So i've got an e6k and have basically messed around with all the settings and maps to get more aquainted with the software. Basically im stuck on the spark or timing maps. What would be changed to have to set the timing different than a stock motor. WOuldn't the mixture need to be sparked the same time as a stock motor to a street or bridge motor. Im totally lost on that part of the system.

 

Basically, you want to run as much ignition timing advance as you can before the engine detonates and blows up...
Yes, scary, but it's that simple.

EGT gauge helps here...
Dyno also helps here...


-Ted

 

What!!!!

B

 

Houstonderk, if you want, I can make you a base MAP to work with for your partial bridgeport setup. Don't mess with the ignition curves or the trail-split timing. Just shoot me an email found in my signature and I'll get you going.

B

 

Hmmm...another useful reply.


-Ted

 

So you would basically change the timing for the exhaust temps to stay lower? I want to try a map that would make the motor work, but not blow though and that sounds drastic waiting to hear for detonation and all. Basically thats one of those experience things.

 

It's about as useful as your inexperienced, couch-potato borne "advice", Ted.

B

 

Whatever you do Houstonderk, don't experiment with ignition advance lightly. It is definitely not something for the light-hearted to play with. This is the kind of stuff that can kill an engine very quickly. It's of critical importance and is nowhere near as easy as how Ted has foolishly suggested. When I produce base maps for people to use, the ignition curves (both leading and trail-split) are set a specific way based upon the port of the motor as well as the compression ratio and they are meant to be unchanged throughout the use of that setup.

B

 

Still trying to start ****...
*sigh*

True that certain porting types will tend to show a "trend" in maps, I don't assume this myself.
The maps all imply engine VE, and no one engine displays identical VE numbers to another engine even with "identical" (i.e. CNC'd ports) porting.
I tune every engine from scratch and try to hit as many map points as possible on street driving.

/input from me in this thread.


-Ted

 

Hmm. Seems like there are different ways to the timing maps i guess. Thats one reason i don't mess with that, but wondered why it would change if the compression part of the stroke doesn't get changed just has more air and fuel.

Bdc, sent you an email, but don't know if it sent it right.

 

Yep, I got it. I'll make you a base map for it today. Don't change the ignition curves.

B

 

Yeah thats some good advice for a person who obviously doesn't understand everything about tuning but who's asking trying to learn. Hey man, advance your timing until it detonates and then back it off a bit. Assuming it lives of course!

 

Ted, when talking to a novice, what the hell kind of advice is that?

I agree that pushing ignition to the edge will usually help you extract that last ounce power, but for the love of god, start with a safe base igntion map and tweek slowly and carefully.

Its possible he could go that agressive from the get go and not blow his engine up, but thats a huge risk to take.

When tuning for the first time, you ALWAYS start conservatively.

 

Yeah, brillo has a good point, personally i do exactly that, my BASE MAPS dont start of making great power, but it will never brake during tuning, then after i have the fuel dialed in pretty decently i start messing with the timing. And timing results will always always be dependant on a lot of things, but most importantly, depending on who you talk to, who built the engine, and what kind of power band its most optimum at, you will have to deal with the different schools of thought that almost all people have, and it will vary from person to person, you may find some common details, but most of the time, each individual will do things the way they know makes the results.

So, the advise is there, the information is there, use it at your own risk, but start with small steps then build up. This is an art form, and cant be rushed, you rush it and you will miss things and you will blow it.

 

So basically what kind of sensors(tools) would make it alot more reasonable to deal with timing after having a base map and then dialing the fuel in? EGT to watch the temps, but do you go for a certain temp and then when advancing or retarding does it go certain ways? I mean you couldn't really just listen for pinging or knocking and then change it back some could you?

 

I do not want to post the timing of dereks motor but since you are doing the base map Brian if you want the pics of the P port I haven't posted yet or some timing numbers let me know. The motor is running 9:4:1 rotors on pump gas as well. There is allot of advance on the motor none done to the ports them self only the bridge that was cut and the exhaust was used instead for more advance around the band and exhaust volume. the motor is running a T04E on stock manifold and more of an open exhaust ;-). The map just needs tuned close enough for us to work out for brake in till the 13th when Elliot at turblown is in town and will tune it for me.

 

Why the hell are you guys going off on Ted? He did not post anything incorrect it is the nity broke down truth. He did not say it was easy or the safest way but that it was the name of the game. Sure a new tuner will more then likely destroy a motor trying to tune the ignition edge maybe a disclaimer be nice but I wouldn't think that is Teds job to disclaimer his information.

 

If Elliot is going to get his hands on this map, then I am refusing to construct one in the first place.

Good luck, guys.

B

 

Are you going to make a special trip to tune it?

 

This is exactly the kind of thing that boils my blood, if you're going to have someone that is good enough tune your engine why go to someone else to get it redone??? You looking to do map collecting?

Im sure B. is perfectly capable of tuning your engine for you now, and after you've broken it in, but if you want this other guy to do it, then have him make the complete tune then and dont waste B.'s time. Its almost certain that when you get 2 or more tuners (or mechanics, depending on the situation) work on your car/engine, 80% of the time you'll get a crappy running car anyway.

I go through this too often and its really frustrating sometimes, and specially in situations were the client doesnt even have enough time or doesnt want to pay for the dyno time required to tune the car properly, or wants you to get it done quickly.

Sorry about sounding like a dick here, but these are situations im all too familiar with that just **** me off. So im blowing off a little steam.

 

first off i didn't even ask for someone to give me a map at all. Just wanting to learn the different techniques people use to do the timing part of the tune since the fuel part basically just uses a wideband and get it to stoich or alittle rich but stay away from lean. Thought there might be something like that for the spark, but instead people just try to give maps away. Just trying to learn here instead of when someone asks about my car i just say i don't know what the means.

 

What?

 

I understand where you're coming from on this one, Claudio. But, I don't think Derek was directly asking me for a map to get the car running. Per his email, he was stating pretty much exactly what he's just responded with.

As far as my comment goes, I'm not about to let Elliot get his hands on any of my maps, especially the bridgeport stuff. I've spent 4 years working on that and I'm not about to just hand it off to him. I know what'll happen thereafter.

B

 

I see what your saying, but it doesn't really pertain to the advice I'm trying to reach. I guess i'll just never find out then if everyone thinks im trying to trade maps or whatever.

 

Some people share some don't. One of the reasons I respect Travis pastrona so much as another professional motocross racer he is one of the best in the world and yet would teach someone anything in the world. When he does a new trick he invites everyone over to learn it even his competitors. Just gives me insperation to share what I know and being a professional motocross racer people ask me for help all the time and it is nice to give the secrets away.

The point being is the dude is getting a motor and ECU and has no way to drive it around or brake it in to tune it. I do not possibly see how you can make a map never seeing the car and it be good to go drive hard and have a good time in. Someone is going to have to tune it for real in the car. We do not necessarily live in a place with tuners all around. If one is coming in it is probably a good idea to take advantage of it. Like I said are you going to come into town and tune the car for him?

And Claudio RX-7 **** you are you going to tune it completely? Who are you to come in hear and say people are asking people to tune there car and now tune it over the internet and then have another tuner personally do it then rune it? And you have the nerve to say your blood boils man I should bitch slap you. It's leg humpers like you that boil my blood.