bumpstart

looking good gerald ,, methinks your going to need a jetski battery that doesnt mind being mounted on its side .. and a jumper pack to assist startup

PS.. been quiet for a little while.. travelling in indo and came back crook

chainreaction

Hey Bump start> I got an idea for ya to chase. Back around 2005-6 i traveled out to Michigan to spectate at the US Sand Nationals. There was a guy there from California that had a Pauter big-block VW motor mounted sideways, chair drive off the flywheel powering a sideways mounted shorty glide. He was running nitro in the car at over 1000 hp. He explained to me that the torque of the motor works to pull the front of the car down when wheelying and has none of the normal torque steer that most race cars have to fight.
Follow the link, about halfway down the page.....
::: DRO ::: Sand Drags at San Jacinto Raceway
2nd and 3rd pass on the video

http://www.nsdn.us/video/primm102107tehighlights.wmv

gerald m

Almost got her ready to do some trials , Found two fuel tanks the same size and the exhaust is being done at the first chance my bud can get to it . The shop doesn't charge me for the pipe or for the time so I have to be patient I just stop and say hi every day ,, no pressure there .. I got tired of looking for stuff to make a nice air intake pipe so I just made the filter with a nice clean 5 inch hole and mounted it right on top , should work good , no 90 deg corners there . I didn't want anyone to know I used a Fram oil filter so I painted it black Did it fool ya ?? .. Now I,m talking about filters I remember from the 1950s a oil filter canister that was actually made to take a normal size roll of toilet paper . Delsey paper fit the darn things perfect and they did a very good job .. Does anyone remember what they were called ?? enough said Have a good one ( Edit ) Just when I hit the post button I remembered they were named FRANZ I don't think it had anything to do with the FRAM name the housings were made from aluminum .

A few more pics

gerald m

Bike fired up pretty good , runs very smooth not a vibration from anywhere , no side torque at all . I do have a video but it will take me a few days to edit the darn thing . I guess next I put the chain on and give her a try around the block . I still need a battery that will fit under the seat and still need to get the headers built , just stuck some stuff together so I could start it without burning the seat off . Anyone that has never heard a rotary with very short straight pipes ( and it is finally snapping hard on both rotors ) , better take a pair of ear muffs because if you don't you will be deaf in about 10 minutes . The next day or two I will try it out and see what happens , the one saddle tank had a small leak I will drain it out tomorrow and re-weld the fittings ,..
65 lbs oil pressure at warm idle , 15 inches of vacuum ,, I'm not so sure the bike will even weigh up to the 475 pound guess ..
6 ft. pin to pin , 8 ft. total length ... need to put a reserve coolant tank on the bike so the engine can keep itself full the ,, The top coolant pipe has a bit of a high spot to it so I welded a fitting and put a air valve in it so I can bleed the air out . For a catch canister I am using the rear window washer tank from the 86 -rx7 I should be able to hook the pump up and use it to purge the air from the system without starting the bike . Video will be up soon

bumpstart

awesome gerald.. have you looked at jet ski batteries,, maybe even twinning them?

also . normally on a 6p with a carb ..
16 maybe 17 inches Hg at 1000 rpm idle is the best you will get
( when you get the base timing and the idle mixture just right by ear )
.however 15 is good and may be influenced by the lack of header system .. or by the open plenum

i find with the 6 P engine on a carb the base timing goes up to around 5 BTDC
( before TDC ,, not after )

,,any further base timing ( ported 6p engines can enjoy up to 10 BTDC )
will require you to alter the mechanical curve limits inside the dizzy
( not that hard to do .. involves cutting a washer in two and a tac from the mig and re-assembly )

gerald m

Well I'm to say I don't own a timing light never have .oh I had all that stuff for the mechanic to use in my service station years back but never used one . ( I'm not saying it is good to just tune by ear and not saying people should but that is what I have done for 45 years . I know what you mean with the base timing though , Try this out for some thinking I reversed the leads coming from the leading pick up at the dizzy and it seemed to cure the off timing and really got down to running nice . starts nice too .
I really havent got down to tuning the carb or the enricher set up . The enricher works super at least sitting . Moving the leaver is just like changing jets ,, I thought I would need to adjust it as I opened the throttle but not so you just set it where ever it gives the best performance and leave it there .
SOOO Bump tell me more about the internal dizzy adjustment .. Gerald m

