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Spic Racer GT40R

Old 06-28-05, 09:45 PM
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Thumbs up VIR Shakedown

Took the Spic Racer out for a shakedown at last weekend's Mazda Drivers event at VIRginia International Raceway. The Sat & Sun event ran for the first time the full 4.2 mile "Grand East" laypout, which was a handfull to learn for a VIR virgin. Fortunately the track was gentle to me, but once I knew it well, it turned out to be one HELL OF A LAY(out)!

The weather was just about perfect. The highs were in the low 80's with humidity about 25%.

Pictures:





Powertrain: The car ran like a bat of of hell ! Even with the boost controller OFF (and a 1 Bar WG spring) for both days, I could out accelerate EVERYTHING I came across. This included a "BPU" Viper and a 550RWP Mustang in my run group . I ran with the boost controller off intentionally to lessen the learning curve by flattening out my boost response curve for this first outing. Though I thought I could always turn it on, I never came close to the need from either a competitive or visceral perspective.

Though I would check Peak Hold values after every session, I did run datalogs of two full 30 minute session and I was quite please. Some max values (at 16psi max) included:
  • EGT (measure at the rear manifold runner): 910C
  • Air Temps (stock air temp location): 112F
  • Coolant (EWP controller set at 192F): 201F
  • Air Temp (measure at the oil filter inlet): 196F
Coolant: I attribute the car's coolant and oil temps stability to all of it's fastidious ducting. For example the only opening in the "mouth's" ducting is for air to the inlet filter. 99% of the rest is passed through the IC and then through the radiator. There is only a 3/4" gap between the two, and that perimeter is sealed in as well. Though the EWP didn't miss a beat, it doesn't add to the efficiency of the system. It does however manage the flow to maintain just enough flow to maintain the set temperature baseline (plus or minus approx 7 degrees F) without the parasitic drag of a belt-driven waterpump. It also provides the ability to run the pump after shutdown to ensure everything is properly cooled down after a session.

Summary: I'm thrilled with the car's powertrain, and the GT-40R's response in particular (thanks Sean). Though slight lag out of the "hairpin" after the front stretch and on the track-out after "Bitch" may have been attributed to the boost controller not being on, there was no where else on the track where I was ever for waiting for the wick to light. Even though I ran most of the track in third gear (while learning it), I really had to focus on catching it before 8500 rpms once it did spool up.

Power was never an issue. As a matter of fact, Tammy Robinson, who signed me off on both Saturday and Sunday and was a Viper Club chief instructor, mentioned several time just how much more "torque" my car than any car she had been in with the possible exception of a "full race GT-3" P-car. Needless to say, I took that as a resounding testament to the car's powertrain.

Suspension: The suspension has been pretty well sorted out for some time. The only significant new addition was the use of Pirelli P-Zero tires and the addition of M2's WSC racecar rear wing.

Though I've always ran DOT-R's, I decided to run street tires until sorted out the growing areo additions. I figure after I go through this set of Pirelli's, I'll look into a set of Pirelli Corsa DOT-Rs. As for the wing, I was delighted with how it planted the rear. I can easily equate the wing above 100 MPH to the additional traction a set of slicks with the added benefit of MUCH improve braking stability at speed. Admittedly, these improvements can all be exploited in a minority of the track.

With my current addition of the M2 splitter from the same car, I hope to leverage off of the two pieces in much more of a given track. Now I just need to stiffen all of the springs to take full advantage the aero setup... it never ends!

Brakes: I decided to run Nick's (a.k.a. N-Tech) race compound brake pads. I was very please. I never had so much as a hint of brake fade, though the moderate initial bite took a little more quadracept to initially set the brake. I did realize that I'll need to adjust the balance bar for slightly more rear bias, as I'm fairly certain I was under-utilizing the rear brakes. Admittedly, VIR is not a hard track on brakes, and I expect to really test these on my next trip to Sebring.

Conclusion: I couldn't have been happier with the car overall. I never used a wrench "in anger" the entire weekend. The car passed everything in sight. And most of all, I didn't really need the trailer that I towed the car on.

Next stop will most like be Sebring later this summer or early fall. It will definintely test just how robust the coolant/oil system is, as well as finding out whether the brakes or the driver has more "moxie."
Oh yea, and maybe I'll turn on the boost controller...
.
.
.

