What Apex seal to use?
03-08-11, 08:42 PM
#126
It is on point. I understand exactly how the rotary engine works, and why it does, or does not, make power.
There are obviously other things at work as well such as compression ratios, timing, port timing, etc. that have an effect.
Also, I do not believe you understand the actual physics of how an engine works. Doesnt matter how many pages of material I write or examples I use I doubt you will come to understand the reality of the situation. Thats fine.
Oh, and I cannot reveal which race car used those rotors and went slower, as I am probably not supposed to even know about it.
I WILL tell you that I was not kidding about Titanium rotors and them being 10K, and I know of several reasons aluminum rotors for road race cars was abandoned, among them the lack of torque to drive out of the corners. Lesson for you- corner exit speed is the MOST important thing to have in a race car. Faster out of the corner, faster down the straight, faster lap times. Those of us that have raced a momentum car understand exactly how this works.
There are obviously other things at work as well such as compression ratios, timing, port timing, etc. that have an effect.
Also, I do not believe you understand the actual physics of how an engine works. Doesnt matter how many pages of material I write or examples I use I doubt you will come to understand the reality of the situation. Thats fine.
Oh, and I cannot reveal which race car used those rotors and went slower, as I am probably not supposed to even know about it.
I WILL tell you that I was not kidding about Titanium rotors and them being 10K, and I know of several reasons aluminum rotors for road race cars was abandoned, among them the lack of torque to drive out of the corners. Lesson for you- corner exit speed is the MOST important thing to have in a race car. Faster out of the corner, faster down the straight, faster lap times. Those of us that have raced a momentum car understand exactly how this works.
You cannot reveal the supposed drag car in question because there was none though I'm sure it existed in the bizarro physical universe inside your head.
I had given you the benefit of the doubt but you have officially become someone to ignore because you are full of crap and won't admit it and even worse, probably won't even learn from it. Continue to believe what you will and keep up your momentum
03-08-11, 08:49 PM
#127
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Have you raced a car? If so. where and what? I will be at Road Atlanta running an RX-8 this weekend- where will you be?
Have you built an engine? Have you done development work specifically dealing with rotational mass in an engine? Do you have ANY proof the crap you are spewing has ANY bearing on reality other than a textbook? Please, educate me if you do, otherwise you should probably listen.
Do you understand HOW the inertia works in and engine? because what your saying, you do not understand, at all, how ANY engine works let alone how a rotary engine works. Again, your applying some basic physics that is true on a basic level, but there is a point the rotors get too light, feel free to keep arguing and proving you have no idea WTF your talking about.
Once again- have you driven a car with super liteweight rotor on a track? If not, I suggest you back up until you do.
Have you built an engine? Have you done development work specifically dealing with rotational mass in an engine? Do you have ANY proof the crap you are spewing has ANY bearing on reality other than a textbook? Please, educate me if you do, otherwise you should probably listen.
Do you understand HOW the inertia works in and engine? because what your saying, you do not understand, at all, how ANY engine works let alone how a rotary engine works. Again, your applying some basic physics that is true on a basic level, but there is a point the rotors get too light, feel free to keep arguing and proving you have no idea WTF your talking about.
Once again- have you driven a car with super liteweight rotor on a track? If not, I suggest you back up until you do.
03-08-11, 10:15 PM
#128
I disagree with this. There's nothing wrong with him taking the necessary precautions. Any mistakes he makes wont cost him a complete rebuild by using the RA's 1st. After he gets comfortable tuning then he can switch seals if he chooses. I would take the exact same approach because I like leanring and doing stuff myself. You can't learn anything always paying someone else. Then your at that persons mercy when you need to change something (not me). DIY'ers don't mind pulling their engines apart from time to time. Hell I've put together a usable o-ring kit so I can break my engine down whenever I want (and have done so 3 times last year already for experimenting reasons).
And to continue with your point, if he was doing it from a learning stand point, what will this teach him? Detonation does NOT have to be audible for it to break a seal, so how will he know he's where he needs to be? To be completely honest with you, blowing up an engine can teach you SO so much more in the long run if you just take a lot of time to "read" the metallurgy and understand it.
I am not knocking the DIYs but his way seems like a huge waste of time and it wont teach him anything...