gerald m

Well It's been a long haul getting the dragon ready I'm guessing around 1500 hours maybe more went into research and the building of the bike and it is still not done .. If I'm right and I hope I am it will never be done there will always be something to improve .
As far as the monetary imput value I don't know and not so sure I want to figure it out , If I knew it might slow me up on the highway trike build that I want to start in the fall . Anyone in the Saskatchewan area that has a solid turbo rotary unit I might be interested if the price is fair , not interested in the tin just the engine and what ever let me know what you got for sure I will get back to you ..
I want to thank everyone who helped me out with info and parts you all know who you are .. keep up the good work guys you are a huge asset to this forum I wish I had as much info to give as I have absorbed .. for the RX7 Club . OH by the way NO I won't be going away now !!Glenside by the way is 8 miles east ..

bumpstart

fantastic... thats the vid we've been waiting to see..

you should check the timing when you install the modules
with the types im familiar with,, polarity is very important
,, wrong then the timing shifts and the self dwell doesnt work and spark gets weaker at revs

you may have worked that out yourself,, and methinks the first diagram in one of the threads i linked is for s1 dizzy,, ( with sawtooth trigger wheel other way around ) and so they have a reversed wiring polarity

methinks you probs have it sorted by ear .. and BTW that how i learned to tune carbs,, tune for max vacuum best idle
however,, if by ear you have set it to 10 or more BTDC,, you need to mod the curve in the dizzy as i was hinting at to retain power, and safety at revs

too much timing is not a good thing,, contrary to popular beliefs

if you search my posts on ausrotr
you should find posts where i have welded the half moon of a cut washer onto the advance curve slots under the dizzy base plate to limit total advance for a dizzy with aggressive base timing

-and altered the tension on the bobs for increased rate of curve

as for the dragon,, suggest a shield for exhaust stubs,, should you rest your hand or slip your legs across them
and suggest you get a 10a 550 belt ( can get you the washing machine equiv number if this is hard to find )
10a 550 .. no typo,, not 11a

and this goes around the main pulley and only the water pump.. on the unused V
and prevent the water pump slipping at revs,, and the belt squeeling

you need to fit the new belt like a bicycle chain,,, get it on as much as you can ,, then turn the main pulley with a jog .. tur pulley in reverse if it jumps on twisted
-- no tensioner is required .. water pump will still turn if you throw the alt belt

chainreaction

Sounds good Gerald. You might want to step up the idle a bit.....
For tuning I set mine at 1800 rpms and at the races around 3800, my sno-mo clutch is tuned to engage around 4200. I'm anxious to see it run now.

I cut up a new cherry bomb muffle and used the core as an insert into my pipes. Took some of the harshness out of the exhaust note and gets it down to meet our Db limit.

BTW I found a donor motor for Chainreaction. A guy in Providence Rhode Island took an 83 RX-7 with a bridge-ported 12a in trade for another car. It is supposed to have 2600 miles since built. It has a coolant leak and he just wants it gone.
At our last race, we came home with a sno-mobile powered drag quad! Just what I need, another project!

gerald m

Hi Darryl yea the clutch is way light . it had the smallest spring in the primary ( blue , green stripe ) and it engaged the pulley up against the belt at Idle .. this part of the world is hard to find just what I need but the dude at Polaris in Saskatoon told me there are only 2 springs available for the stock 500 sportsman so I bought one for a 800 Sportsman and with that I bought a black spring with green stripe and a set of 10-66 weights to replace the 10 WH weights to give it the extra push so I guess I will try that and see what happens thee secondary has a hefty spring already so it should back shift ok . I have been trying to absorb all the literature you sent me and it does make sense .. I think I just need to play with it a bit and gain a little knowledge .
The only thing that I need to do before trying the dragon is this spring and weight thing .. I think it would have been disaster to muck about with that light spring and weights . I have NEVER worked with sno mo type clutches so I will use the info you sent me as a guide line and go from there .. The darn weights are expensive $100.00 for the set of three weights and the spring was only $35.00 so it is a place to start ..
The dude at the Polaris dealer seemed a little concerned about the clutch he thought it might be a little light and come apart but when I asked him if he was saying that to cover himself or not and he just smiled so not sure what that meant .
Seems to me he said the spring was a 40-140 and that what I bought should do the 8000 RPM area easy . So here's hoping I think I will take it out on the street in front of my shack and try her out tomorrow then it will be out to my buddy's to try on the grass .
Got my new headers built I will post a coupe pics of them .. Now that I have the headers to size I have a place for a small car battery . I found that a used 410 ccc used battery starts it just fine
So I take it that you put the A engine in chainreaction .and not the 13b ..yea I did think it was idling to slow ,any slower and it just won't idle ..
One think I am just tickled with is the enricher I put on the 500 Holley ( takes the place of the high speed jets . I thought it needed to be adjusted as the throttle is opened but not so you just set it where it performs the best and leave it . Moving the leaver is just like taking a stock carb apart and changing the jets . the kit also come with a power valve plug .. These things can also be used on the four barrel types you just need 2 kits . Last year I couldn't get the dragon to idle proper and got very little to no adjustment on the air idle screws . Now I can stall it out at 1.5 turns out on either screw and at 2 turns out it runs very nice . so I am happy with that set up .. Thanks for the input always good to hear from you .