Last edited by [email protected]; 06-28-05 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Writer's Cramp
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Old 06-29-05, 12:30 AM
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What porting do you have on your motor? I must say your dyno hp curve looks great, much better than mine. But I was sprised to only see 5hp increase from 18.5 to 20.5psi.? Also what backside are you running on your gt40r? I am in the process of pulling my motor for a rebuild and porting. I made 427 on the dyno before on stock ports and 19 to 19.5psi of boost. Was done on a race gas mix and a/f was around 12. My goal now was for a bigger backside as I am running the gt40r with a .84 and 22-24psi and shooting for 500 this time. I am in no means chasing numbers but was hoping the race port with more boost would yield close to 500. I guess only time will tell.
Your car looks great and your setup sounds very durable!
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Old 06-29-05, 01:52 AM
  #53  
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Carlos, FWIW, I am using the pump circuit as we discussed, and I have 12.8 Vts at the pump, not sure why yours is misbehaving. That powerband is nuts, can we see the 20.5 psi graph alone? Brian Cain is tuning my motor in two weeks, then it's to the track. A cold air intake will really help you, I use a 4" version of the nitrile brake duct to navigate the engine bay. my IAT are ~105F sitting still, and ambient at speed. Thast is with a very large K&N filter between my IC, and my Radiator. I know you cannot put it there, but maybe somewhere else. It will make a big power/reliability difference. Other than that, looks perfect. Are you using an AST? Did you end up using a fuel cooler? I noticed my surge tank gets quite warm. Also, are you using an FPD? hanks, talk to you soon, Carl BTW, if you've not seen it, here's my toy
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Old 06-29-05, 06:01 AM
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Hey Sk8World. Thanks for the compliments. I ported the intake with RB's Street Port templates, and mildly"D" shaped the exhaust ports... guess I should have take pictures. As for the small power increase from 18.5 - 20.5, I have my suspicions. I've addressed those and look forward to putting it back on the dyno in a couple of weeks to test my theories out. I'll probably up the octane and run the maps to 25 lbs at the same time to see what's left in the turbo (with its .95 hot side). With the right setup, I think you should come very close to your goal. But as I've been forced to learn, I've always put down 25-50 fewer RW Horses than I expect to actually run. However the one positive trend is that the shortfall between expected and actual has be shrinking proportionally with my experience! ;-)<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Hey Carl. Thanks for all of the ideas. Perhaps I wasn’t clear, but I've been seeing full voltage (actually 13.5VDC) at both fuel pumps since I rewired the entire circuit. I am glad to hear that you’re back up on the "V's." The coolant fill pot acts as an AST, and I'm not using a fuel cooler, as I do not see its increase complexity offsetting the increase fuel flow. Finally, I love the color on your car. Always the FC is looking very track ready. On an aesthetic note, wished I had waited to find my daily driver M3 in the BMW version of that color (called "Avus Blues") instead of black.<o:p></o:p>
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Old 07-03-05, 04:04 PM
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Glad to see it is turning out well.
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Old 07-20-05, 12:09 PM
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Spic Splitter

Finished up the "Spic Splitter" this afternoon. Started with the old M2 WSC car's splitter that I bought about 3 months ago. The black anodized splitter was designed for their Mazdaspeed GTC front fascia. After finding out that the outline for the GTC and '99 front spoiler are VERY different I warmed up the old bandsaw.

With the leading edge cut and shapped, I positioned the splitter with a 2" leading edge relative to the '99 spoiler. To fasten it, I used nutserts with 1" x 2" 1/8 stainles backing plate riveted into the '99 spoiler and undertray. I also created 1" hexagonical aluminum extension pillars off of the right and left chasis frame rails by the stock understray mounting positions (guess I should have take pictures). This is secured by M8 stainless studs to the rail and cap head sockets pillar to the splitter. Pretty sure it on well since I can stand on the front of splitter!

Laid down 1/8" self-adhesive close-cell edging to seal the spoiler and the splitter gap. After re-drilling compatible hole, I countersunk all of holes for the M6 socket caps and edged the front of the front of the splitter with "helicopter" or leading edge tape.

Would have like to had the splitter at about 3 degrees more leading edge down, but my protrator show 4 degrees leading edge up. This is still in-work.

Of course, the following picture are narcissistically provide:







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Old 07-20-05, 01:52 PM
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Looks fabulous Carlos.
Might I be so bold as to follow in your footsteps?

