Royal Purple, might be good for our car?
11-05-08, 06:50 AM
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Royal Purple, might be good for our car?
I know, I know; my first real post and I am going to bring up an old topic. But according to Royal Purple, synthetic oil is good for our rotaries! Please read the e-mail responce they sent to me. I would like to hear some feedback from any that disagree. This post starts with my orignal e-mail to Royal Purple.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:25 PM
To: rpautotech
Cc: rpindtech@royalpurple.com
Subject: Automotive Questions
Royal Purple,
I have been using your oil for over 10 years. I recently purchased an
RX-7 Efini (twin turbo). Unfortunately the forums say not to use
synthetic oil. I know that the engine uses(injects into combustion
chamber)oil to lubricate the apex seals but why is synthetic a bad
thing? Will it not combust? Is the XPR - eXtreme Performance Racing oil
the right choice(and safe one for my rotary), or should I say farewell
to synthetic oil for the engine? Thanks for any guidance.
V/R,
Jeff
- - - - - - -
Jeff,
If you car is stock then RP 5w30, RP 10w30, RP 10w40, RP 15w40, or the ultimate choices would be XPR 5w30 or XPR 10w40. If you have increased the boost beyond the factory boost or switched out your turbo, then we recommend XPR 5w30, RP 10w40, RP 15w40, or XPR 10w40.
Here are some facts about synthetic oil and the questions that were asked-
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn’t burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
Have a great day.
Kyle Neal
Technical Sales Representative
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, Texas 77365
work- 281-354-800 ex 248
cell- 713-705-9556
kneal@royalpurple.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 9:25 PM
To: rpautotech
Cc: rpindtech@royalpurple.com
Subject: Automotive Questions
Royal Purple,
I have been using your oil for over 10 years. I recently purchased an
RX-7 Efini (twin turbo). Unfortunately the forums say not to use
synthetic oil. I know that the engine uses(injects into combustion
chamber)oil to lubricate the apex seals but why is synthetic a bad
thing? Will it not combust? Is the XPR - eXtreme Performance Racing oil
the right choice(and safe one for my rotary), or should I say farewell
to synthetic oil for the engine? Thanks for any guidance.
V/R,
Jeff
- - - - - - -
Jeff,
If you car is stock then RP 5w30, RP 10w30, RP 10w40, RP 15w40, or the ultimate choices would be XPR 5w30 or XPR 10w40. If you have increased the boost beyond the factory boost or switched out your turbo, then we recommend XPR 5w30, RP 10w40, RP 15w40, or XPR 10w40.
Here are some facts about synthetic oil and the questions that were asked-
Can Royal Purple Motor Oil be used in a rotary engine?
Yes. A rotary engine is a modified four cycle engine that recommends the use of an API licensed motor oil for street applications.
More information and FAQs on lubrication of Rotary Engines:
In a rotary engine, the oil lubricates the eccentric shaft bearings, thrust needle bearings and rotor bearings similar to a crank and rod bearing of a piston engine as well as being injected into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals, corner seals, and side seals helping to create the sealing mechanism doing the equivalent job of the piston rings.
Royal Purple provides outstanding protection for the e-shaft, rotor bearings, thrust bearings and is suitable for the oil injection system as it has proven to run cleaner than other oils and is an excellent choice for rotary apex seals, corner seals, and side seals.
Owner’s Manual not to use synthetic oils in a rotary engine, why do you say that it is OK?
Royal Purple has performed seal compatibility testing on the components used in a rotary with excellent results, including older rotary engine seals dating back to the Cosmo. Royal Purple’s Technical Services Manager David Canitz has been an owner and racer of rotary engine cars and has used synthetic motor oils in rotaries since 1985 with excellent results. He has been trying to find an answer to this Mazda statement for the last 18 years.
In the early development of synthetic oils decades ago, there were purportedly some seal compatibility issues. Today’s synthetic oils do not have the compatibility issues of the old oils. There is no substantiated evidence of seal compatibility issues with Royal Purple.
