What Apex seal to use?
What Apex seal to use?
I cannot seem find to a thread posting the popular companies without arguable product discussions. I'm trying to match the correct person with correct apex seal and add feedback from the community along with the compines to help someone find the right apex seal. So here we go.
DISCLAIMER: None of the following information is original to me, I compiled the information from forums, including this one. This is to use for someone who wants to see a quick comparison for the popular companies side by side. I’m using general information and product information along with community feedback.
Rotary Aviation(RA): Makes kits used biased on engine types seal thickness and must have add-on’s to promote longevity.
Super Seals
Information:"RA Super Seals are made of the same base material as classic RA seals. They then go through an extra process to make the seals even more resistant to high heat conditions. This secondary treatment process gives them a distinctive black color." - Rotary Aviation (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm)
Use: High power, Large boosted applications comes in both 2mm and 3mm
Feedback: From many threads I have read it seems that 80% of people said, that the seals took detonation extremely well but left “chatter marks" and sever scaring to the housings, however; the life of the seals were short lived because of compression. A few threads reportedly had flat spring.
Conclusion: Good for large horse power where detonation will be a problem and would prove good to a drag car.
Classic Seals:
Information:"RA Classic Springs are suitable for use on all cars EXCEPT true high performance race cars" - Rotary Aviation (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm)
Use: Most all street cars and stock rebuild applications Comes in both 2mm and 3mm
Feedback: It seems people were happier with the classic seals, they lasted 50-80 mostly without compression drop, common causes wee coolant leaks and oil leaks that forced the rebuild. Left chatter marks, not as bad the Super Seals, but never the less still there.
Conclusion: Used for the average rotary owner, street car minded. Still reported to leave chatter marks, but held detonation well.
PTS(Performance Tested Seals)- Sells the "Unbreakable" Apex seal
Information: "Performance Tested Seals (PTS) have developed a product especially for you that are guaranteed not to break in an engine, giving you an advantage over other racers.
•Seals do not wear the housings or rotors.
•Tested under race conditions, high boost and high RPM.
•Seals available for 2mm and 3mm for 12a, 13b and 20b rotary engines." - Performance Tested Seals (http://www.performancetestedseals.com/)
Use: For Race applications. but used in non race cars
Feedback: From the multitude of posts I have read it seems that the majority of people who used these seals were pleased. The seals will not damage the housings; they will bend, in some cases right out of the rotor, seemed more of a clearance issue, personally. These seals are rumored to "blow", left to cool then reused and worked like new. People have said that these are "Race only" seals because they work, but at the expense of the housings. It seems that people are split.
Conclusion: Not Ceramics but in my opinion from reading not has "hard" as the Super seals. Another seal for someone who is worried about detonation, and housing condition.
Atkins Rotary - "Atkins Rotary, where we not only love the rotary, we live it!For over 30 years, Atkins Rotary has been rebuilding Mazda rotary engines, working and designing parts for improved performance, durability and reliability."
Information:"We make many of our own parts including but not limited to: apex seals, thermal pellets, solid corner seals, high performance pulleys, intake manifolds, exhaust flanges and superchargers, all of which have been tried and tested by David Atkins and his professional championship winning racing career." Atkins Rotary (http://www.atkinsrotary.com/)
Use: Stock to high power rotary cars
Feedback: SPLIT by far. Probably the most tossed around names, Atkins seems to have problems with their rebuilt engines and seals."In addition to their failure to be good business people, I have heard of more instances of Atkins failures than any other brand."- jeff48. Others have said that their seals have survived horrible boost spikes and detonation and are still in use.
Conclusion: Seem to be more negative the positive, luck of the draw.
Racing Beat - Racing Beat is devoted to the research, development and manufacturing of Mazda and rotary engine performance products.