Don't be afraid to post some pics of your new project . I am always interested and if you think I am heading the wrong way with the clutch please let me know . Have a good one Gerald m.

gerald m

Well this is what I have been waiting for .. My comment on just putting lasted until the side walk . First time out I forgot to wait for my bud to follow Blew the belt just outside of town ., When my chum Brian pushed me out on the street is the second run . Got it out going good cracked it open and blewy blew the second belt not to say I wasn't a tad disappointed but much to my relief When I took a good look in the clutch housing I was happy to see that the belt had moved up against the inside of the housing and had polished it up so I think My problems are solved .
The heavy black with green stripe primary spring I think he said 40-140 ( means 40 lbs to start movement and 140 pounds of pressure at end of throw not sure , so the new spring and weights #10 -19 gram weights seem to work ok together . The bike accelerates unbelievably fast and runs straight and true even on gravel and the LITTLE ENGINE doesn't even know the bike is there . The (100x120x18 Kenda Milville sticky )and that is A HUGE KNOBBY tire and the little bit of abuse it has went through tells me it will be fine in dirt if it can take hard gravel road
So it's off to Saskatoon in the morning for belt , The kid and a sharp little dude too at rec supply told me he had a much better belt but of course the price is much better also .
It's a downer when **** goes wrong but I think I would be foolish to assume that there would be no problems the first trials with a build like this ..
**** happens fast when your running on the gravel . I have no idea how fast I was going maybe 75- 80 MPH and the pulleys were just past there halfway point when the belts blew . When I think back everything went great until I cracked it good I could feel a small vibration and then blewy ( no doubt the ribs on the belt rubbing on the rib on the inside of the housing .)
So problems or no I feel every thing is great and come race day ( excuse my language but ) There ain't a ******* chance in hell anyone is going to beat me maybe next year but not this year . I rode lots of street bikes and the boys have a lot of work to do to catch up and they will I hope . I can see this thing growing to be something bigger .
I wonder what will happen when the belt gets to go all the way , like it will be nuts . Right now I have a 3.3 to 1 ratio on start up , when that changes over to 1 to 3.3 stuff is going to really rock . Sorry for the poor video the guys did the best they could under the circumstances . It sucks taking video from behind ,
Question I should know this but I don't does the engine RPM count one revolution of the eccentric or does it count rotor revolutions and do I need a special tack or will most do the job ???? Thank-you everyone I haven't had so much fun since Maw got her tit caught in the ringer ..

chainreaction

I like the way your bell housing came out. I may have to save the one of the 83 I'm picking up tomorrow to try and copy yours! I think I "trimmed" mine 5-6 times before i got it to where the belt didn't rub!
A stock clutch tune is going to cause it to start shifting up way too soon, slowing your ability to get the motor up into the power curve. With mine engaging at around 4200, I'm already into the power curve when I touch it off and am over 7,000 rpm's within a fraction of a second.
I run a brown spring on my primary clutch. I tried a more aggressive one but the clutch engagement was just too harsh. It wanted to kick rocks at the vehicles behind me in staging. not pretty! As light as your bike is, any weights above say 55-60 grams should get you in the ball park. I buy mine individually at our local Polaris dealer for around $12-13 each. I think you got the Canadian tax/currency thing adding to your misery. Let me know if your weights don't work out. I have several lighter sets of 4 that I don't need any more.
I found that my plugs lasted longer with the higher idle and I got much better throttle response. At 36-3800 rpms I'm just into the secondaries on the Holley. I recall the lower idle also caused a bit more inconsistency on the clutch engagement too.
I have a feeling that your going to have more of a challenge tuning the clutch so you don't over power the tires too quickly. Good luck this weekend!
Mark your clutch faces with a sharpie before you run. The belt will scuff it off to the point it shifts up to making it easier to track.
Almost sounds like your timing is off just a hair....

