TRWeiss1

iTrader: (20)

^ I think that is dependent upon how much (if any) premix is used. I'm hoping mine will look good though.

peejay

By the way - what's the word on Hurley seals for non turbo applications? I see they have their seals on super-mega-sale. $200 a set might be cheap enough for me to build another 12A.

I forgot to add in the notes for that pic - non turbo application. ~200hp street ported 13BT with 9.4 rotors. Pics were from when I had it apart for the bridge porting.

D Walker

iTrader: (1)

One of the things about chatter with the RA (or any other seals used) is that there are several things that can cuase seals to chatter and without a fair amount of information regarding the build, tune, and use I am hesitant to condemn them. I have the RA seals in one engine that overboosted/detonated enough to crack the rear iron, but the apex seals have stayed together. Many hours fo very hard track time and compression did not drop.
I am however going to try the Goopy seals in a couple of motors I think. Two reasons behind this- they are supposed to break in virtually instantaneously, which is something that I think is important, mostly because I honestly believe that the fuel/oil dilution caused by seals that take an excessive length of time to break in contribute to many issues the rotary "suffers" from including chatter, scuffing, etc. I cant prove it but I think Mazda uses some sort of break in compound similar to what some ring manufacturers are now using for an ultra-quick ring seat.
Second reason I am using the Goopy seals is that I think they might have the right balance between softness/malleablilty and hardness. Neither too soft nor too brittle. I am sure other seals are similar, but we will see who these seals work out.

FWIW I would MUCH rather replace worn-out "soft" seals than replace cracked and broken "hard" seals and the damage they leave behind.
As to how quickly soft or hard seals wear, I can tell you this is 100% related to the condition of the housings they are in. Even a "slightly worn" grooved housing will very quickly wear out seals, and hard seals could very likely gall the grooved chrome and cause pitting, no matter how much your pre-lubing.

Just my thoughts.

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

waiting for djseven to chime in on the ALS seals... Its what i'll be using for sure.

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

POST NUMBER 911!! haha

just startn

iTrader: (33)

and your talking about seals

thetastelingers

iTrader: (1)

I am curious to hear about ALS also. I have a coolant seal gone, so will be either rebuilding or going LSX.

SPEED_NYC

iTrader: (3)

I use seals from www.rxparts.com and love them! several guys on the forum are running them with great results. AnthonyNYC, Enzo, ErnieT, ect..

these are soft seals that do not cause any chatter marks or damage to rotor housings, and will withstand serious boost and even detonation without any warpage. I know ppl running 60 + psi on these seals. you guys should check them out..

djseven

iTrader: (56)

RA super seals, great seal...for those who dont care about their housing life. Still a great seal but it is proven at this point they wear the housings, I dont care what other shops say. Ive seen it time and time again. If you only drive your car 2-3k miles a year or only race your car they are great, probably the best bang for the buck. Ive had customers track cars with these seals and take some serious abuse. I have been running them in my personal fd for the last 2 years. Seals seam to make less compression compared to factory seals, Atkins, and ALS. They reach peak compression within a couple thousand miles then slowly start to lose compression. The seals in my engine have taken a serious beating, I run 15lbs all day everyday on the stock 550/850 injectors with water meth seeing 90%+ injector duty cycles and the seals hold up like a champ.

The 3mm Aviations are even stronger but usually eat housings within 10k miles. It isnt chatter, it will look like you ran 50 grit sandpaper around the housings.

I dont have much first hand experience with their 2mm Classics but most seem to like them.

Atkins are great cheap alternative that make really good compression and can take decent abuse. However, they still suffer from breaking near the pointed end of the long seal(2 piece) when detonated like the factory seals. They dont seem to shatter as bad as the factory seals though but kinda hard to compare as each engine is abused differently.

Mazda 3mms, nothing but good results from these but a little expensive and few run 3mm anymore these days.

ALS-Obviously, these are what I prefer. I wish I had something bad to say about them but I dont. I dont have any pics of what they do to the housings simply because no customers have blown them that I am aware of. Keep in mind most of my customers are 300-500hp guys runn 20psi or less. Compression on first start is always great with these and I have heard no complaints of hot start issues with these. Frankly, I dont have much longterm feedback because you never hear from a customer unless something is wrong.

rxparts.com seals- not tried them but imagine they are great seals and probably extremely similar to the ALS seals. Looking at the names that run them and vouch for them I would say its safe to say they are a great seal also.

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

I personally have been using the ALS in my last engine build. I didn't have many miles on it (less than 1000) before I blew it, again.

But, after installing a new intercooler and bunch of stuff over the winter, I either blew off or forgot a wastegate line, overboosted the engine to 25+ psi on 91 pump, and cracked both front and rear irons at the dowels. Seals are 100% perfect, never even lost compression.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

another engine that would have been saved if overboost fuel cut had been set. 2psi higher than your target boost is all you need

flaco

iTrader: (7)

Trots*88TII-AE*

iTrader: (11)

Yea, thanks arghx for your insightful contribution on apex seal choice...

mannykiller

iTrader: (93)

He's right...and I agree... sometimes you have to learn the hard way.

