Any Drifters Out There?
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 67
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From: N Atlanta
And just to make a point (I know I'll get burned for this but...):
I don't like drag racing. I don't get it. It seems that tho there is some talent involved the bottom line is whoever has the most money to spend will win the race.
Having said that, I don't feel the need to call people who do like drag racing stupid or just trend-chasers. There are people out there who only go to drag races because they think its cool but I don't believe they are the majority by any means and have no desire to call those who are out.
Bottom line: Back the hell off and get a life.
I don't like drag racing. I don't get it. It seems that tho there is some talent involved the bottom line is whoever has the most money to spend will win the race.
Having said that, I don't feel the need to call people who do like drag racing stupid or just trend-chasers. There are people out there who only go to drag races because they think its cool but I don't believe they are the majority by any means and have no desire to call those who are out.
Bottom line: Back the hell off and get a life.
redifining** "smoked"
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: portland
oh yeah... another drift physics lesson on kinetic enery/ friction:
kinetic energy (or the velocity of your car on the track ) = 1/2 mv^2 where m= mass and v= speed
speed in a car is achieved through burning fuel and harnessing it's potential to propell you forward, obviously. The energy of the fuel becomes kinetic energy in your moving car with speed. Decrease your speed ( by braking or 'GRIPPING' with static friction) and your losing kinetic energy two-fold, energy that your engine will have to replace by down shifting and re-accelerating on the exit. By *sliding through the apex you'll be coming out of the turn having loss less energy (using your brake pads) and rpm will have been at redline as your tires left their calling card.
*kinetic friction < static friction*
So... braking with static friction in the pads and rotors through the turn usess more energy (and rpm) than the kinetic (or *sliding friction) that is utilized in a controlled oversteer.
Go ahead and Flame On! I love to see these thirty-somethings get all bent outta shape over the "drift-tards" not knowing wtf they're talking about.
kinetic energy (or the velocity of your car on the track ) = 1/2 mv^2 where m= mass and v= speed
speed in a car is achieved through burning fuel and harnessing it's potential to propell you forward, obviously. The energy of the fuel becomes kinetic energy in your moving car with speed. Decrease your speed ( by braking or 'GRIPPING' with static friction) and your losing kinetic energy two-fold, energy that your engine will have to replace by down shifting and re-accelerating on the exit. By *sliding through the apex you'll be coming out of the turn having loss less energy (using your brake pads) and rpm will have been at redline as your tires left their calling card.
*kinetic friction < static friction*
So... braking with static friction in the pads and rotors through the turn usess more energy (and rpm) than the kinetic (or *sliding friction) that is utilized in a controlled oversteer.
Go ahead and Flame On! I love to see these thirty-somethings get all bent outta shape over the "drift-tards" not knowing wtf they're talking about.
I drift so it's not like I'm trying to take anyones side or anything, and I dont know much about physics.
But there may be some truth to what you are saying, but then again there is a certain point where the energy used to move the vehicle over comes the amount of traction available from the tires. At that point there is no advantage over "gripping" since the tires are being overcome by the energy. Any traction used to accelerate cannot be used to corner and vice versa. While drifting the wheels are moving faster than the tires can adhere to the ground.........
I dont know... maybe if you could explain it in lamens terms where everyone can understand it. I have never to this day seen anyone drifting overtake someone who is driving conventionally, especially drifting like you see in option videos, or D1, or FD. It just doesnt make any sense.
But there may be some truth to what you are saying, but then again there is a certain point where the energy used to move the vehicle over comes the amount of traction available from the tires. At that point there is no advantage over "gripping" since the tires are being overcome by the energy. Any traction used to accelerate cannot be used to corner and vice versa. While drifting the wheels are moving faster than the tires can adhere to the ground.........
I dont know... maybe if you could explain it in lamens terms where everyone can understand it. I have never to this day seen anyone drifting overtake someone who is driving conventionally, especially drifting like you see in option videos, or D1, or FD. It just doesnt make any sense.
oh yeah... another drift physics lesson on kinetic enery/ friction:
kinetic energy (or the velocity of your car on the track ) = 1/2 mv^2 where m= mass and v= speed
speed in a car is achieved through burning fuel and harnessing it's potential to propell you forward, obviously. The energy of the fuel becomes kinetic energy in your moving car with speed. Decrease your speed ( by braking or 'GRIPPING' with static friction) and your losing kinetic energy two-fold, energy that your engine will have to replace by down shifting and re-accelerating on the exit. By *sliding through the apex you'll be coming out of the turn having loss less energy (using your brake pads) and rpm will have been at redline as your tires left their calling card.
