What Apex seal to use?
03-01-11, 11:14 PM
#76
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Als are a one piece seal like RA. Does anyone know if they allow blow by like RA seals do? I hear 2 piece is better sealing and compression because they expand better than a one piece. So far i havent heard anything bad about ALS. When they blow which all seals seam to do they save the rest of the engine and turbo.
03-01-11, 11:26 PM
#77
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^^Who told you ALS and RA are one piece? Funny, the engines I've clearanced and built with both always took two piece seals 
User 'ceramic seals', didn't I perma-ban you recently for being a complete horse's *** in other threads? It's a shame you're not smart enough to cover up your obvious 'tells' when you post..... not the best poker player are ya mate
?
User 'ceramic seals', didn't I perma-ban you recently for being a complete horse's *** in other threads? It's a shame you're not smart enough to cover up your obvious 'tells' when you post..... not the best poker player are ya mate
?
Last edited by GoodfellaFD3S; 03-01-11 at 11:57 PM.
03-01-11, 11:38 PM
#78
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^^Who told you ALS and RA are one piece? Funny, the engines I've clearanced and built with both always took two piece seals
ceramic seals, didn't I perma-ban you recently for being a complete horse's *** in other threads? It's a shame you're not smart enough to cover up your obvious 'tells' when you post..... not the best poker player are ya mate?
ceramic seals, didn't I perma-ban you recently for being a complete horse's *** in other threads? It's a shame you're not smart enough to cover up your obvious 'tells' when you post..... not the best poker player are ya mate
?Last edited by Linguo415; 03-01-11 at 11:42 PM.
03-01-11, 11:51 PM
#79
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I don't need to go look at pretty pictures on a website. I have a shop, and professionally build high-hp engines for customers.
ALS and RA 2mm seals come in two piece varieties. They don't 'blow' when they fail--they bend.
If you have nothing to contribute to the thread but 'what you hear' and misinformation, maybe you should sit back and learn from those that have something of value to say.
Last edited by GoodfellaFD3S; 03-01-11 at 11:54 PM.
03-02-11, 12:01 AM
#80
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^ Hey man. Youre the one talking crap. I guess the pic on the site is not a good one. It is a 2piece youre right. Thanks for making me feel bad though. guess thats part of your profession.
03-02-11, 06:23 AM
#81
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I use RXParts apex seals. Ive used the NRS junk. I've used almost every seal there is. I agree it all comes down to tuning, BUT there are other factors that can happen which is why I won't ever put ceramics in my engines. IE..a fuel pump goes up and fuel pressure goes down, your motor lets go. Fuel filter gets clogged, wastegate line comes off and your boost goes crazy. Anything can happen even if you have a perfect tune and when it does your ceramic apex seal will and does destroy everything. None of the fast rotary drag cars use ceramics. They use the same seal I use.
03-02-11, 09:17 AM
#82
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I'm very sorry if I hurt your feelings, my original profession was as an Officer in the US Army Field Artillery..... I can be a little rough around the edges
Last edited by GoodfellaFD3S; 03-02-11 at 12:34 PM.
03-02-11, 01:55 PM
#84
on a totally unrelated note, i hope ceramic seals regroups, gets another alias and comes back, if for nothing more than sheer entertainment value. perhaps as he gets more cagy, his grammar and spelling may get better as he tries to camouflage and make it work. in the end, we get a laugh, and he learns - win, win.
03-02-11, 06:02 PM
#86
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Do you feel there's a big difference between the ALS and the RXparts seals, or are they made somewhat similarly? They seem to have the same benefits...
03-02-11, 06:35 PM
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The fastest 13B record holder as of right now uses the rxparts seals. I was obviously exagerating by saying ALL of them, but very very few use anything but steel seals for the very simple reason, when they go, they destroy everything. Now for a N/A rotary, sure anything will last in that.
03-02-11, 08:24 PM
#88
I use RXParts apex seals. Ive used the NRS junk. I've used almost every seal there is. I agree it all comes down to tuning, BUT there are other factors that can happen which is why I won't ever put ceramics in my engines. IE..a fuel pump goes up and fuel pressure goes down, your motor lets go. Fuel filter gets clogged, wastegate line comes off and your boost goes crazy. Anything can happen even if you have a perfect tune and when it does your ceramic apex seal will and does destroy everything. None of the fast rotary drag cars use ceramics. They use the same seal I use.
