djSL

iTrader: (5)

I finally got my itb set-up running and idling smoothly! However, it's currently running on MAP based tuning and I have some concerns with that.

1- the way my manifold and vacuum sources are set up, hitting the brakes fluctuates the MAP signal.
2- I live in a region with a lot of temperature and elevation changes.

3. I plan on porting the motor later and would prefer to have a map already set in this mode to help alleviate further issues the porting could cause with the next round of tuning.

That being said, I would like to get the car running with Alpha-N tuning. I know when I was speaking with Claudio, he mentioned there's some software issue with the e6x when tuning in this mode. After searching many forums, I haven't found any mention of this. Please note that I'm not doubting his word, but I've read and seen videos of cars running this tuning mode.

I've changed the tuning mode in the e6x from a 1 Bar Map sensor to TPS and the car immediately dies. It won't start back up either. I switch back to MAP and it's fine. So, my question is this: Would any of the Haltech Guru's in this forum care to look at my current good base map and modify it to get the car running in Alpha-N? Or at least provide some suggestions to get it to run in this mode?

djSL

iTrader: (5)

No dice? I'm hoping there is just something simple in the map that I'm missing. All of the fuel and timing values seem to convert properly when switching between modes.

RX7(613)

iTrader: (9)

I dont exactly remember, but i know when i switched from map based to alpha n with e6x ( was using the dos version) . I had to redoo my start up map . then it worked great.

what are you using to tune the e6x , 1.26 ahlwin or the dos software.

try zero throttle map to start up , this might help you.

RX7(613)

iTrader: (9)

happened to still have halwin on virtual pc, the map was still map based that you posted.

What TPS are you using, alpha N did not like the S4 Tps, and worked okay with S5. ( installed the haltech/ GM part afterwards ) and seemed to work.

What I would do :

1) set your TPS
2) switch to TPS sensing
3) enable zero throttle map
4) adjust below 900 rpm bars

See if it starts. If not, are you getting spark ? , if getting spark is fuel pump priming, fuel injectors firing ? .

What e6x are you using, a 2.5 intermal map unit , or the earlier models with no internal map. you can always try the dos software. it seemed to work pretty good.


Also what injector setup are you running, i saw you had batch injection vs staged.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

the s4 tps is narrow range, and stops reading after about 30 percent throttle. it cannot be used with A-N

djSL

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the replies. Using a newer bosch d style tps and halwinx 1.26. As mentioned, when in MAP mode, the car idles smooth. Rich but smooth. Using a non internal map unit with 2xID1000 cc injectors primary only injection (glse style). That's why injection was set to batch instead of sequential.


I posted the MAP based map as that is what has the car running well. All I've done to get it running in tps mode is switch the mode and try to adjust the fuel.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i would just double check that the injection time and ignition timing are the same between both maps at idle, as they will idle in different cells, as the Alpha N will idle at 0 throttle, and the MAP map will idle at some vacuum number

djSL

iTrader: (5)

I'll double check the corresponding values between the maps. Odds are something isn't matching up.

Edit: I checked both maps at the same time. Idle on my MAP based tune is between -8 and -9 psi. The ignition settings and fuel values appear to be pretty similar at 0% throttle to the values at the above idle vacuum value in the MAP tune. I did scale the injection time down within the TPS based map as it was a bit higher. I've also posted the TPS Map if anyone wants to take a look at it for funsies.

I noticed that I have the zero throttle map enabled within the TPS map. Is this adding additional fuel to the already set injection time at 0% throttle within the main fuel map? If so, that might be why it dies at that value..

RX7(613)

iTrader: (9)

if you have zero throttle map enabled, you need to tune it. Zero throttle map takes over, and the fueling values are taken from there.

it is not a compensation map.

The zero throttle map is accessed through the menu structure under the maps menu.
The zero throttle map is used with engines that use Manifold pressure load sensing but cannot
produce a stable manifold pressure signal at idle. The zero throttle map is used when the
throttle position reads 0% and applies a set amount of fuel in place of the fuel quantity
normally extracted for the base fuel map. The map has 16 bars distributed across engine
speed in the range 0rpm to 2000rpm and each bar represents a quantity of fuel measured in
milliseconds.

djSL

iTrader: (5)

Thank you for that informative reply! I guess my first course of action is to disable the zero throttle map and it get it to start off the main fuel map. Once I figure out where the car likes to idle with decent AFR's at zero throttle within the main fuel map I should be good to go!

I have a half-day off work tomorrow, so I'll give it a shot then.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

since the TPS has a 0 throttle on the main map, i'd think the zero throttle map is redundant.

the factory ecu's always use a zero throttle map, but with the haltech, especially the newer ones where you can move the load and rpm points, the zero throttle map isn't really needed. or i should say you can kind of make one in the main map with the newer ecu's

RX7(613)

iTrader: (9)

This is correct, If your TPS is working well and you zeroed it out. The zero throttle map is redundant. ( I ended up using it in past as i had some issues with my TPS setup and it would vary from 0% to 5 % while idling, changed TPS and worked great without the zero throttle map ).

djSL

iTrader: (5)

Fiddled with the car a bit today. Loaded up the TPS map and disabled the zero throttle map. The car starts everytime but won't idle long enough for my wideband to catch the AFR. For some reason, no matter how much I raise up the 0% bar of the map, my injector timing is staying around 2 m/s (according to the text engine data).