*kinetic friction < static friction*
So... braking with static friction in the pads and rotors through the turn usess more energy (and rpm) than the kinetic (or *sliding friction) that is utilized in a controlled oversteer.
Go ahead and Flame On! I love to see these thirty-somethings get all bent outta shape over the "drift-tards" not knowing wtf they're talking about.
kinetic energy (or the velocity of your car on the track ) = 1/2 mv^2 where m= mass and v= speed
speed in a car is achieved through burning fuel and harnessing it's potential to propell you forward, obviously. The energy of the fuel becomes kinetic energy in your moving car with speed. Decrease your speed ( by braking or 'GRIPPING' with static friction) and your losing kinetic energy two-fold, energy that your engine will have to replace by down shifting and re-accelerating on the exit. By *sliding through the apex you'll be coming out of the turn having loss less energy (using your brake pads) and rpm will have been at redline as your tires left their calling card.
*kinetic friction < static friction*
So... braking with static friction in the pads and rotors through the turn usess more energy (and rpm) than the kinetic (or *sliding friction) that is utilized in a controlled oversteer.
Go ahead and Flame On! I love to see these thirty-somethings get all bent outta shape over the "drift-tards" not knowing wtf they're talking about.
haha that pretty much somes it up. game over. drifterz win.
....No, not really.
What I get from what he said is that because you can sustain a higher rpm through drifting and meeting less resistance through the road to the tires you will have a higher exit speed..........................
or something like that.
Which doesnt make much sense since while drifting energy is also being wasted to exceed the adherance of tires to the ground instead of propelling the car forward or sustain adherance while cornering. Of course you will be at a higher rpm but upon exit you will have to get traction back at some point which usually mean less throttle which means your rpm will fall lower than it would have been if you would have took the proper entry.
From what I get from what you said is that through drifting you will have a higher entry speed and exit speed. I find that horribly incorrect. It is obvious that you will have a higher entry speed when a later braking point is used (late braking..... it's a technique as well as late apex) but that normally means you will have a slower exit speed which is the fall back to late braking. But with drifting not only will you have a slower exit speed but you will also have to regain traction which will ultimately make you slower.
What you are saying is like saying someone doing a burnout in a straight line would be faster than just driving normally because their rpm's will be higher........ and thats just retarded.
Again I'm not a flamer. I'm just saying it doesnt make any sense no matter what you do.
What I get from what he said is that because you can sustain a higher rpm through drifting and meeting less resistance through the road to the tires you will have a higher exit speed..........................
or something like that.
Which doesnt make much sense since while drifting energy is also being wasted to exceed the adherance of tires to the ground instead of propelling the car forward or sustain adherance while cornering. Of course you will be at a higher rpm but upon exit you will have to get traction back at some point which usually mean less throttle which means your rpm will fall lower than it would have been if you would have took the proper entry.
From what I get from what you said is that through drifting you will have a higher entry speed and exit speed. I find that horribly incorrect. It is obvious that you will have a higher entry speed when a later braking point is used (late braking..... it's a technique as well as late apex) but that normally means you will have a slower exit speed which is the fall back to late braking. But with drifting not only will you have a slower exit speed but you will also have to regain traction which will ultimately make you slower.
What you are saying is like saying someone doing a burnout in a straight line would be faster than just driving normally because their rpm's will be higher........ and thats just retarded.
Again I'm not a flamer. I'm just saying it doesnt make any sense no matter what you do.
....No, not really.
What you are saying is like saying someone doing a burnout in a straight line would be faster than just driving normally because their rpm's will be higher........ and thats just retarded.
Again I'm not a flamer. I'm just saying it doesnt make any sense no matter what you do.
What you are saying is like saying someone doing a burnout in a straight line would be faster than just driving normally because their rpm's will be higher........ and thats just retarded.