Here are some facts:
The Mazda Factory racing departments recommend and use ‘synthetic’ oils including the winning 1991 Leman’s 20-G 4 rotor Mazda 787B.
MazdaComp USA printed manual (now Mazdaspeed) recommends the use of synthetic oils for racing conditions.
Royal Purple Motor Oils have been used in rotary engines (both race and street) for ten plus years with excellent results.
Royal Purple Motor Oil is compatible with the bearing material, sealing elastomers, and combustion seals used in a rotary engine.
I heard that synthetic oil doesn’t burn like mineral based oils and will coat the inside of the engine with deposits.
If this was a problem with synthetic motor oils in general, then all internal combustion engines using a ‘synthetic’ would experience increased deposits on internal surfaces. The opposite is actually the norm.
Conventional four cycle motor oils will typically leave deposits of carbon and ash when injected into the rotary apex seal, corner seal, and side seal areas. Royal Purple’s motor oil actually burns cleaner due to the synthetic base stock being free of contamination and many of the additives being ‘ashless’. This may not be true for all synthetics but Royal Purple has been proven to work extremely well in rotary engines.
Royal Purple’s formulation of synthetic hydrocarbon motor oil does burn at the nominal combustion temperatures experienced in both street and racing applications, whether normally aspirated, turbocharged, or supercharged. (500 – 1700° F idle to race rpms typical combustion temps)
Will the synthetic oil effect the oil seals?
No. Royal Purple’s Motor Oil is fully compatible with the elastomers found in rotary engines as well as more conventional piston engines. The oil seals, housing seals and other elastomers used in rotary engines typically consist of Buna N, Nitriles, Neoprene, or Viton materials which are also commonly found in piston engine cars.
I hear that synthetic is ‘thinner or lighter’ oil, is there a greater possibility that the oil will leak between the seals?
No. If an engine’s sealing surfaces are in good condition, synthetic oil should not cause any leakage. However, if an engine has marginal seals, there is a 50/50 chance the seals will leak less or more. A synthetic motor oil is going to have similar viscosity to that of a conventional motor oil – except at extreme temperatures. Due to a flatter viscosity curve, at low temperatures it will not thicken as much (easier winter cranking) and it does not thin out as quickly at higher operating temperatures (better oil film at higher rpm).
Should I go longer or shorter between oil changes?
Royal Purple recommends that the maximum oil drain / filter change interval listed in the Owner’s Manual be followed while under warranty (new RX8). For FA, FB, FC, FC Turbos, and FD rotaries, extending drain intervals from two to five fold is possible if desired. Since the rotary engine injects oil through the use of a metered oil pump, either adding oil into the carb base plate air / fuel mixture or directly injecting oil into the rotor housing, rotary engines will consume oil of one quart per 1000 – 3000 miles. It is important to maintain the proper crankcase oil level in your rotary engine if you decide to extend oil drain intervals.
If I pre-mix my fuel for the rotary engine, do I use the same ratio as with mineral based oils? Does it burn at the same rate?
In an ideal world, the rotary engine metered oil pump should inject an ashless oil designed to burn in the combustion chamber and use a four cycle oil in the crankcase for the eccentric shaft, rotor bearings, and thrust bearings. For the street, Mazda simplified the OE system to use just one oil, that being a typical four cycle oil for both the e-shaft as well as the combustion chamber. Royal Purple recommends using our standard TCW III 2 Cycle Oil if the metered oil pump is still enabled. The two cycle oil being added to the fuel tank is in addition to what Mazda designed to inject and acts as a supplement or insurance. Depending on which engine, the level of modifications (street port, Bridgeport, peripheral port, nitrous, turbocharged) and application, the typical mix ratio could vary from 200:1 to 800:1.
