Spic Racer GT40R
01-23-09, 11:45 PM
#151
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
Ian:
The thermal/reflective tape was lifting but has been fixed since. Also decided to reverse the orientation to better isolate the plug wires.
To answer your question directly, I did not get the 500R working well with my E6K. Though I still think the diagram is correct, I have my suspicions about what I may have done wrong. Here's what I've learned subsequently:
1) The 500R (HF version) multispark up to 5K RPMs if dwell is > .6 mSec. At swell times <.5 mSec, it will single spark. Therefore I should have (and I am currently using in the M4) a "Constant Charge" dwell vice "Constant Duty" (or Square Wave in the M4).
2) I may have not sufficiently reset the ECU when attempting new setting, and therefore missed the correct setting... an embarassing "noob" mistake.
3) I've heard of more than one 500R user say they used Rising Edge, though Ray Hall and my tuner both have said otherwise (i.e Fall Edge trigger). This could easily be tested with a high RPM ignition timing check. Never got there with the E6K.
I've only just started-up this latest setup and a week ago. So far so good with a dwell setting of 1.0 and a falling edge trigger. More to follow once I get the no-load maps finalized.
BTW, not real sure how the stock coils will hold up under a CDI's energy. Please make sure to check with your seller/tuner.
For what it's worth, here's a couple of picture of the BMEP/Pantera coils and how I mounted them.
Stainless sheetmetal brackets and 7075 spacers I fab'ed.1) The 500R (HF version) multispark up to 5K RPMs if dwell is > .6 mSec. At swell times <.5 mSec, it will single spark. Therefore I should have (and I am currently using in the M4) a "Constant Charge" dwell vice "Constant Duty" (or Square Wave in the M4).
2) I may have not sufficiently reset the ECU when attempting new setting, and therefore missed the correct setting... an embarassing "noob" mistake.
3) I've heard of more than one 500R user say they used Rising Edge, though Ray Hall and my tuner both have said otherwise (i.e Fall Edge trigger). This could easily be tested with a high RPM ignition timing check. Never got there with the E6K.
I've only just started-up this latest setup and a week ago. So far so good with a dwell setting of 1.0 and a falling edge trigger. More to follow once I get the no-load maps finalized.
BTW, not real sure how the stock coils will hold up under a CDI's energy. Please make sure to check with your seller/tuner.
For what it's worth, here's a couple of picture of the BMEP/Pantera coils and how I mounted them.
The thermal/reflective tape was lifting but has been fixed since. Also decided to reverse the orientation to better isolate the plug wires.
02-01-09, 02:00 AM
#153
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go the Mercury Coil !
Hey Carlos,
I've been a member of this forum for ages and have been reading it for much longer, but this is my first post. Your sagas with ignition ( and your seriously cool car ) have inspired me to add to the discussion.
I run an EMS Dual Sport ECU, M & W Pro 14 CDI, Mercury coil setup on my GT40R BP FC and love it ! Mine are mounted in a similar position to where you had yours and have been there working perfectly for about four years. I would be the first to admit though that the Mercury coils can be little devils ! When I first installed them I also had the broken ferrite thing and some grounding problems. The one thing I can suggest though is that it is most important to use a quality silicone between the ferrite tube and the coil body. This little trick makes all the difference !
I hope you go back to the MM coils eventually coz when they work the way they are intended they are awsome.
Good luck.
Cheers,
Tony
I've been a member of this forum for ages and have been reading it for much longer, but this is my first post. Your sagas with ignition ( and your seriously cool car ) have inspired me to add to the discussion.
I run an EMS Dual Sport ECU, M & W Pro 14 CDI, Mercury coil setup on my GT40R BP FC and love it ! Mine are mounted in a similar position to where you had yours and have been there working perfectly for about four years. I would be the first to admit though that the Mercury coils can be little devils ! When I first installed them I also had the broken ferrite thing and some grounding problems. The one thing I can suggest though is that it is most important to use a quality silicone between the ferrite tube and the coil body. This little trick makes all the difference !