Crispy
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Old 08-03-05, 01:21 PM
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the car looks and sounds awesome. congrats.

couple of questions for you:
- do you really need to use the 99 lip with the splitter.
- do you have any other pics of the rad/ic ducting.

thanks.
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Old 08-05-05, 06:20 PM
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Hey Alberto:

Thanks for the compliment. After doing a little high speed mapping while coming back from Daytona last weekend, I'm very happy with the splitter's effectiveness. Now if I can just stop smashing my lower shins into the aluminum edge, I'll be a much happier camper!

Didn't directly need the '99 lip. It did however simplify the install with regards to the splashguard, radiator sealing and brake ducts. Considered making the entire splashguard/splitter/lip ala Damian, but went with this compromise instead. Of course, YMMV.

I'll try to get some pictures of the radiator and brake ducts later this weekend. Unfortunately, unless I remove the front fascia you won't get a good sense of the design. Additionally, the radiator/IC/intake setup is a one-off, so I'm not so sure how applicable it would be to anyone, other than the over all design idea.

Crispy:

Thanks for the greatly appreciated compliment.

As for following "in my footsteps," I can think of fewer higher compliments than having Gene or you leverage off of one of my ideas. Besides, it's not as if my car doesn't have ideas that originated in your car!

BTW, hope you saw my offer in the other thread. Let me know via PM.
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Old 08-06-05, 03:05 PM
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thanks for the info.

i've got SleepR1's old car with a Greddy FMIC and a Koyo rad and I need to do some kind of ducting. I see the car running warmer than desired on the street and I see room for improvement overall through some ducting possibly combined with some kind of splitter that directs air to the radiator under the FMIC. I'll have to check out Damian's thread to see what you mean.

have fun driving her!
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Old 08-07-05, 03:08 PM
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Hello Carlos,

I was looking at the pictures of your cooling setup and was wondering, why do you send hot coolant coming from the engine to the bottom of the radiator and pick up cool coolant from the top? This might be dangerous as you end up pumping a steam-filled coolant froth back to the engine instead of fully liquid coolant. Steam serves no cooling purpose at all. Plus, if you get but the smallest coolant leak, your pump won't be able to pump anything at all, as the coolant level of the system won't reach the top of the radiator, assuring your pump will only get to pump steam. I can see that you have got a steam catch can high above the engine, but still, you seem to have built a cooling system with no margin for failure built in. And you are telling of running at 201F, which might not steam up the coolant given a 13lbs cap, but locallized temps (like at the turbo bearing or near the spark plugs) will sure be higher than that, assuring the pressence of steam somewhere in the system, which the radiator might not be able to liquify quick enough as steam tends to float up the radiator faster than the speed at which the liquid carrying it moves. This is the only miss I can see on an otherwise very strongly built up cooling system, but a very troubling detail nonetheless, at least from my point of view. In fact, I wasn't sure that I should build a front mount intercooler system with a stacked up radiator like yours for my FD instead of the so common V mount that everybody seems to be favoring now untill you showed your nice'n'cool numbers, as it has been very troubling for me to have the radiator's lower tank sticking it up front and low on the car as all V mount arrangements leave you with, not a good thing to have on a circuit stormer that has to also deal with street driving, meaning on road woop-de-doos and steep angled driveways. Plus I want to keep the oringinal bumper, as I am not sold on any aftermarket front end. So Carlos, switch those radiator hoses around and breath easier, PLEASE!
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Old 08-07-05, 04:41 PM
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All that would matter only if he is running water, which I don't think he is, but I don't remember him mentioning it either. As I've said a million times on here VMIC,FMIC whatever ducting/sealing is the key more than anything.
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Old 08-07-05, 09:43 PM
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Efini. Thanks for the compliments, concern and recommendations.

Two aspects of your concerns that I'd like to address:

1) I run a 25 lbs Stant Racing cap and not a 13lb cap as you assumed. I run 100% distilled water with WaterWetter, and the system has been leak tested to 30lbs. At only 23 psi (77 inches of HG absolute pressure), the boiling point of water is 299 degrees F.

2) There is NO steam or "steam-filled coolant" in my radiator. If there is ANY, I have a MUCH, MUCH bigger problem than just the flow orientation in my radiator. Any steam in the system would manifest itself at the furthest point downsteam in the engine first, after the water has increased to max temp prior to exiting the engine enroute the radiator. It would also mean that the water temp has exceeded the aforementioned 299F.