Again I'm not a flamer. I'm just saying it doesnt make any sense no matter what you do.
wow...
ok ..first of, that was probably the worst analogy i have ever heard.(not trying to bash anyone it just has no relevance) secondly drifting plain and simple, is Exceeding your tires' limits of adhesion, exhibiting a lateral slip, resulting in an oversteered condition. thus resulting in keeping momentum around a corner. Keeping momentum around a corner= a faster time, process used to shave time in a race=a racing technique.
Drift Enthusiasts
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
From: Tyler, Tx
Wow, seems like I might not fit in with alot of you after seeing a few post on this thread. lmao
I am in love with drifting, have been doing it for almost 4 years now and I cant get enough of it.
I am in love with drifting, have been doing it for almost 4 years now and I cant get enough of it.
wow... ok ..first of, that was probably the worst analogy i have ever heard.(not trying to bash anyone it just has no relevance) secondly drifting plain and simple, is Exceeding your tires' limits of adhesion, exhibiting a lateral slip, resulting in an oversteered condition. thus resulting in keeping momentum around a corner. Keeping momentum around a corner= a faster time, process used to shave time in a race=a racing technique.Static friction > kinetic friction as established earlier in this thread.
Tire grip is used for three things, braking, cornerning and accelerating. (The four directions). Tire grip is directly determined from tire friction.
From that you can deduce that tire grip from static friction > tire grip from kinetic friction.
When you exceed the grip of kinetic friction, your car doesn't turn any harder. It just maintained the speed that it entered. You don't gain any benefits from "exceeding" friction.
FRICTION IS GOOD FOR MAINTAINING A FASTER SPEED AROUND A CORNER!!! Without friction, the tires can't do their job.
Now, that's all well and good, but because tire grip from static friction > tire grip from kinetic friction, as established above, a car gripping around the corner can maintain similar speed from entry to apex, and accelerate from apex to exit, whereas a car drifting around a corner can only maintain a single speed.
But, the car that's drifting enters a corner faster you say?
That's true, except for one thing, countersteer scrubs off speed. The more you countersteer, the more speed is being bled off through the corner. So, you're not actually maintaining speed, you're actually slightly losing speed from entry to exit.
But there is a silver lining in all this gray. There is one type of drifting that's definitively faster than gripping or drifitng as you see it today. It is know by many names, the ideal drift, the zero-countersteer drift, mild oversteer, whatever you want to call it. With no countersteer, you scrub off no speed. Also, with a small slip angle and a bit of throttle control and weight shifting, you can accelerate at the same point as the grip line. You end up beating them to the apex, and accelerating at the same rate out of the corner.
Here's the reason why I don't associate this technique with drifting as we all know it: It's near impossible to pull off. I haven't seen anyone do it yet. EVER. So please don't confuse what you guys do as drifting as a race technique.
You should enjoy drifting for what it is: A fun, showy event that lets you waste tires, blow off some steam, get some ooh's and aah's from the crowd and hopefully avoid walls in the process. No more, no less. But don't confuse it or any of the techniques learned from it as applicable to the racetrack.
Let's put it this way. If we were racing, and you attempted a pass after you outbraked me into a corner with drifting, as we get into the corner, you would have a bit of a lead. But the combination of you bleeding off speed through the turn and me accelerating through it and one of two things would happen. I'd either change my line for a tighter exit, but still be able to accelerate out of the corner earliier than you, setting you up for the corner to take my place back, OR be forced to punt you off the track because you slowed down too much mid-corner.
I did say though, that grip is due to tires, right? Well, what do you think would happen if manufacturers came out with a tire that have much better lattidunal grip than longitudnal grip? Well, circa 1980's-1990's, tires in Japan had a habit of exhibiting lots of slip angle. So, pro racers would take advantage of that and induce oversteer in corners. THAT's where the mountain racers learned it from. But, and there's always a but, it worked backed then, but it doesn't work now.
WHY? you ask?
Because tires have gotten stickier, manufacturers have learned of the greater importance of longitudnal grip than lattidunal grip on modern racetracks. You want to be able accelerate out of a corner as early as possible rather than maintaining the highest speed around a corner. Exit speed, not entrance speed, is king.
Drifting might have worked in the past, but it's a dead art on the racetrack. Ask any racer is he's ever seen a drifter who's faster than everyone else drifting on a racetrack.