I hope you go back to the MM coils eventually coz when they work the way they are intended they are awsome.
Good luck.
Cheers,
Tony
02-03-09, 06:47 AM
#154
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: trinidad and tobago
Posts: 2,715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did you ever get this 500R to work properly with the E6K. I just received my 500r and will be running it on the E8.
My friend say your diagram and said it was correct but had the wrong setup (falling rising not sure what he said). I hope to have better luck to you since I will not be changing setups. Just wondering how to use the stock coils. I know sequential is better but will be running sequential waste spark to save on the one pwm output.
Ian
Ian
My friend say your diagram and said it was correct but had the wrong setup (falling rising not sure what he said). I hope to have better luck to you since I will not be changing setups. Just wondering how to use the stock coils. I know sequential is better but will be running sequential waste spark to save on the one pwm output.
Ian
Ian
Do you have the R500 installed in the engine bay or cabin ? Be careful , I installed one in my engine bay and it died a premature death . I suspect it was heat related .
08-28-09, 10:22 AM
#156
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: chandler, AZ
Posts: 2,402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It looks like all the wiring labels say GND, so I would think that's a safe assumption.. The new Boddington's bracket is pretty nifty if I say so myself.. Car is getting new ID2000's (click for more info) and some tuning pretty soon here. I for one, am excited.
08-31-09, 05:56 AM
#158
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
Wow, six months without a post and we come back from the thread abyss... thanks.
VWH: yep, Grounding Bus to prevent ground loop issues... how'd ya guess?
Aaron: You're not the only one that's excite ! For anyone else that cares, I've been struggling to find the the time for the mechanical "due diligence" I've been able to afford in the past. Well, I've been coming up short. I finally swallowed my pride and sent to the car off to a pro to finish the tuning and complete a couple of small projects relegated to the back burner. So Yaw Power is going to stand in as my very capable mechanical surrogates. It's amazing to see progress without any effort on my part... I think this could be addicting!
The attached picture captures the first volley in my latest upgrade war. Thanks again for the Boodington's coolant overflow bracket Aaron! It finish off my rotary "black and tan" brilliantly!
VWH: yep, Grounding Bus to prevent ground loop issues... how'd ya guess?
Aaron: You're not the only one that's excite ! For anyone else that cares, I've been struggling to find the the time for the mechanical "due diligence" I've been able to afford in the past. Well, I've been coming up short. I finally swallowed my pride and sent to the car off to a pro to finish the tuning and complete a couple of small projects relegated to the back burner. So Yaw Power is going to stand in as my very capable mechanical surrogates. It's amazing to see progress without any effort on my part... I think this could be addicting!
The attached picture captures the first volley in my latest upgrade war. Thanks again for the Boodington's coolant overflow bracket Aaron! It finish off my rotary "black and tan" brilliantly!
It looks like all the wiring labels say GND, so I would think that's a safe assumption.. The new Boddington's bracket is pretty nifty if I say so myself.. Car is getting new ID2000's (click for more info) and some tuning pretty soon here. I for one, am excited.
Last edited by Gen2n3; 12-31-20 at 06:15 PM.
09-01-09, 06:47 PM
#161
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
I assume the $259 came from the T1 Race Developement website...
http://www.t1raceparts.com/product_p/id%202000.htm.
http://www.t1raceparts.com/product_p/id%202000.htm.
09-03-09, 05:32 AM
#164
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
Speedworks: I assume you're asking about the Exhaust Manifold Pressure (EMAP) ports. Those are just the two backpressure inputs that combine into an EMAP signal for the M4. The primary fuel & ignition tables for the MoTeC are mapped to ratio of MAP/EMAP by RPM, vice the more traditional MAP/Throttle by RPM.