To monitor water temps, my HKS (peak/hold/alarm) gauge alarm is set at 220F and sensed at the radiator inlet. I also have an HKS (peak/hold/alarm) oil temp gauge that trends 7-10F cooler than water temps and is set to alarm at 230F. So it is virtually impossible for the water to get anywhere near the system's boiling point without my knowing it directly (water temp) or indirectly (oil temp) at least 60F prior. And though multiple concurent failures are possible, they are outside of reasonable design risk analysis in this appication.

All this said, I do agree with your overall point that theoretically the system would be inverted. However, after discussing the design with the C&R tech guys who custom built the radiator, they concurred with the marginal design degradation being acceptable in lieu of the "packaging" inprovements the setup afforded.

Sean: As usual, I think you are right on the money: ducting, ducting, ducting. Though my front fascia is significantly larger than stock, I continue to attribute the success I've had with cooling systems to fastidious attention to system ducting/sealing more than any other single aspect. This particular car has the intake completed ducted in with the one exception of a feed to the air intake. Also the small offset between the IC and the radiator is completely sealed around the perimeter with 1" hi-temp, closed-cell foam.
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Old 08-08-05, 12:01 AM
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Carlos, great to know that you have all the bases covered on your cooling system design. In fact, yours is the most painstakingly thought through system I've ever seen in pictures for an FD, unlike a lot of others where I've seen stock replacement aftermarket radiators (of the Koyo kind, etc.) installed at an angle way more upright than stock so as to fit a FMIC, but having the engine's coolant outlet hose making a very worrysome looking U that keeps steam trapped behind on the engine's side without a way for it to reach the radiator's upper tank or alternatively to a catch can, not to say the total lack of correct shrouding between the FMIC and the radiator that FDs with FMICs usually run with. Just keep in mind Carlos that, although your water temps at the radiator's inlet don't get even near your system's boiling point, remember that localized hot spots, again as on the turbo bearing housing and near the spark plugs, do get hotter than that, and steam always happen on them, no matter what Redline says about their Water Wetter. This steam is much harder to cool down than liquid water, so if it is not liquidfied by the sheer pressure of your cooling system or the chemical action of the Water Wetter, or the running through the radiator's fins, it will float up your radiator's upper tank and then get sucked by the water pump, which will then cavitate and then end up having no liquid water to pump back into your engine. I guess that, as you said that the C&R tech guys thought it was OK to have your system as it is, and given that your actual on the track temps prove you right, everything should be working OK for you and my fears are totally unfounded, but I don't see it too hard to re-reoute the system and get yourself a nice boost of margin for anything that might happen. Yes, I know I'm getting to be a PITA for you on this subject, but I'll really hate to see such a nice setup encounter something down the road which might give you a problem which a simple re-routing would have prevented.

On the other hand, your mentioning of using a 25lbs cap and Sean's guess that you were running on Evans' NPG leads me to ask you the following question: what type of O rings are you using on your housings, OEM Mazdas' or aftermarket Teflon-encapsulated? And to Sean and anybody else who's reading these lines: is it true that Evans' NPG do melt down Teflon-encapsulated O rings? Is it safe to keep our beer kegs at 25lbs of pressure? (I know that REAL beer kegs DO hold pressures higher than 25lbs )

Last edited by EFINI_RX-7_RZ; 08-08-05 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 08-08-05, 05:28 PM
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One more question for you Carlos.

Did you need to remove the black cross member that is normally behind the radiator up front for your setup?
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Old 08-08-05, 09:40 PM
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Efini. Though we mostly agree, I suspect that on some aspects, we will just have to "agree to disagree." However, I do VERY MUCH appreciate the civil and productive dialog; such a rare and precious commodity on this forum!

Alberto. Yes, the cross member was ditched in my setup. Also my apologies for no pics yet. Resetting to have the duct pictures posted by next Saturday.
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Old 08-09-05, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Alberto. Yes, the cross member was ditched in my setup. Also my apologies for no pics yet. Resetting to have the duct pictures posted by next Saturday.

Quite alright. Thanks for remembering
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Old 08-20-05, 10:55 PM
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Front Fascia Ducting

So it's Saturday and here's the pictures.

Overall front fascia:




Aft sheetmetal "bridge" + Splitter attachment points:
The sheet metal "bridge" maintains the aft edges in alighment. You can clearly see the stainless backing plates reinforcing the nutserts that are the attachment points on the splitter.





Front fascia ducting "roof:" Though not evident from the picture, the duct does seal the top of the fascia against the raditor (and IC).




Front fascia Air Intake inlet: See engine pictures earlier in the thread for orientation of the K&N and hardpipes.