Roen pretty much said what I was trying to say.
I'm all for many kinds of motorsport, especially drifting and road racing, but I would never attempt to drift in order to gain any advantage while road racing. If I have to do that then there is something else I need to work on so I wont have to drift in the future.
I'm all for many kinds of motorsport, especially drifting and road racing, but I would never attempt to drift in order to gain any advantage while road racing. If I have to do that then there is something else I need to work on so I wont have to drift in the future.
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 67
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From: N Atlanta
Its kinda funny, I thought this thread was called "Any drifters out there?" Not "Drifting. What's up with that?" or "Let's all talk about how somebody's opinion is wrong if I don't agree with it."
I'm about tired of hearing the people who post on this thread about their opinions. I subscribed to it to see who the drifters were.
How about we do this: If you aren't a drifter or interested in it, DON'T COMMENT!
I'm about tired of hearing the people who post on this thread about their opinions. I subscribed to it to see who the drifters were.
How about we do this: If you aren't a drifter or interested in it, DON'T COMMENT!
I am! (check one or two pages back)
But I think that if you come on and say "Oh I'm a "drifter" you should post pics of events you have driven in or your car and a spec sheet. I mean come on, anyone can say they drift, but it doesnt mean they have experience. For all we know they can just be posers who watched Initial D or the Fast and The Furious or a few option videos and think they are super mad tyte jdm drifterrrrrzzzzz.
If you dont drift then dont say you drift, and if all you have done are a few dougnuts on the street and have never even been to an event than dont talk about how your setup is the best or how you "own mad fools on the street". In reality you probably suck. I suck I'll admit, but I go to events and get an entires day worth of seat time, which is much more beneficial than street drifting with spectators where you could get caught and not have a car anymore (happens all the time..... happened to a friend). If you do it keep it on the hush hush so you dont mess it up for others.
But I think that if you come on and say "Oh I'm a "drifter" you should post pics of events you have driven in or your car and a spec sheet. I mean come on, anyone can say they drift, but it doesnt mean they have experience. For all we know they can just be posers who watched Initial D or the Fast and The Furious or a few option videos and think they are super mad tyte jdm drifterrrrrzzzzz.
If you dont drift then dont say you drift, and if all you have done are a few dougnuts on the street and have never even been to an event than dont talk about how your setup is the best or how you "own mad fools on the street". In reality you probably suck. I suck I'll admit, but I go to events and get an entires day worth of seat time, which is much more beneficial than street drifting with spectators where you could get caught and not have a car anymore (happens all the time..... happened to a friend). If you do it keep it on the hush hush so you dont mess it up for others.
afro88: I wasn't talking to anyone particular. Just addressing the thread readers in general.
And anyone who isn't just on the bandwagon, who has done research and been into drifting for a while would know that drifting isn't a "new thing" at all. Its been around in Japan since the late 1960's and has a very interesting history.
I became interested in drifting far before Initial D or Tokyo Drift were out and the first time I saw a video of it, I stared at it with my jaw dropped for an hour and haven't looked back since.
And anyone who isn't just on the bandwagon, who has done research and been into drifting for a while would know that drifting isn't a "new thing" at all. Its been around in Japan since the late 1960's and has a very interesting history.
I became interested in drifting far before Initial D or Tokyo Drift were out and the first time I saw a video of it, I stared at it with my jaw dropped for an hour and haven't looked back since.
+1^ same with me
A car's speed around a corner is limited by the friction of the tires pure and simple.
Static friction > kinetic friction as established earlier in this thread.
Tire grip is used for three things, braking, cornerning and accelerating. (The four directions). Tire grip is directly determined from tire friction.
From that you can deduce that tire grip from static friction > tire grip from kinetic friction.
When you exceed the grip of kinetic friction, your car doesn't turn any harder. It just maintained the speed that it entered. You don't gain any benefits from "exceeding" friction.
FRICTION IS GOOD FOR MAINTAINING A FASTER SPEED AROUND A CORNER!!! Without friction, the tires can't do their job.
Now, that's all well and good, but because tire grip from static friction > tire grip from kinetic friction, as established above, a car gripping around the corner can maintain similar speed from entry to apex, and accelerate from apex to exit, whereas a car drifting around a corner can only maintain a single speed.