I had a HKS EGT that I ran in the rear port. I chose to give up the input since I wasn't using as part of the ECU fuel/ignition compensation. I may add some in the future to just log in the the DASH. But that's for abother year...
I had a HKS EGT that I ran in the rear port. I chose to give up the input since I wasn't using as part of the ECU fuel/ignition compensation. I may add some in the future to just log in the the DASH. But that's for abother year...
03-24-10, 06:03 PM
#166
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
So rumor has that May might bring a shakedown just in time to make the Mazda Driver's event at VIR in June... guess we'll see if Murphy is still pissed at me!
Hey Aaron, any pictures of the newest sensor install would be very appreciated!
Hey Aaron, any pictures of the newest sensor install would be very appreciated!
05-21-10, 07:20 PM
#167
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
Murphy's agent and my conversion to a Bosch fanboy
Murphy's newest agent, E85, strikes at the 11th hour. Let this be a lesson to all of you converting, corn WILL scrub every last bit of rust from your tank and deposit in onto the absolute worst place.
Guess I'm now a triple Bosch setup: one in-tank feeding the surge tank and two pressurizing the fuel rails. Might come in handy with the 4 2000IDs in the rails.
Guess I'm now a triple Bosch setup: one in-tank feeding the surge tank and two pressurizing the fuel rails. Might come in handy with the 4 2000IDs in the rails.
Last edited by Gen2n3; 12-31-20 at 06:15 PM.
07-08-10, 07:45 PM
#170
Corn-to-Noise Converter
Thread Starter
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The Elysian Fields (Texas)
Posts: 1,527
Received 386 Likes
on
154 Posts
Stump the Chump!
Well, we've been getting our ***** kick all up and down the street by the new EFI install. Car runs like a champ: Start like OEM, idle smoothly, transitions seamlessly, runs great, hauls ***, and falls on its face at about 7K rpm. We've only tuned to 9psi so far until we figure out what's degrading the engine at the top. You can clearly hear the top-end hesitation in this dyno video: WTF!
At first we thought that it was a trigger or ignition issue. So out came the entire CDI setup and in went the Bosch inductive setup... same shiet!
We've exhaustively reveiwed the datalog... I know that I have at least 3 hours scouring just a couple of minutes of total dyno and street pull logs. I've ran correlations between every single channel in the car, and still the score is CYM Beayatch 1, Rotary Geeks 0!
Below is a representative log segment. Boost is controlled to 9 psi, fuel is E85 (actually 85% ethanol), and the CAS signals show no anomoly or interference. The vertical cursor is right at the hestitation onset... you can see it in the RPM slope's flattening.
The latest idea is to check for a possible restriction in the intake that might be acting like a restrictor... I just hope I didn't make a NASCAR mistake and leave something in the intake path (ala restrictor plate). Though I woudl be embarassed, it would be worth it just too finally solve the problem and finish this project.
OK, so what are some of you ideas? I've obviously failed miserably at solving the puzzle, so I'm hoping that a little "Rotary cowd-sourcing" might help. Bring it!
At first we thought that it was a trigger or ignition issue. So out came the entire CDI setup and in went the Bosch inductive setup... same shiet!
We've exhaustively reveiwed the datalog... I know that I have at least 3 hours scouring just a couple of minutes of total dyno and street pull logs. I've ran correlations between every single channel in the car, and still the score is CYM Beayatch 1, Rotary Geeks 0!
Below is a representative log segment. Boost is controlled to 9 psi, fuel is E85 (actually 85% ethanol), and the CAS signals show no anomoly or interference. The vertical cursor is right at the hestitation onset... you can see it in the RPM slope's flattening.
The latest idea is to check for a possible restriction in the intake that might be acting like a restrictor... I just hope I didn't make a NASCAR mistake and leave something in the intake path (ala restrictor plate). Though I woudl be embarassed, it would be worth it just too finally solve the problem and finish this project.
OK, so what are some of you ideas? I've obviously failed miserably at solving the puzzle, so I'm hoping that a little "Rotary cowd-sourcing" might help. Bring it!