For a pure racing application where the metered oil pump has been disabled or removed, again based on the actual engine and modification level, the ratio could vary from 150:1 to 600:1. For this application, we recommend our Racing 2 Cycle TCW III product or the standard 2 Cycle TCW III can also be used.
A stock FD twin turbo 13B with the MOP oil injection system can typically use about one quart per 1500 miles under hard street driving. If this vehicle is getting 15 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio is 400:1. If the oil consumption on this vehicle reduces to 1 quart per 2500 miles and fuel efficiency increases to 20 mpg, the gasoline to oil ratio increases to 600:1. The stock metering oil pump is a great system as it varies with throttle position (load on the engine). Pre-mixing has to be calculated for the ‘worst case’ that will be seen by the engine for that fuel load. Under racing conditions, that’s wide open throttle at racing rpms. This means that at idle, the ratio may be slightly fat (rich).
Have a great day.
Kyle Neal
Technical Sales Representative
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, Texas 77365
work- 281-354-800 ex 248
cell- 713-705-9556
kneal@royalpurple.com
11-06-08, 06:59 PM
#5
2 RX-7s Better Than One
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Mr
I also got a similar reply from amsoil. They said virtually the same thing. By the way, I don't sell amsoil, but I've used it in my 87 GXL for 3 years now and am very pleased with it.
08-12-10, 09:25 AM
#7
Racing Beat originally used Amsoil and loved it. Then they switched to Royal Purple and love it. One of the main guys at Royal Purple is an RX-7 driver and has been for a very long time. I have used it for many years and love it and I know other rotary owners that have too.
It was 4 or 5 years ago at one of the Sevenstocks where I met a gentleman whose last name was Yamaguchi. That may as well be Smith or Jones in the U.S. He was the head of the rotary department in Japan so there really was no one to talk to who was higher in the rotary world. He was helped formulate Idemitsu oil for the LeMans cars so he knows his stuff. I asked him about synthetic oils and rotary engines and why Mazda says not to use them. His response, in broken English, was pretty much what I expected to hear.
At some point Mazda had tested several synthetic oils in rotary engines. Most worked just fine. However there was something about one particular oil that he didn't like which caused him not to recommend it for use in rotaries. That oil just so happened to be the most widely used synthetic oil in the world. From that sentance alone it should be obvious that it is Mobil 1. This is not an official Mazda opinion though but rather his. He was being honest and not playing to legal issues. He didn't elaborate what it was about the oil other than to say that it was something about the formulation in their synthetics. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was a synthetic oil but rather an additive that just so happened to be in that particular oil. I have no idea how long ago that test was and if it was reformulated since then. It probably has been as every few years new standards come out and things get changed a bit.
He said that as a company they can not say that synthetics are fine but then go on to proclaim certain ones as unsafe or not recommended. That leaves the door open for lawsuits from the excluded companies. It is a far better decision as a company, and far easier with less headaches, to just say not to use any synthetics at all. That's why they don't recommend it. It's all politics. If synthetics were bad, Mazda wouldn't run them in their race engines. There is nothing special about Idemitsu that makes it rotary safe compared to other synthetics. It is more accurate to say that synthetics are safe but one or two of them have something in them that make those particular oils non rotary compatible.
He didn't list off all of the oils he didn't like but that one just stuck out. I did ask him about Royal Purple though and he said it was fine. I was quite satisfied with that conversation. I have told that story on forums many times since then and it never fails, someone still gets into the debate because they say X person at Mazda said not to use it or because Mazda says not to. I got the info straight from the horses mouth. Anyone else that is saying what to use it lower on the food chain that this guy is. I trust the guy who is in charge of the department and who helps formulate the oils that they race with. Keep in mind I know several people who have run Mobil 1 synthetic in rotaries with no issues so I really don't know what the problem was. Apparently there was something they didn't like about it.
I asked legendary rotary engine builder Rick Engman about his opinion on synthetics in rotaries and his response was that he wouldn't use anything else.