But, the car that's drifting enters a corner faster you say?
That's true, except for one thing, countersteer scrubs off speed. The more you countersteer, the more speed is being bled off through the corner. So, you're not actually maintaining speed, you're actually slightly losing speed from entry to exit.
But there is a silver lining in all this gray. There is one type of drifting that's definitively faster than gripping or drifitng as you see it today. It is know by many names, the ideal drift, the zero-countersteer drift, mild oversteer, whatever you want to call it. With no countersteer, you scrub off no speed. Also, with a small slip angle and a bit of throttle control and weight shifting, you can accelerate at the same point as the grip line. You end up beating them to the apex, and accelerating at the same rate out of the corner.
Here's the reason why I don't associate this technique with drifting as we all know it: It's near impossible to pull off. I haven't seen anyone do it yet. EVER. So please don't confuse what you guys do as drifting as a race technique.
You should enjoy drifting for what it is: A fun, showy event that lets you waste tires, blow off some steam, get some ooh's and aah's from the crowd and hopefully avoid walls in the process. No more, no less. But don't confuse it or any of the techniques learned from it as applicable to the racetrack.
Let's put it this way. If we were racing, and you attempted a pass after you outbraked me into a corner with drifting, as we get into the corner, you would have a bit of a lead. But the combination of you bleeding off speed through the turn and me accelerating through it and one of two things would happen. I'd either change my line for a tighter exit, but still be able to accelerate out of the corner earliier than you, setting you up for the corner to take my place back, OR be forced to punt you off the track because you slowed down too much mid-corner.
I did say though, that grip is due to tires, right? Well, what do you think would happen if manufacturers came out with a tire that have much better lattidunal grip than longitudnal grip? Well, circa 1980's-1990's, tires in Japan had a habit of exhibiting lots of slip angle. So, pro racers would take advantage of that and induce oversteer in corners. THAT's where the mountain racers learned it from. But, and there's always a but, it worked backed then, but it doesn't work now.
WHY? you ask?
Because tires have gotten stickier, manufacturers have learned of the greater importance of longitudnal grip than lattidunal grip on modern racetracks. You want to be able accelerate out of a corner as early as possible rather than maintaining the highest speed around a corner. Exit speed, not entrance speed, is king.
Drifting might have worked in the past, but it's a dead art on the racetrack. Ask any racer is he's ever seen a drifter who's faster than everyone else drifting on a racetrack.
Static friction > kinetic friction as established earlier in this thread.
Tire grip is used for three things, braking, cornerning and accelerating. (The four directions). Tire grip is directly determined from tire friction.
From that you can deduce that tire grip from static friction > tire grip from kinetic friction.
When you exceed the grip of kinetic friction, your car doesn't turn any harder. It just maintained the speed that it entered. You don't gain any benefits from "exceeding" friction.
FRICTION IS GOOD FOR MAINTAINING A FASTER SPEED AROUND A CORNER!!! Without friction, the tires can't do their job.
Now, that's all well and good, but because tire grip from static friction > tire grip from kinetic friction, as established above, a car gripping around the corner can maintain similar speed from entry to apex, and accelerate from apex to exit, whereas a car drifting around a corner can only maintain a single speed.
But, the car that's drifting enters a corner faster you say?
That's true, except for one thing, countersteer scrubs off speed. The more you countersteer, the more speed is being bled off through the corner. So, you're not actually maintaining speed, you're actually slightly losing speed from entry to exit.
But there is a silver lining in all this gray. There is one type of drifting that's definitively faster than gripping or drifitng as you see it today. It is know by many names, the ideal drift, the zero-countersteer drift, mild oversteer, whatever you want to call it. With no countersteer, you scrub off no speed. Also, with a small slip angle and a bit of throttle control and weight shifting, you can accelerate at the same point as the grip line. You end up beating them to the apex, and accelerating at the same rate out of the corner.
Here's the reason why I don't associate this technique with drifting as we all know it: It's near impossible to pull off. I haven't seen anyone do it yet. EVER. So please don't confuse what you guys do as drifting as a race technique.
You should enjoy drifting for what it is: A fun, showy event that lets you waste tires, blow off some steam, get some ooh's and aah's from the crowd and hopefully avoid walls in the process. No more, no less. But don't confuse it or any of the techniques learned from it as applicable to the racetrack.