bumpstart

awesome-

4 cylinder tacho should do the trick ..
tacho originally for points may be a little sensitive and require you to make a "corvette tacho filter" from a $5 of stuff from the electronics store

gerald m

Hey darryl Yea I think your right about the timing I changed it a bit before today's action and should have left it alone .. .
I like the auto trans housing it's clean and tidy but your tower is a bit bigger I think so me you might need to chew the hole out a bit more but inside it seems to ample room . the shields by the way worked great couldn't feel anything when the belts blew .
I do remember you telling me to make sure to have enough clearance for the belt and did look many times deciding I was ok . I'm just glad it is a simple screw up on my part .
The old weights are 45 Grams the new are around 65-70 the 45's were throwing in on low idle , the new with the new spring are just right for my rpm but I don't know what that is so I will buy a tack tomorrow when I go for more parts .Rec supply said they might be interested in sponsoring me but they want to see the machine preform first . If I could get clutch parts and tires from them that would take a big load off . thanks for your imput I will keep you posted . forgot to mention that the engine braking system works super . if it was any more aggressive it would skid the rear wheel ,, When I back off on the throttle it coasts for maybe 2-3 seconds and then kicks in ,slows it to about 15 MPH and then releases, A great option

gerald m

Thanks bump sounds good I will get one tomorrow so I know what is going on , was actually looking at a 4 cyl one the other day but left it because I didnt know if it would work and have a house full of stuff I bought and never returned . By the way I forgot to tell you that I am not using my 6 ports right now and don't think I even need them

bumpstart

are you running all ports wired open.. or the aux ports wired shut ?
open will drop the power a little off the line .. but increase the mid and top end power ,, an option to consider if the clutch and drive is hooking up too much down low

closed will make the engine sharp on the throttle but run out of puff above 6000..

me.. im in the wire them open camp.. you dont need the bottom end TQ with such a low mass to push ,,may even make the clutch setup easier .. and you keep the rotary's famous top end up your sleeve when its needed

gerald m

I love your way of thinking bump , I run the machine with ports closed . On my first start up vid you might have noticed me playing with them a bit , yea I like that idea because it sure don't need that much at the bottom . It dug a trench about 3 inches deep and maybe 500 ft. long in the top of the road bed , it was only about 2 inches deep when the last belt blew . Now I think about it the bike did seem to get a little lazy at the end when she sploded What a dream to handle , a little shakey up to about 10-15 MPH then it is straight ahead so I guess my 50 deg rake isn't over kill after all . I will need to get the locktite out all the small stuff wants to come loose . enough said for now getting ready to go for belt and tack .. Gotta clean my act up a tad when I go to the city or every-one looks at me like I got 2 heads or something . and guess how much I care .

gerald m

checked weights and they are 66 grams so the dude that helped me at polaris in saskatoon seems to be on the same wave length .. good to know there is someone close that has some clutch knowledge ..
Last run the darn solenoid came off and lost the plunger and spring . try to find one in this country . I will go for a drive in the morning maybe it will show up .

chainreaction

The curse of a solid mounted rotary.
Locktite or nylocks on everything! In several locations I have even backed up a nut with a nylock to be safe. (Ie: motor mounts) I have had two solenoids rattle apart. After every weekend of racing I have to go over the entire car to check and re-tighten stuff! Spade connectors on wiring even find a way to rattle off..... I have wire-tied the starter solenoid wire and coil wires in place because I got sick of them rattling off!

.....I should have Chainreaction's new motor fired up later today!

gerald m

I figured it is common for things to come loose because of the vibration .. I was beating my self up thinking I left them loose , at the same time knowing that I went over everything at least twice . I bought a small tack yesterday so I asked the dude if it could take high vibration . He informed me that all his products were good quality and it is 100% guaranteed no questions so I got him to put that on the bill . I have a feeling he just might get tired of seeing me .
I'm pleased with the way my mounts work all the way around , there are no cracks in the dust around the mounting surfaces anywhere .
The kid at Rec Supply told me my last belts have a one year warranty and so does my ( new tougher one ) I told him what I was doing and that there were no pieces to be found except a few threads wrapped around the clutch ,, He told me he needs to have something to throw in the warranty box and to try to find some pieces next time if it happens and he will give me a new belt. Well I guess I will see if anyone has some starter pieces for sale or maybe a complete starter and some pieces for the one I have so there is a spare .