Information: "Racing Beat's 1986-92 Non-Turbo (2mm) Race Apex Seals are specifically designed to replace the stock cast iron seals in engines operating near, or above, 8,500 RPM" - Racing Beat (http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda2.htm)
Use: N/A ONLY. Must be used with the Racing beat springs and kept away from detonation.
Feedback: Works how it is designed to, as long as it is used how it is designed to.
Conclusion: Great if it is used as a N/A replacement and high RPMs.
NRS-Ceramic Apex Seals have been approved for the Formula Mazda Series and for good reason.When you want the best, you get Ceramic Seals.
Information: “They are kind to the hard chromed surface of the rotor housing and reduce friction as well. They virtually eliminate seal groove wear. They are several times stronger than any steel seal and handle detonation better. They weigh approx 5.5 grams each as compared to 14 grams for steel. That's almost a 2 ounce weight savings on two rotors!! Increased torque, increased reliability and just try to wear these out! Stronger than steel, lighter than steel, less abrasive than steel, less friction, negligible wear, reduced rotating mass, housing friendly and almost unbreakable” – NRS (http://www.nrsrotorsports.com/index.html)
Use: All Rotary applications,
Feedback: People seem to love these seals. The only two things bad about them are the price and that in large detonation they can break. They leave no marks on the housings are stronger than any other seals, I have yet to hear or read anything bad against them.
Conclusion: If some detonation may occur and price is no issue these are the seals for you.
I covered a few of the popular companies. Just to emphasize why I did this again, this to provide a side-by-side view for people looking to find THE BEST APEX SEAL FOR THEM AND THEIR APPLICATION. As most of us know it’s not so much the seal then the person not correctly matching the seal with their application.
Hope this helped and include anything I missed!
DISCLAIMER: None of the following information is original to me, I compiled the information from forums, including this one. This is to use for someone who wants to see a quick comparison for the popular companies side by side. I’m using general information and product information along with community feedback.
Rotary Aviation(RA): Makes kits used biased on engine types seal thickness and must have add-on’s to promote longevity.
Super Seals
Information:"RA Super Seals are made of the same base material as classic RA seals. They then go through an extra process to make the seals even more resistant to high heat conditions. This secondary treatment process gives them a distinctive black color." - Rotary Aviation (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm)
Use: High power, Large boosted applications comes in both 2mm and 3mm
Feedback: From many threads I have read it seems that 80% of people said, that the seals took detonation extremely well but left “chatter marks" and sever scaring to the housings, however; the life of the seals were short lived because of compression. A few threads reportedly had flat spring.
Conclusion: Good for large horse power where detonation will be a problem and would prove good to a drag car.
Classic Seals:
Information:"RA Classic Springs are suitable for use on all cars EXCEPT true high performance race cars" - Rotary Aviation (http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm)
Use: Most all street cars and stock rebuild applications Comes in both 2mm and 3mm
Feedback: It seems people were happier with the classic seals, they lasted 50-80 mostly without compression drop, common causes wee coolant leaks and oil leaks that forced the rebuild. Left chatter marks, not as bad the Super Seals, but never the less still there.
Conclusion: Used for the average rotary owner, street car minded. Still reported to leave chatter marks, but held detonation well.
PTS(Performance Tested Seals)- Sells the "Unbreakable" Apex seal
Information: "Performance Tested Seals (PTS) have developed a product especially for you that are guaranteed not to break in an engine, giving you an advantage over other racers.
•Seals do not wear the housings or rotors.
•Tested under race conditions, high boost and high RPM.
•Seals available for 2mm and 3mm for 12a, 13b and 20b rotary engines." - Performance Tested Seals (http://www.performancetestedseals.com/)
Use: For Race applications. but used in non race cars
Feedback: From the multitude of posts I have read it seems that the majority of people who used these seals were pleased. The seals will not damage the housings; they will bend, in some cases right out of the rotor, seemed more of a clearance issue, personally. These seals are rumored to "blow", left to cool then reused and worked like new. People have said that these are "Race only" seals because they work, but at the expense of the housings. It seems that people are split.