Let's put it this way. If we were racing, and you attempted a pass after you outbraked me into a corner with drifting, as we get into the corner, you would have a bit of a lead. But the combination of you bleeding off speed through the turn and me accelerating through it and one of two things would happen. I'd either change my line for a tighter exit, but still be able to accelerate out of the corner earliier than you, setting you up for the corner to take my place back, OR be forced to punt you off the track because you slowed down too much mid-corner.
I did say though, that grip is due to tires, right? Well, what do you think would happen if manufacturers came out with a tire that have much better lattidunal grip than longitudnal grip? Well, circa 1980's-1990's, tires in Japan had a habit of exhibiting lots of slip angle. So, pro racers would take advantage of that and induce oversteer in corners. THAT's where the mountain racers learned it from. But, and there's always a but, it worked backed then, but it doesn't work now.
WHY? you ask?
Because tires have gotten stickier, manufacturers have learned of the greater importance of longitudnal grip than lattidunal grip on modern racetracks. You want to be able accelerate out of a corner as early as possible rather than maintaining the highest speed around a corner. Exit speed, not entrance speed, is king.
Drifting might have worked in the past, but it's a dead art on the racetrack. Ask any racer is he's ever seen a drifter who's faster than everyone else drifting on a racetrack.
Full Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: N Atlanta
But I think that if you come on and say "Oh I'm a "drifter" you should post pics of events you have driven in or your car and a spec sheet. I mean come on, anyone can say they drift, but it doesnt mean they have experience. For all we know they can just be posers who watched Initial D or the Fast and The Furious or a few option videos and think they are super mad tyte jdm drifterrrrrzzzzz.
If you dont drift then dont say you drift, and if all you have done are a few dougnuts on the street and have never even been to an event than dont talk about how your setup is the best or how you "own mad fools on the street". In reality you probably suck. I suck I'll admit, but I go to events and get an entires day worth of seat time, which is much more beneficial than street drifting with spectators where you could get caught and not have a car anymore (happens all the time..... happened to a friend). If you do it keep it on the hush hush so you dont mess it up for others.
As I said, its really very easy: Don't drift? Don't comment.
The people who started this thread don't care if you like what they are doing with their car. If you are so upset that someone is drifting in an rx7 then here is what you can do. Find them, offer an ungodly inflated amount of money for their car, buy it and then do with it what you will. But until you can do this SHUT UP!
redifining** "smoked"
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: portland
Let's just get one thing firmly established... if your not a professional driver, don't act like you could smoke any drifter a-z. So all the macho road racers or draggerz that think their the **** please visit the link to realitycheck.com. Also, the dispute over whether drifting offers an advantage on the track may never be settled, any driver- let alone drifter- loves to be the fastest, but if we can leave you three lengths behind and look good doing it- well, that's a victory in itself.
Sweet! An honest mod. Why? Because you speak your mind and dont play nice with someone just because you are a mod.
Two of the exact same cars with exactly the same setups and exactly the same slicks but one driver "gripped" and one "drifted". There would be no competition. Grip would win every time. (seeing as if the conditions were the same for each driver i.e. no mistakes). But realistically I dont see anyone drifting with competition slicks and actually being able to hold it the entire time unless they were like 205's and the car had like 400ft/lb of torque to the wheels.
Tell you what skihirevz9000 you go to a road course near you. Enter into an open track day and drift your car around every turn the entire day and try to keep count of how many cars pass you. If you can even keep count lmk and I will never say anything ever again. Of course you will need in car vid and your lap times as well but I think it would be a fair bet.
No one is saying they are pro or the greatest, it's just that there is truth and reality. 99.9999999%(guesstimated of course) of people who competitively drive are not going to win any race with a 20 car field while drifting. Of course a 600hp unrestricted (besides safety issues) drift car is going to beat a 230hp restricted road race car it has almost 3x's the power. And even then realistcally the average driver isnt consistant enough to not run off course, mess up their line, hit another car, or spin out while drifting so the thought isnt even applicable to most drivers, road racing on the other hand is much easier to remain some what consistant at. Average speed per lap is usually not that different and as long as you point your car in the right direction you will most likely go there. Drifting on the other hand is different, angle and direction are determined by both steering input and throttle position, it can be affected by tire heat and wear and many other things like road condition, pretty much anything can change what the driver needs to do to keep the car in a drift.