-J
03-08-11, 10:26 PM
#129
No, I said that too light a rotor and you lose the ability to get out of the hole- in otherwords low-end power or torque. This has been PROVEN. Argue all you want, but your not correct in your ASSumption.
We both know what happens when you put a 7.5lb flywheel on a car, if you dont, the back up until you do know. I HAVE driven multiple cars with carbon/carbon 5" Tiltons, and they suck to get moving.
In fact, they were so light the engine would stall at lift throttle on corner entry. In that case it was a trade off between getting the highest RPM possible out of the motor and sacrificing a bit of pull on corner exit. Once the RPM level was regulated down and the gearbox limited to specific ratios, the 5" clutches went away.
A 4.5" clutch on a 4 rotor is only possible because of the increased rotational mass of the 4 rotors, in other words the flywheel EFFECT- reading- its fundemental!
We both know what happens when you put a 7.5lb flywheel on a car, if you dont, the back up until you do know. I HAVE driven multiple cars with carbon/carbon 5" Tiltons, and they suck to get moving.
In fact, they were so light the engine would stall at lift throttle on corner entry. In that case it was a trade off between getting the highest RPM possible out of the motor and sacrificing a bit of pull on corner exit. Once the RPM level was regulated down and the gearbox limited to specific ratios, the 5" clutches went away.
A 4.5" clutch on a 4 rotor is only possible because of the increased rotational mass of the 4 rotors, in other words the flywheel EFFECT- reading- its fundemental!
So much dribble in this post you are having troubles believing your own BS. See below.
Have you ever driven an EPROD car with a 12A with the cut to hell rotors? you cant get it moving and corner exit is all about maintaining momentum, because if you slow down at all, its over for you.
Have you built an engine? Have you done development work specifically dealing with rotational mass in an engine?
Have you built an engine? Have you done development work specifically dealing with rotational mass in an engine?
This and that here and there for sometime but it doesn't matter because this has no bearing on your lack of understanding about the subject at hand. Besides, I don't need to qualify myself to you as you felt the need to do with me.
Btw, I'm not impressed.
Do you understand HOW the inertia works in and engine? because what your saying, you do not understand, at all, how ANY engine works let alone how a rotary engine works. Again, your applying some basic physics that is true on a basic level, but there is a point the rotors get too light, feel free to keep arguing and proving you have no idea WTF your talking about.
Listen, just because you run/work in some rinky-dink shop that puts together half-assed cars doesn't make your opinion or assumptions of how things work as fact. With an attitude like yours, that of one not willing to learn and being stupidly stubborn about it, I predict you will not last long. Seen it many times before.
03-08-11, 10:35 PM
#130
Did I say you needed 45lb rotors? No, I said that too light a rotor and you lose the ability to get out of the hole- in otherwords low-end power or torque. This has been PROVEN. Argue all you want, but your not correct in your ASSumption.
Cheaper? Where did I say anything about cheaper? I said there was issues with them, and we both know they are. Why are you argueing the point? We both know what happens when you put a 7.5lb flywheel on a car, if you dont, the back up until you do know. I HAVE driven multiple cars with carbon/carbon 5" Tiltons, and they suck to get moving. In fact, they were so light the engine would stall at lift throttle on corner entry. In that case it was a trade off between getting the highest RPM possible out of the motor and sacrificing a bit of pull on corner exit. Once the RPM level was regulated down and the gearbox limited to specific ratios, the 5" clutches went away.
We both know the sacrifices made there, dont try and play a card you dont have. a 4.5" clutch on a 4 rotor is only possible because of the increased rotational mass of the 4 rotors, in other words the flywheel EFFECT- reading- its fundemental! Try it with a 2 rotor- I dare you.
Well, HP can be gained for a variety of reasons. If you know as much as you think then you know EXACTLY which car I mentioned above, and you know they are now back on OEM rotors, and you know why they are back on them.
I also believe the first ever set of E&J rotors were not quite as light as others they made ofter, although I could be wrong. I actually looked into the rotors, and asked people who are using them, so I am not talking out of my *** or off what I read on the internet. Obviously for road racing and not drag racing, but the reasons are still the same.