I wonder if I should try entering the values in the text fuel table instead. (maybe that's the glitch?)
---Nope. Fueling changes are reflected within the text map.

Could one of the auto correction maps being screwing with it?

Double edit: Got the car to start and hold a steady-ish 1k idle with an afr between 11-12(a little lumpy sounding, plugs are probably fouled). However, any time I hit the throttle harder than 10 or so percent, the rpm's go up and then plummet. If I don't let off the throttle when it falls, it dies. It also seems like the car struggles to smoothly rev around 2500 rpm. I'm guessing this is due to the massive amount of air going in and not enough fuel? Or does it have too much fuel? When this happens, the AFR's oscillate too quickly for me too catch.

Is there a secret I need to know for tuning ITB setups to overcome whatever this is?

I think the software error is that when in TPS mode, the 2D map isn't actively showing what your TPS % is at when pressing the throttle. It just stays at zero. The text engine page does display the TPS % actively.

RX7(613)

iTrader: (9)

I have limited experience with ITBs and rotary, but I know in zee honda world throttle compensation is huge with TPS tuning.

first thing i would do is get car to operating temperature,

while idling try to bring it up the rev range and have it come back without stalling.

then try low loads, and dont pay attention to wideband at this point, feel what the car likes .

when car is running, and you are revving up, put the 3d map,and hit home every second to see if the position marker moves accross the map.

or using the text map,


Cannot comment on buggy ness with e6x and alpha n in halwin 1.26, but it can have bugs. I personally always tried using the dos version. and would export to excel and 3d graph for map viewing and smoothing.

but always had some kind of issues with halwin 1.26, but it could of been the unit we were using.

RX7(613)

iTrader: (9)

I dont know if this applies here, but when tuning honda itbs with aem ems, i use a hybrid alpha n for fueling and map for ignition. Seems to work the best.

Dont know if that is an options with e6x. might be worth looking at .

djSL

iTrader: (5)

I was able to get the car up to operating temp but it still didn't like much throttle input while idling. From what I've read in the manual, the e6x is not capable of hybtid tuning. The only exception would be the zero throttle map/full throttle being enabled while in MAP based tuning.

I have tomorrow off so I'm going to tinker with it some more. I want it to be drive able by the 7th so I can limp it to the tuner.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

i would just start with the steady state, so idle, 1500rpm, 2000rpm, 2500rpm, etc. initially ignore the WB, and just set it to where it runs nicely. when you go back, with no load, anything between 1500-3500rpm, it should be able to do 14.5 or thereabouts.

i like to get the steady state stuff close, and then work on the transients later, its just how i approach it, not that its right or wrong. so my next step would be to go drive the car at 1500,2000,2500etc in 1st gear, then 2nd then 3rd, etc.

after that it actually is usually driving ok, and feel free to use the linearize function. i'd almost start with everything over 4000rpm and 70% throttle are 80% injector duty (needs a calculation, suggest a spreadsheet). then you know your idle/no load injector time and just linearize in between, then you can work through the map (which should be crazy rich).

or go to a mustang dyno, it lets you hold rpms, so then you can just tune by throttle position.

for timing, i'd suggest something really simple, at idle it should be whatever you picked (the stock -5, or 0 or +5), and then over say 2500-3000 rpm, you might just set it to 20btdc. between idle and where it hits 20, it should want something of a curve, i'd just linearize it for now.

however you do it, it really helps to have a procedure, and then do everything you can to minimize variables, as there are a lot of maps to tune

djSL

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for the reply. So far, the timing is left at the stock values as listed in the map above. I知 not comfortable touching the timing myself.

If I知 understand you correctly, I should bring the rpms to the levels suggested and get it running smooth with no load and light throttle input. This makes sense and I値l definitely take a crack at it tomorrow. Once I can drive it at low load, I値l bring it straight to the tuner. I enjoy learning this stuff but I知 not super confident in my abilities.

j9fd3s

iTrader: (3)

that is kind of why you need to try to only do one thing at a time, which is hard because each map is 32x32, and then there are 15 of them = 15,000 cells to tune. this is why it is nice to be able to fill in some of those cells with either values from the factory manuals, or something that is "reasonable" or a good start.

even with that, there is still the 32x32 fuel table, 1024 cells, so you still need some logical process to go through them. thankfully, we know we don't want to drive the injectors harder than 80%, and we can calculate what 80% is, and just input that value, and since its a rough tune, we can input that for anything more than say 60% throttle (mazda considers 80% or more full throttle). if we've sized our injectors right, it will be really rich, so we don't need to worry about that too much. timing is similar, btw, we know it'll make peak power somewhere between 18-27btdc, so we can do 18 to start with.

for the rest of the cells, we can hold RPM steady and tune each tps increment, or hold the tps steady and tune to the rpm it ends up at. either way works, the trick is to have a simple and logical method.

djSL

iTrader: (5)

THUMBS WAY UP! I gave it another go today but for some reason the car hated it. Switched back to MAP based and tweaked some fueling and was able to drive the car around the block (slid in the snow the whole way). Car felt low on power but I assume its due to the safe timing and richness.

I'll try messing with some more of the values while in offline mode. If I can't get it to work, I think I will just drive it to the tuner in MAP mode and see if they can work their magic. I picked up 3 sets of plugs so they can get it done.