The reality is that all engines oils are pretty good today with many conventionals being better than the synthetics of 15 years ago. Any benefit from synthetics will be longterm benefits over the life of the engine. I don't know many rotary owners who keep their engines alive long enough to notice!
It was 4 or 5 years ago at one of the Sevenstocks where I met a gentleman whose last name was Yamaguchi. That may as well be Smith or Jones in the U.S. He was the head of the rotary department in Japan so there really was no one to talk to who was higher in the rotary world. He was helped formulate Idemitsu oil for the LeMans cars so he knows his stuff. I asked him about synthetic oils and rotary engines and why Mazda says not to use them. His response, in broken English, was pretty much what I expected to hear.
At some point Mazda had tested several synthetic oils in rotary engines. Most worked just fine. However there was something about one particular oil that he didn't like which caused him not to recommend it for use in rotaries. That oil just so happened to be the most widely used synthetic oil in the world. From that sentance alone it should be obvious that it is Mobil 1. This is not an official Mazda opinion though but rather his. He was being honest and not playing to legal issues. He didn't elaborate what it was about the oil other than to say that it was something about the formulation in their synthetics. It had nothing to do with the fact that it was a synthetic oil but rather an additive that just so happened to be in that particular oil. I have no idea how long ago that test was and if it was reformulated since then. It probably has been as every few years new standards come out and things get changed a bit.
He said that as a company they can not say that synthetics are fine but then go on to proclaim certain ones as unsafe or not recommended. That leaves the door open for lawsuits from the excluded companies. It is a far better decision as a company, and far easier with less headaches, to just say not to use any synthetics at all. That's why they don't recommend it. It's all politics. If synthetics were bad, Mazda wouldn't run them in their race engines. There is nothing special about Idemitsu that makes it rotary safe compared to other synthetics. It is more accurate to say that synthetics are safe but one or two of them have something in them that make those particular oils non rotary compatible.
He didn't list off all of the oils he didn't like but that one just stuck out. I did ask him about Royal Purple though and he said it was fine. I was quite satisfied with that conversation. I have told that story on forums many times since then and it never fails, someone still gets into the debate because they say X person at Mazda said not to use it or because Mazda says not to. I got the info straight from the horses mouth. Anyone else that is saying what to use it lower on the food chain that this guy is. I trust the guy who is in charge of the department and who helps formulate the oils that they race with. Keep in mind I know several people who have run Mobil 1 synthetic in rotaries with no issues so I really don't know what the problem was. Apparently there was something they didn't like about it.
I asked legendary rotary engine builder Rick Engman about his opinion on synthetics in rotaries and his response was that he wouldn't use anything else.
The reality is that all engines oils are pretty good today with many conventionals being better than the synthetics of 15 years ago. Any benefit from synthetics will be longterm benefits over the life of the engine. I don't know many rotary owners who keep their engines alive long enough to notice!
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08-12-10, 04:59 PM
#8
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I don't see the point of running even the best synthetic in a rotary because there is no getting by the fact that rotaries dilute the oil so fast it has to be changed within 3000 miles. I am not going to spend 10$ a quart just to throw it away 3 months later.
08-13-10, 09:58 AM
#9
^You're entitled to that opinion. Many people use conventionals for that very reason. There are ONLY 2 conventional oils that I will even personally touch and I consider the rest pure junk to be avoided at all costs. Those 2 are Havoline and Castrol. They are both very good oils. Stay away from Pennzoil. At only $3 a bottle it is cheap but it is also terrible stuff. At first the engine runs fine with it but after about a thousand miles or so the smoothness is gone and that oil isn't really doing it's job well anymore.