Have you ever driven an EPROD car with a 12A with the cut to hell rotors? you cant get it moving and corner exit is all about maintaining momentum, because if you slow down at all, its over for you.
Cheaper? Where did I say anything about cheaper? I said there was issues with them, and we both know they are. Why are you argueing the point? We both know what happens when you put a 7.5lb flywheel on a car, if you dont, the back up until you do know. I HAVE driven multiple cars with carbon/carbon 5" Tiltons, and they suck to get moving. In fact, they were so light the engine would stall at lift throttle on corner entry. In that case it was a trade off between getting the highest RPM possible out of the motor and sacrificing a bit of pull on corner exit. Once the RPM level was regulated down and the gearbox limited to specific ratios, the 5" clutches went away.
We both know the sacrifices made there, dont try and play a card you dont have. a 4.5" clutch on a 4 rotor is only possible because of the increased rotational mass of the 4 rotors, in other words the flywheel EFFECT- reading- its fundemental! Try it with a 2 rotor- I dare you.
Well, HP can be gained for a variety of reasons. If you know as much as you think then you know EXACTLY which car I mentioned above, and you know they are now back on OEM rotors, and you know why they are back on them.
I also believe the first ever set of E&J rotors were not quite as light as others they made ofter, although I could be wrong. I actually looked into the rotors, and asked people who are using them, so I am not talking out of my *** or off what I read on the internet. Obviously for road racing and not drag racing, but the reasons are still the same.
Have you ever driven an EPROD car with a 12A with the cut to hell rotors? you cant get it moving and corner exit is all about maintaining momentum, because if you slow down at all, its over for you.
You are very saddly mistaken in your thinking but are to stuck up your own "weekend-boy-racer-rx8kid-I-know-about-race-cars-and-engines-because-I-have-driven-on-a-track-y0" ***, that no matter what anyone else tells you it wouldn't make a difference. I sure hope you have a nice comfortable pad under you when you "bubble" pops, because you are getting higher and higher every post
And for the record chief, the reason the car that YOU are talking about switched rotors was NOT because of the wieght. Get your facts straight, it was because of the seal clearances that they were using on the aluminum rotors was WRONG.
And yes, reading is fundemental... Maybe you should reread some of what has been told to you and let it "soak in" that helium filled head of yours before you post on the matter.
And thank you for the advice on trying out the small diameter clutch pack on a 13B, I think I will...
-J
03-08-11, 11:36 PM
#132
It is on point. I understand exactly how the rotary engine works, and why it does, or does not, make power.
There are obviously other things at work as well such as compression ratios, timing, port timing, etc. that have an effect.
Also, I do not believe you understand the actual physics of how an engine works. Doesnt matter how many pages of material I write or examples I use I doubt you will come to understand the reality of the situation. Thats fine.
Oh, and I cannot reveal which race car used those rotors and went slower, as I am probably not supposed to even know about it.
I WILL tell you that I was not kidding about Titanium rotors and them being 10K, and I know of several reasons aluminum rotors for road race cars was abandoned, among them the lack of torque to drive out of the corners. Lesson for you- corner exit speed is the MOST important thing to have in a race car. Faster out of the corner, faster down the straight, faster lap times. Those of us that have raced a momentum car understand exactly how this works.
There are obviously other things at work as well such as compression ratios, timing, port timing, etc. that have an effect.
Also, I do not believe you understand the actual physics of how an engine works. Doesnt matter how many pages of material I write or examples I use I doubt you will come to understand the reality of the situation. Thats fine.
Oh, and I cannot reveal which race car used those rotors and went slower, as I am probably not supposed to even know about it.
I WILL tell you that I was not kidding about Titanium rotors and them being 10K, and I know of several reasons aluminum rotors for road race cars was abandoned, among them the lack of torque to drive out of the corners. Lesson for you- corner exit speed is the MOST important thing to have in a race car. Faster out of the corner, faster down the straight, faster lap times. Those of us that have raced a momentum car understand exactly how this works.
I also agree with Gorilla RE on the rotors and flywheel.