Conclusion: Not Ceramics but in my opinion from reading not has "hard" as the Super seals. Another seal for someone who is worried about detonation, and housing condition.
Atkins Rotary - "Atkins Rotary, where we not only love the rotary, we live it!For over 30 years, Atkins Rotary has been rebuilding Mazda rotary engines, working and designing parts for improved performance, durability and reliability."
Information:"We make many of our own parts including but not limited to: apex seals, thermal pellets, solid corner seals, high performance pulleys, intake manifolds, exhaust flanges and superchargers, all of which have been tried and tested by David Atkins and his professional championship winning racing career." Atkins Rotary (http://www.atkinsrotary.com/)
Use: Stock to high power rotary cars
Feedback: SPLIT by far. Probably the most tossed around names, Atkins seems to have problems with their rebuilt engines and seals."In addition to their failure to be good business people, I have heard of more instances of Atkins failures than any other brand."- jeff48. Others have said that their seals have survived horrible boost spikes and detonation and are still in use.
Conclusion: Seem to be more negative the positive, luck of the draw.
Racing Beat - Racing Beat is devoted to the research, development and manufacturing of Mazda and rotary engine performance products.
Information: "Racing Beat's 1986-92 Non-Turbo (2mm) Race Apex Seals are specifically designed to replace the stock cast iron seals in engines operating near, or above, 8,500 RPM" - Racing Beat (http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda2.htm)
Use: N/A ONLY. Must be used with the Racing beat springs and kept away from detonation.
Feedback: Works how it is designed to, as long as it is used how it is designed to.
Conclusion: Great if it is used as a N/A replacement and high RPMs.
NRS-Ceramic Apex Seals have been approved for the Formula Mazda Series and for good reason.When you want the best, you get Ceramic Seals.
Information: “They are kind to the hard chromed surface of the rotor housing and reduce friction as well. They virtually eliminate seal groove wear. They are several times stronger than any steel seal and handle detonation better. They weigh approx 5.5 grams each as compared to 14 grams for steel. That's almost a 2 ounce weight savings on two rotors!! Increased torque, increased reliability and just try to wear these out! Stronger than steel, lighter than steel, less abrasive than steel, less friction, negligible wear, reduced rotating mass, housing friendly and almost unbreakable” – NRS (http://www.nrsrotorsports.com/index.html)
Use: All Rotary applications,
Feedback: People seem to love these seals. The only two things bad about them are the price and that in large detonation they can break. They leave no marks on the housings are stronger than any other seals, I have yet to hear or read anything bad against them.
Conclusion: If some detonation may occur and price is no issue these are the seals for you.
I covered a few of the popular companies. Just to emphasize why I did this again, this to provide a side-by-side view for people looking to find THE BEST APEX SEAL FOR THEM AND THEIR APPLICATION. As most of us know it’s not so much the seal then the person not correctly matching the seal with their application.
Hope this helped and include anything I missed!
OEM seals are pefered by everyone. they can hold as much power you can toss at them, but any detonation will end in a cracked seal, fused to the rotor and/or pushed out of the rotor and can mark up the housings. My stock N/A had a dislogged apex seal and it took out a coolant passage.... I dont know how but it managed. I would feel better tuning a car with the stronger detonation proof apex seals then switching to the stock or a more milder apex seal just incase of boost spike or that unknown not tied down hose....
Goopy seems to have some seals that are working for them, and there are some other seals out there not on the list. I am seriously considering giving the Goopy seals a try in a back-up motor.
Thats the info I got, that they break in faster than any other seals and I think they are a bit like the PTS seals in that they are soft enough to not break, and supposedly if you overheat them and let them cool off they "straighten" back out. I have heard but not tested that they break in extremely fast, like let the motor idle for 20 minutes and away you go.
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That sounds like a good selling point, i just would like to make sure that they will last for my build. Im sure we will be hearing more from thoes seals. Dose anyone have them?