07-09-10, 12:34 AM
#171
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: trinidad and tobago
Posts: 2,715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There can never b a restriction that kicks in only above 7000 rpm ! Check your trigger signals , and maps !.....................I rev to 11000k all day ! ..................u shoulda got a VIPECV 88 !
Well, we've been getting our ***** kick all up and down the street by the new EFI install. Car runs like a champ: Start like OEM, idle smoothly, transitions seamlessly, runs great, hauls ***, and falls on its face at about 7K rpm. We've only tuned to 9psi so far until we figure out what's degrading the engine at the top. You can clearly hear the top-end hesitation in this dyno video: WTF!
At first we thought that it was a trigger or ignition issue. So out came the entire CDI setup and in went the Bosch inductive setup... same shiet!
We've exhaustively reveiwed the datalog... I know that I have at least 3 hours scouring just a couple of minutes of total dyno and street pull logs. I've ran correlations between every single channel in the car, and still the score is CYM Beayatch 1, Rotary Geeks 0!
Below is a representative log segment. Boost is controlled to 9 psi, fuel is E85 (actually 85% ethanol), and the CAS signals show no anomoly or interference. The vertical cursor is right at the hestitation onset... you can see it in the RPM slope's flattening.
The latest idea is to check for a possible restriction in the intake that might be acting like a restrictor... I just hope I didn't make a NASCAR mistake and leave something in the intake path (ala restrictor plate). Though I woudl be embarassed, it would be worth it just too finally solve the problem and finish this project.
OK, so what are some of you ideas? I've obviously failed miserably at solving the puzzle, so I'm hoping that a little "Rotary cowd-sourcing" might help. Bring it!
At first we thought that it was a trigger or ignition issue. So out came the entire CDI setup and in went the Bosch inductive setup... same shiet!
We've exhaustively reveiwed the datalog... I know that I have at least 3 hours scouring just a couple of minutes of total dyno and street pull logs. I've ran correlations between every single channel in the car, and still the score is CYM Beayatch 1, Rotary Geeks 0!
Below is a representative log segment. Boost is controlled to 9 psi, fuel is E85 (actually 85% ethanol), and the CAS signals show no anomoly or interference. The vertical cursor is right at the hestitation onset... you can see it in the RPM slope's flattening.
The latest idea is to check for a possible restriction in the intake that might be acting like a restrictor... I just hope I didn't make a NASCAR mistake and leave something in the intake path (ala restrictor plate). Though I woudl be embarassed, it would be worth it just too finally solve the problem and finish this project.
OK, so what are some of you ideas? I've obviously failed miserably at solving the puzzle, so I'm hoping that a little "Rotary cowd-sourcing" might help. Bring it!
07-09-10, 12:36 AM
#172
Sorry to hear about this, I've always been impressed with the things you've done with this car.
Does the dyno suggest the car is making abnormally low power? If there were enough of a restriction to keep the engine from continuing to rev, I'd assume the car would be down on power even before the 'false redline.'
On that note, what is the rev limiter set to? Are there any secondary rev limiters (launch control, etc)? Have you tried adjusting the rev limiter to a lower RPM (say 5000) to ensure it sounds or feels differently?
Have you tried using a timing light to verify the spark isn't doing anything odd? I'd think you would hear more popping and banging from a spark problem, but it should be a pretty quick thing to test.
Can you rev past that RPM at part throttle / light load?
Does the dyno suggest the car is making abnormally low power? If there were enough of a restriction to keep the engine from continuing to rev, I'd assume the car would be down on power even before the 'false redline.'
On that note, what is the rev limiter set to? Are there any secondary rev limiters (launch control, etc)? Have you tried adjusting the rev limiter to a lower RPM (say 5000) to ensure it sounds or feels differently?
Have you tried using a timing light to verify the spark isn't doing anything odd? I'd think you would hear more popping and banging from a spark problem, but it should be a pretty quick thing to test.