I also agree that it would be foolish to tune a motor on RA seals and then break it all apart and put oem seals in. That's just plain stupidity. If your learning how to tune then just use the unbreakable seals from RXparts or ALS. Like mentioned earlier, you can have a perfect tune but if your fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, Ecm, fuel injectors, fuel filter, etc, goes bad you can detonate and if you have OEM seals in kiss most of your motor good bye.
03-08-11, 11:43 PM
#133
I don't think the Titanium rotors will work because titanium has a reletively high expansion rate.
I also agree with Gorilla RE on the rotors and flywheel.
I also agree that it would be foolish to tune a motor on RA seals and then break it all apart and put oem seals in. That's just plain stupidity. If your learning how to tune then just use the unbreakable seals from RXparts or ALS. Like mentioned earlier, you can have a perfect tune but if your fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, Ecm, fuel injectors, fuel filter, etc, goes bad you can detonate and if you have OEM seals in kiss most of your motor good bye.
I also agree with Gorilla RE on the rotors and flywheel.
I also agree that it would be foolish to tune a motor on RA seals and then break it all apart and put oem seals in. That's just plain stupidity. If your learning how to tune then just use the unbreakable seals from RXparts or ALS. Like mentioned earlier, you can have a perfect tune but if your fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, Ecm, fuel injectors, fuel filter, etc, goes bad you can detonate and if you have OEM seals in kiss most of your motor good bye.
-J
03-08-11, 11:52 PM
#134
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Alright thanks that’s why I’m asking the questions now before I start anything. =] I have access to a machine shop and all the tools I need to its not the same as an average Do It yourselfer.
You said make sure I Premix, but I was going to run a custom OMP adapter to pump two stroke oil because after searching and reading I feel that it offers better oil distribution and consist than premix. Would you agree?
You said make sure I Premix, but I was going to run a custom OMP adapter to pump two stroke oil because after searching and reading I feel that it offers better oil distribution and consist than premix. Would you agree?
Btw, sorry to get in the middle of the bickering. I don't know how you guys have energy for it...... personally I have too many damn engines to port and build to stick in my 2 cents. Carry on
03-08-11, 11:57 PM
#135
I'd recommend doing both--- OMP and Premix. I've been doing this at 500 rwhp with my track/road FD for a few years now with success. RA Black seals..... no need to 'swap' them out either.
Btw, sorry to get in the middle of the bickering. I don't know how you guys have energy for it...... personally I have too many damn engines to port and build to stick in my 2 cents. Carry on
Btw, sorry to get in the middle of the bickering. I don't know how you guys have energy for it...... personally I have too many damn engines to port and build to stick in my 2 cents. Carry on
03-09-11, 12:57 AM
#136
I don't think the " tune on soft seals then swap" method is a bad idea at all but not to the extent the op is thinking. I have seen it several time where people had dropped all their coin on a over the top build with ceramic seals and ended up trashing a lot of parts! After the car is up and running and has established a good track record (freshen up time) then go with a more durable stock seal. But then again i am a drag racer, as the boost goes up so does the wear. If i could get a full season out of a set of seals i would be happy. It gives me something to do over the winter.
03-09-11, 01:22 AM
#137
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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On my e-85 fueld turbo RX7 (FC with FD motor)I have been premix-only at this point, but have a modified FD OMP on the motor now as well. The higher the alcohol content, the greater the premix ratio I have been using, and thus far I have no complaints at all, the motor will be torn down after the Hillclimb this year to see what the wear has been, so I will have a better idea of it then.
03-09-11, 11:41 AM
#138
I can't speak for Goodfellas but my experience is that when running a car hard the extra premix goes a long way to keeping the wear down and motors live longer, especially if you live in the land of alcohol blended fuel. In speaking with another racer who has spent over 100K building RX8 engines, he has come to the conclusion that premixing and using the OMP fed from an external reservior is really the best answer. Without the OMP and just premixing he was getting severe motor failure with some motors lasting less than 10-12 hours, with the OMP/premixing he is now getting 20-25 hours or more before rebuild time.
On my e-85 fueld turbo RX7 (FC with FD motor)I have been premix-only at this point, but have a modified FD OMP on the motor now as well. The higher the alcohol content, the greater the premix ratio I have been using, and thus far I have no complaints at all, the motor will be torn down after the Hillclimb this year to see what the wear has been, so I will have a better idea of it then.