I'll give you my take on it, strictly speaking from my experience with Apex seals. 
I had a set of atkins seals...split 2 seals out of the rear housing @ 375RWHP, took out my secondary turbo (was still twin turbo'd at that point in time).
Now I'm single turbo running the RA 3mm Black super seals.
So far so good, and Dave @ KDR has said that no one has ever (reportedly) broken one of these seals. They have been warped, but never broken. I was strictly searching for a seal that wouldn't break, because I can't afford to replace my Garrett 500R if it gets taken out by an Apex seal. 
I had a set of atkins seals...split 2 seals out of the rear housing @ 375RWHP, took out my secondary turbo (was still twin turbo'd at that point in time).Now I'm single turbo running the RA 3mm Black super seals.
So far so good, and Dave @ KDR has said that no one has ever (reportedly) broken one of these seals. They have been warped, but never broken. I was strictly searching for a seal that wouldn't break, because I can't afford to replace my Garrett 500R if it gets taken out by an Apex seal.
I'll give you my take on it, strictly speaking from my experience with Apex seals. I had a set of atkins seals...split 2 seals out of the rear housing @ 375RWHP, took out my secondary turbo (was still twin turbo'd at that point in time).
Now I'm single turbo running the RA 3mm Black super seals. So far so good, and Dave @ KDR has said that no one has ever (reportedly) broken one of these seals. They have been warped, but never broken. I was strictly searching for a seal that wouldn't break, because I can't afford to replace my Garrett 500R if it gets taken out by an Apex seal.
I had a set of atkins seals...split 2 seals out of the rear housing @ 375RWHP, took out my secondary turbo (was still twin turbo'd at that point in time).Now I'm single turbo running the RA 3mm Black super seals.
So far so good, and Dave @ KDR has said that no one has ever (reportedly) broken one of these seals. They have been warped, but never broken. I was strictly searching for a seal that wouldn't break, because I can't afford to replace my Garrett 500R if it gets taken out by an Apex seal. 
As of right now, only 4k miles. We will see how they hold up in the long run! 
They have been through quite the amount of dyno pulls though...vacuum seems to be solid, and returns to normal after each run. Again, the true test will be time...
We will see how they hold up in the long run! They have been through quite the amount of dyno pulls though...vacuum seems to be solid, and returns to normal after each run.
Again, the true test will be time...
Originally Posted by djseven
Not to be the downer but they seem to start eating housings around 8-10k miles. Hopefully you will see different results, just make sure to premix plenty
Right now I run 6 oz of premix every tank, as recommended by Dave. 
Do you think that's sufficient? 
Hopefully they don't start eating away at my rotor housings...I bought those puppies BRAND NEW.
What causes them to wear so badly into the housings? Is it just a much stronger material/metal? What happens when they start wearing into your housings? I'm guessing your vacuum plummets. 
Everyone has an opinion of course and each seal type has people that love them and people that hate them. My personal opinion is that if you can't afford Ianetti ceramic seals that you should use stock Mazda 2 piece seals. There is too much inconsistency with the other brands for me to personally risk using them and any savings on the seals themselves is more than offset if you have to rebuild the engine later on. The NRS seals are the only ones that I don't know too much about but the reality is that they can be broken just like Ianetti ceramics can. For a street car I'm sticking with stock Mazda seals.
ALS seals are the only seals i would use in my motors.. i put them threw two weeks of beating/detionation at 14psi and they help up. that motor is still very strong with 16cfm on a cold start and 18cfm when warm.
another motor i used them in was tuned in rite from the build and thats also still going realy strong. both see alot of high rpm's 3 days a week and they hav been built over a year ago.. i can drive an hour away and let them twist and iv havent been let down yet..
another motor i used them in was tuned in rite from the build and thats also still going realy strong. both see alot of high rpm's 3 days a week and they hav been built over a year ago.. i can drive an hour away and let them twist and iv havent been let down yet..