Now I wouldn't call the NRS seals junk. But I do think ceramics are application limited. Because of this damage, I wouldn't run them on a boosted rotary for the reasons you brought up. A perfect tune can't counter all those potential other problems that can and will surface later on. I think they are ideal for NA applications and wish Mazda would start using them. Ceramics don't hardly wear on the housings so getting 200k + out of them is really nice for the rotarys failing image. I would love to see how long a ceramic na rotary would last before it lost compression.
03-02-11, 09:05 PM
#89
One thing very important to note on ceramic seals- You should/must use them with brand new rotor housings. Ceramic apex seals will virtually never wear at all. So if the housing is used and has any minor flaws or grooves, this will reduce compression almost permanently.
Personally I only recommend ceramic for n/a engines going over 8500 rpm. They WILL break with detonation on a turbo car, and turn to powder destroying many parts with it.
Stock seals are great for lower boost street applications. But can be a liability to a tuner shop, as once the car leaves you have no idea how its going to be treated. A blown engine always seems to be blamed on the tuner/builder regardless. Sad but true. So most shops will install aftermarket seals that cant break to inflate a "good builder" status. Everything tuned right, built right, and maintained the seals are awesome. We have several cars running 400+ rwhp for over 4 years no issues.
For high boost/ high power applications I love the Goopy seals and ALS seals.
I will say that we have used 3mm atkins seals at over 500-600rwhp in customer cars, and our personal cars. They go to many track events for the past 3 years with no issues. But they were built well by us, and tuned well by us.
Aviation seals wear out housings! This is a very well known fact! I never recommend them, but as others have stated they ARE cheap and ARE insanely strong. Great for a throw together cheap drag engine. Nothing more.
Personally I only recommend ceramic for n/a engines going over 8500 rpm. They WILL break with detonation on a turbo car, and turn to powder destroying many parts with it.
Stock seals are great for lower boost street applications. But can be a liability to a tuner shop, as once the car leaves you have no idea how its going to be treated. A blown engine always seems to be blamed on the tuner/builder regardless. Sad but true. So most shops will install aftermarket seals that cant break to inflate a "good builder" status. Everything tuned right, built right, and maintained the seals are awesome. We have several cars running 400+ rwhp for over 4 years no issues.
For high boost/ high power applications I love the Goopy seals and ALS seals.
I will say that we have used 3mm atkins seals at over 500-600rwhp in customer cars, and our personal cars. They go to many track events for the past 3 years with no issues. But they were built well by us, and tuned well by us.
Aviation seals wear out housings! This is a very well known fact! I never recommend them, but as others have stated they ARE cheap and ARE insanely strong. Great for a throw together cheap drag engine. Nothing more.
03-02-11, 10:46 PM
#90
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+1 on the Atkins seals. I actually made 780rwhp on them 3 yrs ago and the engine lasted as long as any of the ceramic sealed engines but when it does finally let go, you won't have a disaster on your hands.
03-02-11, 11:48 PM
#91
Well I have 45k on my S5 rebuild I did back in 05 that has these seals. The housings already had grove marks from previously blowing the engine. I was still able to re-use the housings. I'm gonna pull apart that engine in the summer. I took before pics when I built it. Will be very interesting to see how the housings look now.
03-03-11, 07:38 AM
#93
Well I have 45k on my S5 rebuild I did back in 05 that has these seals. The housings already had grove marks from previously blowing the engine. I was still able to re-use the housings. I'm gonna pull apart that engine in the summer. I took before pics when I built it. Will be very interesting to see how the housings look now.
03-03-11, 10:03 AM
#95
So RA seals are still a no-no on good rotor housings? it's als or goopy(?wtf?) now?
i though the RA chatter mark bullshit had been cleared up?
What about tuning an engine on RA seals an putting less then 2k miles on them, then swapping back to stockers after you get a good solid detenation free tune? i Love my 3 pc stockers, but damn i hate the damage. (nvm that would be ALOt of pointless labor, sounds like it's gonna be ALS this time.
i though the RA chatter mark bullshit had been cleared up?