I have played around with all kinds of oils and have even gone down to 5W20 in an FC with no issues. Rotaries seem to run smoother on 40W or 50W oils though with no apparent loss in mileage (if that sort of thing concerns you!). On the other end of the spectrum I have done a 10K mile oil change interval using full synthetics but only topping off the oil when it gets low due to oil metering. I have never seen any issues at all from this in the 15 years that I've been playing with rotaries and have yet to have an engine failure out of 5 heavily beaten RX-7's in that time. Today I run a Sohn oil metering pump adapter which pulls metering oil from a separate reservoir. I run Royal Purple (although I also like Redline and Amsoil) 20W50 synthetic and will run about a 5000 mile oil change interval although a bit more doesn't bother me. I just check to see if it needs topping off. The metering oil reservoir is large enough that I don't need to add to it until I do regular oil changes. I use a good 2 stroke oil in it but have been known to just put regular oil in it when I was out of 2 stroke. My car has the oil pan drain plug magnet and I run an oil filter magnet. I believe this all to work just fine. Fuel dilution doesn't ever get to the point that the oil isn't working well. It may be more of an issue on a turbo car but mine is n/a and is running nice and smooth at 140K miles and counting.
I have played around with all kinds of oils and have even gone down to 5W20 in an FC with no issues. Rotaries seem to run smoother on 40W or 50W oils though with no apparent loss in mileage (if that sort of thing concerns you!). On the other end of the spectrum I have done a 10K mile oil change interval using full synthetics but only topping off the oil when it gets low due to oil metering. I have never seen any issues at all from this in the 15 years that I've been playing with rotaries and have yet to have an engine failure out of 5 heavily beaten RX-7's in that time. Today I run a Sohn oil metering pump adapter which pulls metering oil from a separate reservoir. I run Royal Purple (although I also like Redline and Amsoil) 20W50 synthetic and will run about a 5000 mile oil change interval although a bit more doesn't bother me. I just check to see if it needs topping off. The metering oil reservoir is large enough that I don't need to add to it until I do regular oil changes. I use a good 2 stroke oil in it but have been known to just put regular oil in it when I was out of 2 stroke. My car has the oil pan drain plug magnet and I run an oil filter magnet. I believe this all to work just fine. Fuel dilution doesn't ever get to the point that the oil isn't working well. It may be more of an issue on a turbo car but mine is n/a and is running nice and smooth at 140K miles and counting.
08-22-10, 09:44 AM
#10
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All good stuff gentlemen. I now know most synthetics aren't bad for my rotary should I choose to switch. And, since I change my oil every 2,000 miles, it's nice to know the conventional oil I do use, Castrol GTX, is one of only 2 recommended by an experienced rotary enthusiast. Thank you!
08-24-10, 12:46 AM
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That is very interesting because I raced a rotary engine with Mobil1 racing oil.
I noticed higher oil pressure even after temperature went up, and i have never damaged an engine with Mobil 1 racing formula in it. i did lose 2 engines when i tried other oil Castrol synthetic being one of the other oils.
I noticed higher oil pressure even after temperature went up, and i have never damaged an engine with Mobil 1 racing formula in it. i did lose 2 engines when i tried other oil Castrol synthetic being one of the other oils.
08-29-10, 03:13 PM
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^You're entitled to that opinion. Many people use conventionals for that very reason. There are ONLY 2 conventional oils that I will even personally touch and I consider the rest pure junk to be avoided at all costs. Those 2 are Havoline and Castrol. They are both very good oils. Stay away from Pennzoil. At only $3 a bottle it is cheap but it is also terrible stuff. At first the engine runs fine with it but after about a thousand miles or so the smoothness is gone and that oil isn't really doing it's job well anymore.
I have used Royal Purple, Amsoil and synthetic Casterol and Valvoline with good results in my piston cars. I have also enjoyed good results with MOBIL 1 in by BULLITT. 80K miles and the engine internals were clean enough to eat off of. I also always spring for better filters. Not the $3 fram. Have had GREAT luck with the K&N filters especially.
08-31-10, 07:00 PM
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I have read about a new line of FRAM filters that run in the $30 range. Never tried one of those. Love the K&N though. I have liked everything K&N I have purchased over the years. Always seem to be top notch quality.