There is nothing wrong with drifting, but there are things that it is and things that it is not.
Two of the exact same cars with exactly the same setups and exactly the same slicks but one driver "gripped" and one "drifted". There would be no competition. Grip would win every time. (seeing as if the conditions were the same for each driver i.e. no mistakes). But realistically I dont see anyone drifting with competition slicks and actually being able to hold it the entire time unless they were like 205's and the car had like 400ft/lb of torque to the wheels.
Tell you what skihirevz9000 you go to a road course near you. Enter into an open track day and drift your car around every turn the entire day and try to keep count of how many cars pass you. If you can even keep count lmk and I will never say anything ever again. Of course you will need in car vid and your lap times as well but I think it would be a fair bet.
No one is saying they are pro or the greatest, it's just that there is truth and reality. 99.9999999%(guesstimated of course) of people who competitively drive are not going to win any race with a 20 car field while drifting. Of course a 600hp unrestricted (besides safety issues) drift car is going to beat a 230hp restricted road race car it has almost 3x's the power. And even then realistcally the average driver isnt consistant enough to not run off course, mess up their line, hit another car, or spin out while drifting so the thought isnt even applicable to most drivers, road racing on the other hand is much easier to remain some what consistant at. Average speed per lap is usually not that different and as long as you point your car in the right direction you will most likely go there. Drifting on the other hand is different, angle and direction are determined by both steering input and throttle position, it can be affected by tire heat and wear and many other things like road condition, pretty much anything can change what the driver needs to do to keep the car in a drift.
There is nothing wrong with drifting, but there are things that it is and things that it is not.
redifining** "smoked"
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: portland
okay... why it's really touching to see how much afro88 admires his mod idol. (insert audible cutsie sighs) anyways, i can't see how you keep running your mouths with broad generalizations- i.e. "99.99999%"... and no I didn't even say "if the cars are exactly the same and drivers drive without mistakes"... blah blah blah, I SAID that the driver dictates the outcome whether he opt's to late brake and oversteer might not matter at all. Especially if his opponent is a total n00b with a ego complex (see above...). which would you rather be? 4th place by sticking to other peoples lines, or 10th place and tearing the f*ck out the course. If you'd say the prior, I'd say your posting in the wrong thread... 
Generalizations? I said it's a guess i.e. exaggeration etc.
It's funny how you want to argue about your unrealistic dreams of how Initial D is real. It's a fun game and sometimes ok to watch but it's not real! (I dont know if thats what you truely believe but thats what it seems like)
Show me how good you are. Show me how you tear the track up. I never said I can do anything, so you are pretty much just blabbering about non sense and concluding that myself and others believe "we" are better than anyone who drifts. But one thing I do have is some experience of being on a road course as well as drifting in drift events(not saying you dont of course). I know what I have seen, and I have been to grip and slip events with proffesional level drivers on both ends and the drift drivers are never in front (thats not even the point of the event) nor do they care. Why would you enter a road race to drift? Why would you enter a drift event to road race? It's a waste of time and money, but you keep saying things about leaving someone gripping behind while you tear it up or something. But first you said "Also, the dispute over whether drifting offers an advantage on the track may never be settled, any driver- let alone drifter- loves to be the fastest, but if WE can leave you three lengths behind and look good doing it- well, that's a victory in itself." which leaves me to believe YOU believe YOU can do this, and then say " I SAID that the driver dictates the outcome whether he opt's to late brake and oversteer might not matter at all. Especially if his opponent is a total n00b with a ego complex (see above...)." which leads me to believe you believe you are a better driver than everyone here who thinks drifting is in no way shape or form faster. So who has the ego complex?
Also there would be no other way to prove that drifting is faster unless the playing fields were equally qualified. A good driver will beat a bad driver, that's common sense. But to be faster around the track than a mediocre (someone who isnt the best but has experience and knows what they are doing is what I mean by that) road racer the person drifting would have to be extremely talented, along the lines of the best in the world with years upon years of driving experience (not just drifting). I know that for a fact. No run of the mill amateur drifter (i.e. not begginer but not pro) is going to beat an experienced road racer in a timed event. Maybe in a rally or hill climb event where the roads are narrow but that isnt truely drifting and it's not completely gripping, hard braking in those conditions would be pointless and sliding slows them down just enough to not hit something.