On my e-85 fueld turbo RX7 (FC with FD motor)I have been premix-only at this point, but have a modified FD OMP on the motor now as well. The higher the alcohol content, the greater the premix ratio I have been using, and thus far I have no complaints at all, the motor will be torn down after the Hillclimb this year to see what the wear has been, so I will have a better idea of it then.
Oh, and if you have to use this much oil injection to combat wear issues then your apex seals are junk or your housings are junk. Go out and buy some decent seals. One ounce per gallon should be plenty of premix for any application.
03-09-11, 12:04 PM
#139
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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03-09-11, 02:55 PM
#142
The OMP injectors squirt oil into the center of the rotor housing--- the same path that the apex seals take as they go over the spark plugs and exhaust port. It's more specific, while premixing mixes with the fuel. I think of it as 'more complete coverage'..... sounds like a Tampax commercial
03-09-11, 04:21 PM
#143
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Ok, I guess it's whatever works for you. I removed my omp because I dont trust it and have been premixing a little over 1ounce per gallon and have been running the same engine at 10k rpms on the drag strip for the last 3 years and the engine keeps getting stronger with no problems. Actually it has been dyno proven that more premix adds horsepower. Too much will foul plugs very easily though so its a learning curve.
03-09-11, 05:00 PM
#144
I'd recommend doing both--- OMP and Premix. I've been doing this at 500 rwhp with my track/road FD for a few years now with success. RA Black seals..... no need to 'swap' them out either.
Btw, sorry to get in the middle of the bickering. I don't know how you guys have energy for it...... personally I have too many damn engines to port and build to stick in my 2 cents. Carry on
Btw, sorry to get in the middle of the bickering. I don't know how you guys have energy for it...... personally I have too many damn engines to port and build to stick in my 2 cents. Carry on
Have you noticed any differnece between just the pump and the pump & premix?
I can't speak for Goodfellas but my experience is that when running a car hard the extra premix goes a long way to keeping the wear down and motors live longer, especially if you live in the land of alcohol blended fuel. In speaking with another racer who has spent over 100K building RX8 engines, he has come to the conclusion that premixing and using the OMP fed from an external reservior is really the best answer. Without the OMP and just premixing he was getting severe motor failure with some motors lasting less than 10-12 hours, with the OMP/premixing he is now getting 20-25 hours or more before rebuild time.
On my e-85 fueld turbo RX7 (FC with FD motor)I have been premix-only at this point, but have a modified FD OMP on the motor now as well. The higher the alcohol content, the greater the premix ratio I have been using, and thus far I have no complaints at all, the motor will be torn down after the Hillclimb this year to see what the wear has been, so I will have a better idea of it then.
On my e-85 fueld turbo RX7 (FC with FD motor)I have been premix-only at this point, but have a modified FD OMP on the motor now as well. The higher the alcohol content, the greater the premix ratio I have been using, and thus far I have no complaints at all, the motor will be torn down after the Hillclimb this year to see what the wear has been, so I will have a better idea of it then.
I don't think the " tune on soft seals then swap" method is a bad idea at all but not to the extent the op is thinking. I have seen it several time where people had dropped all their coin on a over the top build with ceramic seals and ended up trashing a lot of parts! After the car is up and running and has established a good track record (freshen up time) then go with a more durable stock seal. But then again i am a drag racer, as the boost goes up so does the wear. If i could get a full season out of a set of seals i would be happy. It gives me something to do over the winter.
The OMP injectors squirt oil into the center of the rotor housing--- the same path that the apex seals take as they go over the spark plugs and exhaust port. It's more specific, while premixing mixes with the fuel. I think of it as 'more complete coverage'..... sounds like a Tampax commercial
03-10-11, 02:09 AM
#147
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I read some of this, and I got a huge...
So basically, OEM seals may be good or great for just a basic rebuild with barely anything done to the engine; be it inside or outside. With the exception of a great tuner and a builder with enough experience to have consistent success with his/her engines, no matter the conditions they are put through. Be it N/A or boosted. These are guaranteed long life if the engine is built almost if not to perfection.
Soft seals may be used on beginner engines that are getting boosted, or ported really well, or bad, and they will be tested a lot. So if a seal fails, it is the only thing that breaks or bends; no extensive damage for the most part. These can be tracked and daily driven for some time.