Ryan123

iTrader: (3)

Just to bring this thread back vs. starting a new one, has anyone used/is using the RA OMP adapter? How does it work and what comes with it?

Monkman33

iTrader: (28)

I have one. It looks to be well made. A lot of aviation guys that run rotary engines run them.

I have yet to install it. Still building my engine.

As for what it comes with. it is about an inch think plate that goes between the block and the omp. there is then a fitting tapped into it that you connect your separate oil reservoir to. Done.

ceramic seals

Go nrs ceramics seals 1 pc they are the best money can buy.

ceramic seals

Als and stock oem will not handle big boost like cermaics will.

With cermaics the can handle more boost than any other seal,dont wear rotor houseing make better compression then oem matter of a fact i reacon the would make more compressioin then any other seal ya can buy.

They dont wear,but if ya have something go wrong like wireing issues can lead to major damage.

Ya get what ya pay for when it comes to apex seals.

One other thing to when useing ceramics mix 100 to 1 premix in the fuel

Ryan123

iTrader: (3)

Would you be interested in seeing a OMP adapter kit, one thats just "plug and play" and comes with everything just needs to be installed?

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

+2 You don't tune with fuel cut.

ErnieT

iTrader: (2)

You, sir, are flat out WRONG. When the steel seal warps, you will live to play another day. When the brittle *** ceramic gives, it destroys the entire motor and turbo. Ceramic's have their plus side, but the negitives far outweigh any reason to use them. They don't make better compression either. This again is BS. You are correct about not wearing on rotor housings, but if you use proper pre-mix and keep everything cool, you'll be much better with any steel seal.

ceramic seals

I run ceramics and my motor has done 3500 km now on 20pd boost makeing 501 rwhp and makes better compression on cermaics then it did with steel.

The oem ones i had in the motor before this did 2500 km and smashed a rotor houseing and nealy f up the turbo to.

Thank god it drove it self in the houseing and rotor.If i new how to put up pics in here id show ya all i have the rotor and houseing in the shed lol for proff.

With mazda oem 2 pc seals it made 100 psi on a big ported job large ep and now with ceramics 1 pc seals it makes 110psi on front and rear rotors and riseing,thats not bullshit ive seen it for my own eyes on same port same everthing.

How ya explain that,ceramics dont get brittle they dont warp ya just need to know abit about clearances and tollerances,and a good engine builder.

I dont care what anyone thinks i know the facts ill back my self with nrs ceramics any day thats why i use them now,i will never go to any other apex seals again.

Take it how ya want i dont care records are made with ceramics seals lemans 787b won in 91 from running cermaic seals because steel seals coulden hold up 24hrs.

I was like you till i did a lot of reseach about a lot of diffrent types of apex seals i hear it all the time these are **** seals they are **** seals i dont realy care no more i know what works and what dont.

Ive seen a lot of apex seals fail due to crap seals like pts als oem and the list goes on.

My advise is free im saying what works and what dont think what ya want i dont care.

I know a engine builder that is still back in the times they think they know it all and still got no idea.

A bloke from where i live he uses pts seals all the time and there just **** i went to see him about 3 weeks ago at his workshop and the cars got the motor out off it again due to bent ****,only 12 months later back for a nother rebuild

On pump gas pts seals cant handle no more than 13psi otherwise the will bend there to soft.

Thats why if ya use pts seals ya need water injection and a good cdi system to run more boost and be safe.

Im only writeing here because im sick of seeing people with **** engines that go bang months later because they dont use the right seals.

If ya cant afford ceramics get mazda oem seals


Ernie t what seals you use

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

I think that we should add seal choice between turbo and N/A application. I agree that for the average joe that does not know how to tune and is running a turbo that the ALS or RXparts seals are the best choice as if you mess up with a tune the seal will most likely just bend thus saving the irons, housings, turbo, etc.

But I will say that for a N/A application the ceramic seal is the best choice because there is virtually no wear and they retain the most compression and are very light. Yes, the cost is higher but you can use the same seal in multiple rebuilds if neccessary and it's almost impossible breaking one from detonation on a N/A motor. I'm not saying it can't happen, as I'm sure there is someone out there that shouldn't even be driving a car, that could lean one out bad enough to cause it to break. lol

I will also say that for a master tuner the ceramics will make the most power on a turbo application as they make more compression especially the two piece design and that is proven.

ceramic seals

This here is a prime example of ALS seals what the do.

ultimatejay

iTrader: (1)

Yes, but if he had ceramics the ceramics would have probably broken and taken out the housings, irons and turbo. It's all in the tuner and how much you want to push the engine/tune.

If I was going to push a turbo tune to the limit, I would use a bendable apex seal to save money on parts. If I was going to keep a safe tune on a turbo, I would use ceramics.

I would definetely use ceramics if money permits on a N/A motor first choice and then if I didn't have the money I would use carbon.