I'm not trying to **** you off or anything. I'm just saying from what I have seen and experienced it's not going to happen. Maybe we are just talking about two tottally different kinds of drifting.
This is the road racing ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lLjC5Fhnmw )
I am comparing to this kind of drifting ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IkaGZyMgp8 )
Obviously there is a vast difference in speed and timeliness. Dont get me wrong Kuroi is a bad *** driver, one of the best D1 drivers imo. His entry speed was pretty fast compared to other peoples speed drifting on Tsukuba but still the super lap cars are much faster. I posted these vids because it is on the same course with similarly budgeted cars and similar power outputs and weights. I was going to post an ALMS gt race but those cars are even faster than the super lap cars so it wouldnt really be fair. Or I could post a vid of Ayrton Senna driving on suzuka (which was rediculous if I say so myself), but that would be far far far from an equal playing field.
Really.... calm down. I just see this as a good conversation on a difference of opinion. It's good to hear others opinion and think outside of your own thoughts for a while.
It's funny how you want to argue about your unrealistic dreams of how Initial D is real. It's a fun game and sometimes ok to watch but it's not real! (I dont know if thats what you truely believe but thats what it seems like)
Show me how good you are. Show me how you tear the track up. I never said I can do anything, so you are pretty much just blabbering about non sense and concluding that myself and others believe "we" are better than anyone who drifts. But one thing I do have is some experience of being on a road course as well as drifting in drift events(not saying you dont of course). I know what I have seen, and I have been to grip and slip events with proffesional level drivers on both ends and the drift drivers are never in front (thats not even the point of the event) nor do they care. Why would you enter a road race to drift? Why would you enter a drift event to road race? It's a waste of time and money, but you keep saying things about leaving someone gripping behind while you tear it up or something. But first you said "Also, the dispute over whether drifting offers an advantage on the track may never be settled, any driver- let alone drifter- loves to be the fastest, but if WE can leave you three lengths behind and look good doing it- well, that's a victory in itself." which leaves me to believe YOU believe YOU can do this, and then say " I SAID that the driver dictates the outcome whether he opt's to late brake and oversteer might not matter at all. Especially if his opponent is a total n00b with a ego complex (see above...)." which leads me to believe you believe you are a better driver than everyone here who thinks drifting is in no way shape or form faster. So who has the ego complex?
Also there would be no other way to prove that drifting is faster unless the playing fields were equally qualified. A good driver will beat a bad driver, that's common sense. But to be faster around the track than a mediocre (someone who isnt the best but has experience and knows what they are doing is what I mean by that) road racer the person drifting would have to be extremely talented, along the lines of the best in the world with years upon years of driving experience (not just drifting). I know that for a fact. No run of the mill amateur drifter (i.e. not begginer but not pro) is going to beat an experienced road racer in a timed event. Maybe in a rally or hill climb event where the roads are narrow but that isnt truely drifting and it's not completely gripping, hard braking in those conditions would be pointless and sliding slows them down just enough to not hit something.
I'm not trying to **** you off or anything. I'm just saying from what I have seen and experienced it's not going to happen. Maybe we are just talking about two tottally different kinds of drifting.
This is the road racing ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lLjC5Fhnmw )
I am comparing to this kind of drifting ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IkaGZyMgp8 )
Obviously there is a vast difference in speed and timeliness. Dont get me wrong Kuroi is a bad *** driver, one of the best D1 drivers imo. His entry speed was pretty fast compared to other peoples speed drifting on Tsukuba but still the super lap cars are much faster. I posted these vids because it is on the same course with similarly budgeted cars and similar power outputs and weights. I was going to post an ALMS gt race but those cars are even faster than the super lap cars so it wouldnt really be fair. Or I could post a vid of Ayrton Senna driving on suzuka (which was rediculous if I say so myself), but that would be far far far from an equal playing field.
Really.... calm down. I just see this as a good conversation on a difference of opinion. It's good to hear others opinion and think outside of your own thoughts for a while.