What about tuning an engine on RA seals an putting less then 2k miles on them, then swapping back to stockers after you get a good solid detenation free tune? i Love my 3 pc stockers, but damn i hate the damage. (nvm that would be ALOt of pointless labor, sounds like it's gonna be ALS this time.
03-03-11, 10:11 AM
#96
Personally I think I have built 2-3 engines with them and never heard back from the customer.
I still think the RA Super Seal is a good seal if you drive the car 3-5k miles per year and intend to beat the living **** out of the car every time you drive it. Not what I would choose personally but they definitely arent trash, you just have to be realistic what to expect from them.
I run the ALS seals in every engine I build now unless the customer specifies otherwise. Doesnt matter if the customer is shooting for 500+rwhp or a bone stock restoration it gets ALS.
I still think the RA Super Seal is a good seal if you drive the car 3-5k miles per year and intend to beat the living **** out of the car every time you drive it. Not what I would choose personally but they definitely arent trash, you just have to be realistic what to expect from them.
I run the ALS seals in every engine I build now unless the customer specifies otherwise. Doesnt matter if the customer is shooting for 500+rwhp or a bone stock restoration it gets ALS.
03-03-11, 10:43 AM
#97
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So RA seals are still a no-no on good rotor housings? it's als or goopy(?wtf?) now?
i though the RA chatter mark bullshit had been cleared up?
What about tuning an engine on RA seals an putting less then 2k miles on them, then swapping back to stockers after you get a good solid detenation free tune? i Love my 3 pc stockers, but damn i hate the damage. (nvm that would be ALOt of pointless labor, sounds like it's gonna be ALS this time.
i though the RA chatter mark bullshit had been cleared up?
What about tuning an engine on RA seals an putting less then 2k miles on them, then swapping back to stockers after you get a good solid detenation free tune? i Love my 3 pc stockers, but damn i hate the damage. (nvm that would be ALOt of pointless labor, sounds like it's gonna be ALS this time.
You guys have to understand if there's no real track record for an apex seal you're taking a gamble. Mazda OEM have been used for decades, in thousands and thousands of cars. They work, just don't detonate
At IRP we use oem stock 2 piece 2mm seals in all sub ~350 rwhp builds. We also have built a few engines with NRS ceramic. (When i say a few I mean around half a dozen).
For the typical 400-500 rwhp single turbo build, we've been using the RA 2mm Super/Black seals with good success. Premix (along w/an OMP) is a must.
We have a car at the shop now with a low-mileage build and RA 3mm seals that fires up very strongly, pulls good vacuum and sounds like a strong motor. We almost always use 2mm seals, but for this customer he needs all the help he can get
03-03-11, 11:46 AM
#98
Personally I think I have built 2-3 engines with them and never heard back from the customer.
I still think the RA Super Seal is a good seal if you drive the car 3-5k miles per year and intend to beat the living **** out of the car every time you drive it. Not what I would choose personally but they definitely arent trash, you just have to be realistic what to expect from them.
I run the ALS seals in every engine I build now unless the customer specifies otherwise. Doesnt matter if the customer is shooting for 500+rwhp or a bone stock restoration it gets ALS.
I still think the RA Super Seal is a good seal if you drive the car 3-5k miles per year and intend to beat the living **** out of the car every time you drive it. Not what I would choose personally but they definitely arent trash, you just have to be realistic what to expect from them.
I run the ALS seals in every engine I build now unless the customer specifies otherwise. Doesnt matter if the customer is shooting for 500+rwhp or a bone stock restoration it gets ALS.
03-03-11, 10:41 PM
#100
Are they the Super Seals or their Classics? The most mileage I have seen on the 2mm Super Seals is around 20k, and the engine was making low 80s on compression and both the housings were scrap metal when I disassembled the engine. The housings were new when the engine was built. If you are running the super seals you must pre-mix like crazy.
I'm running the classics. OMP doesn't work so it's been premix the whole time .5 oz per gallon. Well actually I got lazy. There's probably about 2k on it when I didn't premix. The engine fires up every time and I'm running used old fouled out Rx8 leading plugs. LOL! I will say this, I DONT drive the **** out of it. That's really probalby why it's done so well.