If you have time how about some video of the ( first start) on chainreaction . Good luck Darryl hope it works good . Gerald m.

bumpstart

the starter solenoid is very common on many brands of japanese car going back many years .. -you should have no issue finding something the same
.. just look sideways at any 80's -90's japanese car wreck

gerald m

I have a chum that works at a large auto wrecker( for this part of the world anyway ) he will check stuff out monday morning and let me know what he can find . I would buy a new starter and a solenoid but none of these dam dealers in the states will ship a starter to Canada even the Canada business wont ship a starter . I can buy a gun online but not a starter stupid bastards .

gerald m

Well maybe not quite self destructing , I could have had a little to do with that . The clutch from the 500 sportsman was just to light ( probably a good clutch for lighter applications for what it was intended for but not quite tuff enough for the the Dragon ..
Found a secondary from a 9oo polaris fusion sno mo with nitrous so it should hold up good . spent the rest of the week machining a new jack shaft cutting the splines was a bit of a bugger , but in the end it worked out great .
Took it out this evening opened it up a bit (finally ) and it just goes like stink , no signs of belt failure at all and it is a mid range price belt so there are better ones if I need them . Not sure the numbers on the secondary spring ( red ) with blue or green dots. but it worked nice at least on the gravel . Need to get it on some grass and dirt and try it out ,
You no Darryl when you sent me all the clutching info and in it was stated if people start telling me to try this , try that ,maybe this or that to just walk away , well I have been doing a lot of walking away . It is surprising how many people have played with their sleds for years and still don't understand how primary and secondary work together . Anyway the info you supplied was pretty much bang on and I thank-you for helping me out . Heck I would still be trying to figure out what to do next . Not that I have turned into a clutch pro over night but I do have a good basic understanding on how primary and secondary work together .
Strapped my camera on to the bike to try to take some footage but I might as well have suit cased it for all the good it did ( just a big grey blur ) was all the footage ended up to be .. .
13 days to go and now I can spend some time tuning and making sure things stay tight . ( I have used my fair share of thread lock and so far everything seems to be ok ) ..
I do have a lazy rear rotor it seems to go along for the ride until I thumb the throttle then it wakes right up , clutch kicks in around 3700 to 3800 , the tack only goes to 8000 so I don't know what it tops out at but it is pinned at the blink of an eye and like you said bumpstart I will keep the extra revs hidden away until I need them .
Bumpstart One thing I am wondering is if I used the pickups in the dizzy , one for each rotor and adjusted the trailing advance so it would fire at the same time as the leading would my ignition be stronger feeding only one module with each pickup instead of feeding both modules with the same pickup ? Not that it is weak ( it got me real good today probably jumped 2 inches like a bolt of blue lightning , I could see it jump and get me .
I will make an extra effort to get some good footage of things in the next few days . Gerald m.

bumpstart

having two pickups will not increase the spark intensity,, and will allow scope for a tiny bit of error in timing between the rotors

you can however use the trailing pickup for the leading spark ( and re-time the engine to suit )
if you still have a functional vac advance then the trailing pot does offer a wider range of movement across the same vacuum


also
if you ever wish to add the extra igniter and extra coil and put the trailing timing back on then you must run the trailing vai the dizzy cap and button.. this will phase the spark to the correct front or rear rotor
you can however run all three of these igniters off the same pickup.. getting a dual fire mode with a wasted leading extra spark
//
however gains are minimal over leading only .. ( mostly off idle ) the extra components add complexity and the functional trailing spark increases detonation risks

running leading only DFI you can actually sneak a little more agressive timing at it without the same risks

lazy rear rotor may be indication that the low speed or idle circuit in that side of the carb isnt functional
( methinks you have a common plenum though? )

but methinks here it may actually be indication of a vac leak .. get out the kero on a brush and paint the gasket edges while engine is running

blwfly

iTrader: (4)

wow this bike is cool congrats on your successful run. looks like a ton of fun.
when your competition catch up just pull the engine and port it lol they wont know what happened.

cheers
kiwi