99 splitter to 93 brake duct ducting: Sorry about the crappy shot.



.

Last edited by [email protected]; 08-20-05 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 08-21-05, 01:08 AM
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Amazing, amazing, AMAZING!!! Your setup is just proof positive that frontal area ducting is the key for a high efficiency cooling system. What sizes intercooler and radiator cores are you running? And what is your electric fan's diamenter and CFM capacity? And how did you enlarge the bumper's radiator opening? Your setup is REAL INSPIRATION for me! It makes V-mounts look SO OVER-RATED!

So Carlos, you have not answered yet my last question about what type of housing O rings you are using. And, BTW, since this thread is the "Home of the 'Spic Racing GT40R'", why don't you post here, too, a detailed description of your engine? The masses are claiming for more INSPIRATIONAL READING! Long live Carlos's 'Spic Racing GT40R'!
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Old 08-21-05, 03:45 AM
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carlos, this thing is totally awesome...

how much do us FC guys have to pay to get a nice solid splitter like that made for our cars?
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Old 08-21-05, 10:23 AM
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wow. some real talent and skill went into that. that is an incredibly well thought out and engineered setup.

thanks for the pics.
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Old 08-21-05, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected]
Efini. Thanks for the compliments, concern and recommendations.

Two aspects of your concerns that I'd like to address:

1) I run a 25 lbs Stant Racing cap and not a 13lb cap as you assumed. I run 100% distilled water with WaterWetter, and the system has been leak tested to 30lbs. At only 23 psi (77 inches of HG absolute pressure), the boiling point of water is 299 degrees F.

2) There is NO steam or "steam-filled coolant" in my radiator. If there is ANY, I have a MUCH, MUCH bigger problem than just the flow orientation in my radiator. Any steam in the system would manifest itself at the furthest point downsteam in the engine first, after the water has increased to max temp prior to exiting the engine enroute the radiator. It would also mean that the water temp has exceeded the aforementioned 299F.

To monitor water temps, my HKS (peak/hold/alarm) gauge alarm is set at 220F and sensed at the radiator inlet. I also have an HKS (peak/hold/alarm) oil temp gauge that trends 7-10F cooler than water temps and is set to alarm at 230F. So it is virtually impossible for the water to get anywhere near the system's boiling point without my knowing it directly (water temp) or indirectly (oil temp) at least 60F prior. And though multiple concurent failures are possible, they are outside of reasonable design risk analysis in this appication.

All this said, I do agree with your overall point that theoretically the system would be inverted. However, after discussing the design with the C&R tech guys who custom built the radiator, they concurred with the marginal design degradation being acceptable in lieu of the "packaging" inprovements the setup afforded.

Sean: As usual, I think you are right on the money: ducting, ducting, ducting. Though my front fascia is significantly larger than stock, I continue to attribute the success I've had with cooling systems to fastidious attention to system ducting/sealing more than any other single aspect. This particular car has the intake completed ducted in with the one exception of a feed to the air intake. Also the small offset between the IC and the radiator is completely sealed around the perimeter with 1" hi-temp, closed-cell foam.
Carlos, Did you design the setup or did C&R? Did they do it to your specs? And do you have contact information for them? Maybe I should search...but if you have someone you have dealt with that would be better. Thanks.

Tony
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Old 08-22-05, 12:52 PM
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Nice work. My IC/Radiator are completely sealed. I can hold 200 water, and 210 oil at 20 psi for ~20 minutes on my TII. Thats ~480rwhp FWIW. Again, congrats Carlos on the nice job. My IC is 33x10x3, and my radiator is ~22x24x3 I have two stock oil coolers, and I do not find that having ~ a foot between the IC, and the radiator creates a problem. My oil coolers are in front of my rad. also. I have an aluminum plenum that collects air from in front of the IC(actually blocks the top two rows), and brings it up, and over the IC, and into the oil coolers, and radiator. Roughly equal frontal, and hood openings are critical. A cantilevered hood helps even more. Carl
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Old 08-25-05, 11:26 AM
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Wait, did this car come from the west coast with an Rx6 and just about everything as pictured here but needed hoses built? Previous owner...name escapes me...worked for a company that makes aftermarekt brakes? Ahh...I have now found pictures from those days. Glad you took the Rx6 off. I was seriously looking at that car when you bought it!

Congrats! And if you happen to have the contact information or can get me in touch with the previous owner I have some questions about the radiator setup. Thanks.

Tony
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Old 08-25-05, 02:20 PM
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