. Now your on the subject == lets say for example if I have a 5 L. tank and fill it with a 50 L. tank what is the ratio of fill ?? will I be able to fill 10 times from that 50 L tank or does it loose volume at a different rate .. by fill I guess I mean 80% or so .. I have asked this question at different sites and have gotten somewhat of a different answer each time .. so here is your chance to put the flavor in the soup .,, I believe that it will exchange volume until the the pressure the same in both tanks at all times when filling ..
but when filling and venting at the same time I think with a little practice it will become easy to maintain a volume expansion safety factor ,,..
the bottle if it is pinned and clamped with a nice band clamp it could slide to hell and back especially when it wouldn't touch the ground anyway . I think I could go 1 " bigger diameter than what I have that would add couple more L.
My tank isn't that big when you consider it cant go empty either . I think a couple of the stick - on level gauges could help .

bumpstart

very curly question , not sure i have it right , best ask this one on the LPG forum !

what clouds the issue for most minds is the containers not being equal volume

i suppose if your fork bottle is fuller than the mostly empty bike bottle then transfer will happen

and the pressure will eventually equalize between both vessels..

## at this point vapour space % above the liquid will be the same on both bottles ##


so if you take a 60 L tank, 80 % filled.. that is 48 litres of LPG
and you have an empty 6 L tank on the bike, which is 4.8L at 80% max fill
and so the volume ratio between the bottles is 1: 10

since you also cant vent ( well safetly ) and dont have a compressor

then im betting you get down to 10L in the fork bottle but only get 1L into the bike bottle ,, which will possibly cut out the bike at 1/2 run ( provided a short idle time )

in reality though,, it will be more like 3 L required to keep vapour and liquid separate in the bike vessel

.. and this means 30 L still left in the master bottle .. so methinks that works out to be 48-30 = 18 L usable on the bike from that equation

18/ 4.8 = roughly four recharges of a 6 L bike bottle

i think if i have that right then it is arguing you possibly need to look at a 10L tank to get more out of the recharges and safely have a run or two in the bike
( 5:1 volume ratio would drag the fork bottle down to 15L ,, making 31 + litres avail in larger recharges , almost 4 at 8L )

gerald m

curly question alright I don't think the search button will do me much good here . well that's the best answer i have came up with ( I ask this at the alt . forum ) we'll see what happen . with that

Kinda why I'm asking is I think I need to move my meth bottle position seeing as it can be anywhere it really don.t matter and put another LPG on the right side same as the left one .
If I get things plumed in proper with a T on the reg line I should be able to fill both tanks from the same fill valve without removing any lines . ( filling tanks is not on my fun list so the fewer times I do it the better it will be ).

gerald m

So I have the SV mounted in the hole that was marked out in the directions . the Holley base plate has two ports available , looks like one above and one below the throttle plate , I need the upper port to run the vacuum advance (which by the way is capable of about 50% advance before it hits the blocking pin )and probably should not be contaminated with LP vapor anyway . Read a couple dozen threads in different forums and both top and bottom ports have been used without much concern either way . I think top for dist. and bottom for SV valve ( seeing as the throttle will need to be pretty much wide open to activate the SV valve it might not make much difference ) . It your design Bumpstart it's your call ,, any thoughts ???

I ordered two new 3000 lbs test tanks so we should be back in the 8-9 L. capacity also ordered new valves that will be modified to draw from close to the bottom of the tank with tanks upright along the frame and will use the spitter to determine how full they are and will be filled on the bike from a remote tank ,..

The remote tank will be from my older motor home , a saddle tank that ran the fridge ,stove , furnace , and demand water heater . They never need to be re certified so I will just strap in to a deck and have it in the back of my towing vehicle . It has all the bells and whistles on it including gauge so it should serve well . Don't know the size just remember it took 100 bucks to fill it .

Still haven't decided on what kind of tether switch to use to control lock off but I guess that will come .

bumpstart

for tether switch im thinking a lawn mower seat switch combined with an electronic ignition pulse safety switch
( avail at most LPG suppliers,, it give you a 5 sec timeout where it will enable solenoids but close them if it hasnt seen an ignition pulse )

if either switch is opened it should kill power to the safety solenoids and lockoffs


for the SV.. it usually routes between TB and mixer.. ( on 200 and 225 there is a few more nipples provided though they may have a blind screw in them ATM )
and so shortcuts vapour there for cranking ( and if used as a power valve,, during WOT )

the vac advance must go to "purge air" port on the TB .. so it sees no vacuum at idle,, and lots at off idle

if the holley TB lacks this provision,, then the vac advance is probs best left off
( im sure the holley TB should have the correct vac port.. though we really only need it if we move to a boost retard dizzy ,, and im pretty confident at low boosts we dont need any retard with the 100+ octane fuel )
im expecting to set this dizzy up so at 4000 rpm it is seeing full mech advance and is around 25 BTDC,, with current dizzy mods i expect that gives the motor around 15 degrees give take a few at idle .. and so will be fairly ball park until higher boosts demand less timing

gerald m

I will call Trevor in Calgary tomorrow and see if he can fix me up with the ignition pulse safety switch , there are dealers in Saskatoon but never seem to have any stock . picked up three different type micro switches to control SV from throttle position . couple of them have a roller on the arm to help make a smooth transition . Mostly now just need to get aluminum tanks threaded and polished . bought new ignition modules for the rewire I think the old ones are fine but we use new . Also been thinking on couple of nice coils but I will see how the old ones preform .

Is there a template available somewhere for pulley timing degrees .???

On a side note I went to the Dinsmore Hutterite colony to get some snowblower flighting made and the head dude there in the metal shop built a pipe bender straight from hell , does a beautiful job on stainless steel pipe of any size up to 2.5 inch , he told me he would make me anything I need ,he just needs a pattern so I will make a mockup from exhaust pipe and take it to him when the time comes , he can make me a waste gate also if he knows what I need . He told me it won't cost to much but it needs to be cash and him and his helper like beer . that will save me a lot of hair pulling .

so when I get the propane wrapped up which will be a while yet do we need to tune or can we go straight to the turbo ??

gerald m

Anything that remotely resembled the switch is 3 to 4 weeks away .. I did order a vacuum cut off if that will help us probably not ..

I have a couple concerns with the seat switch , To ride the dragon successfully a good portion of the body weight is on the foot pegs , sometimes all depending on the terrain and I feel the switch will get uneven control and die prematurely . I really would prefer a tether that is like a switch with two parts one part hooks to handle bar or what ever and the other part attaches to the rider and plugs into the part on the handle bar ( Used extensively on Snowmobiles ) if the rider goes down it will pull apart and kill the ignition , this could also allow the rider to step off the bike say when on a dyno and not kill the engine . It could also be integrated into the cutoff and cut both ignition and LPG .

We have both ports on the TB one with little or no vac at Idle and full vac at wot the other full vac at idle ,, It also has a note in the mixer papers that if more ports are required just to drill and tap in the proper places for fittings but I think we are good to go we have one of each so that should be all needed .

In all honesty the bike builds so much energy so fast that if it does go down or rider goes off , the rotating mass will keep it going for a fair distance as I don't have the sprag clutch on the secondary clutch shaft anymore . It wouldn't surprise me with such a low center of gravity if it didn't stand back up and carry on for a bit . with rider off there is about 40% of the weight below the axels . That said the bike handles very well , no fishtailing what so ever just a 2 inch deep rut straight to where it is aimed there is little or no steering with such little weight on the front wheel under WOT .

gerald m

finally got some things done on the bike . short video update