Hard seals may be for engines that spend most of their time on a track or dyno. This seal slowly eats housings, but it makes up in being able to take all the punishment one can throw at it. Hard seals don't usually last long; unless a person gets the"one in a million" set of seals that have a good balance to last a while.
Ceramic seals seem to be the next best thing, but this might be true if this type of seal is paired with a housing coated in a ceramic paint. This seal has its ups and downs. In N/A or a boosted application, from what has been said it seems to be un-predictable. What wins on Sunday sales on Monday.
Am I on to something?
Soft seals may be used on beginner engines that are getting boosted, or ported really well, or bad, and they will be tested a lot. So if a seal fails, it is the only thing that breaks or bends; no extensive damage for the most part. These can be tracked and daily driven for some time.
Hard seals may be for engines that spend most of their time on a track or dyno. This seal slowly eats housings, but it makes up in being able to take all the punishment one can throw at it. Hard seals don't usually last long; unless a person gets the"one in a million" set of seals that have a good balance to last a while.
Ceramic seals seem to be the next best thing, but this might be true if this type of seal is paired with a housing coated in a ceramic paint. This seal has its ups and downs. In N/A or a boosted application, from what has been said it seems to be un-predictable. What wins on Sunday sales on Monday.
Am I on to something?
03-10-11, 12:54 PM
#149
wow! so much has happened since i last checked in on this thread.
i've used RA Classics and OEM seals so far. i don't have anything bad to report about the RA seals thus far, but at the same time, that engine still runs fine and my life is as such that i probably won't have the luxury of tearing it down "just to check" anytime soon.
the engine i'm currently building is getting Atkins seals. to be honest, they were not my first choice, but i think they'll serve me for what i need to get done this time around. overall, i think we live in a time with several viable apex seal options that cover an array of applications. up to this point, i've built only N/A engines and ceramics have been calling me since about 2006. i plan to start transitioning in more radical ports and turbo engines, and personally, i'm a huge fan of the RXParts and ALS seals for turbo applications. i think one of the problems is some people get too caught up in watching the next guy.
clearly!
sorry ... i just couldn't resist.
on a serious note, i think you missed something in all of this. if your post is what you really got from this thread, read it again.
it's best to simply look at the whole picture and choose your seal accordingly. by the whole picture, i mean: application (use, power levels, boost levels, etc.), builder, tuner and of course, budget. it would probably help a great deal if you laid all your options out on paper and made a chart with advantages, disadvantages, prices, etc. and then eliminated one after the other based on YOUR needs. at the end of the day, you're the one who has to live with the engine/car, so it doesn't much matter what diabolical1 or ErnieT or GoodfellaFD3S or anyone else uses. recommendations are just that and nothing else, you have to do what's best for you.
i've used RA Classics and OEM seals so far. i don't have anything bad to report about the RA seals thus far, but at the same time, that engine still runs fine and my life is as such that i probably won't have the luxury of tearing it down "just to check" anytime soon.
the engine i'm currently building is getting Atkins seals. to be honest, they were not my first choice, but i think they'll serve me for what i need to get done this time around. overall, i think we live in a time with several viable apex seal options that cover an array of applications. up to this point, i've built only N/A engines and ceramics have been calling me since about 2006. i plan to start transitioning in more radical ports and turbo engines, and personally, i'm a huge fan of the RXParts and ALS seals for turbo applications. i think one of the problems is some people get too caught up in watching the next guy.
clearly!
sorry ... i just couldn't resist.
on a serious note, i think you missed something in all of this. if your post is what you really got from this thread, read it again.
it's best to simply look at the whole picture and choose your seal accordingly. by the whole picture, i mean: application (use, power levels, boost levels, etc.), builder, tuner and of course, budget. it would probably help a great deal if you laid all your options out on paper and made a chart with advantages, disadvantages, prices, etc. and then eliminated one after the other based on YOUR needs. at the end of the day, you're the one who has to live with the engine/car, so it doesn't much matter what diabolical1 or ErnieT or GoodfellaFD3S or anyone else uses. recommendations are just that and nothing else, you have to do what's best for you.