Can you rev past that RPM at part throttle / light load?
07-09-10, 10:55 AM
#173
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: chandler, AZ
Posts: 2,402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to hear about this, I've always been impressed with the things you've done with this car.
Does the dyno suggest the car is making abnormally low power? If there were enough of a restriction to keep the engine from continuing to rev, I'd assume the car would be down on power even before the 'false redline.'
The mustang dyno was only reading ~240whp...
On that note, what is the rev limiter set to? Are there any secondary rev limiters (launch control, etc)? Have you tried adjusting the rev limiter to a lower RPM (say 5000) to ensure it sounds or feels differently?
I'm sure this has been looked at, but I can double check it
Have you tried using a timing light to verify the spark isn't doing anything odd? I'd think you would hear more popping and banging from a spark problem, but it should be a pretty quick thing to test.
Yes, we checked the ignition system sooo many times...
Can you rev past that RPM at part throttle / light load?
Car does revs fine under part throttle/light load and will even do it on the street since it can still break the tires loose, at least in 1st and 2nd. There's no safe strip of road near by and the brakes are currently too sketchy to try 3rd gear on the street, so unfortunately we only have simulated this on the dyno..
Does the dyno suggest the car is making abnormally low power? If there were enough of a restriction to keep the engine from continuing to rev, I'd assume the car would be down on power even before the 'false redline.'
The mustang dyno was only reading ~240whp...
On that note, what is the rev limiter set to? Are there any secondary rev limiters (launch control, etc)? Have you tried adjusting the rev limiter to a lower RPM (say 5000) to ensure it sounds or feels differently?
I'm sure this has been looked at, but I can double check it
Have you tried using a timing light to verify the spark isn't doing anything odd? I'd think you would hear more popping and banging from a spark problem, but it should be a pretty quick thing to test.
Yes, we checked the ignition system sooo many times...
Can you rev past that RPM at part throttle / light load?
Car does revs fine under part throttle/light load and will even do it on the street since it can still break the tires loose, at least in 1st and 2nd. There's no safe strip of road near by and the brakes are currently too sketchy to try 3rd gear on the street, so unfortunately we only have simulated this on the dyno..
The other thing we noticed is that the EMAP exceeds intake pressure almost exactly where the motor stops accelerating. We have a log from another car with almost identical turbo setups and EMAP increases gradually towards intake pressure nearing redline, but doesn't cross it...
07-09-10, 03:05 PM
#174
On flats
iTrader: (29)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 1,379
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The other thing we noticed is that the EMAP exceeds intake pressure almost exactly where the motor stops accelerating. We have a log from another car with almost identical turbo setups and EMAP increases gradually towards intake pressure nearing redline, but doesn't cross it...
If you've got another car with the same setup running, maybe there's a faulty wastegate? A somehow obstructed runner that generates backpressure more rapidly? How do the EGTs compare between the two cars?
07-09-10, 06:42 PM
#175
Rotary Freak
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: chandler, AZ
Posts: 2,402
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MAP/EMAP isn't really an experiment and is a standard efficiency calculation option in Motec ECU's. I've been running my car this way for the past couple years, as well as numerous other cars, including T1's 8 second integra. If EMAP overtakes MAP, the motor is at a lower efficiency and so should use less fuel... We're trying to figure out what's causing the restriction and decrease in efficiency, as the compressor map shows the turbo is well in its happy range at that point.
The wastegate seems to be functioning, as boost holds stable at 9psi. I've also thought maybe a physical obstruction in the manifold, but haven't had it all apart yet. I believe Carlos does not have any EGT sensors on the car, so can't compare that as of right now..
The wastegate seems to be functioning, as boost holds stable at 9psi. I've also thought maybe a physical obstruction in the manifold, but haven't had it all apart yet. I believe Carlos does not have any EGT sensors on the car, so can't compare that as of right now..