Spic Racer GT40R
05-09-05, 11:00 PM
#27
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Don't I wish that the EWP came with everything!. 
Literally the only piece that is original is the pump itself. There is not a single component that was not custom fab'ed, include the aluminum inlet/outlet to the water pump. The original ones were plastic hose ends. I need an AN fitting end, and besides the plastic was determine to be a probabley long-term failure point.\
Looking forward to a review of the waterpump setup, having at least a
secondary electric pump is something I want on my cars.
For those of you that like my catch can, wait till you see my coolant overflow... can you say, "Black & Tan!"
Better be careful - you'll give the troopers a reason to bust you if they pull you
over - "Hey, he's got an open can of beer in there!"
Carlos, here's to having it run like it looks...
David
Literally the only piece that is original is the pump itself. There is not a single component that was not custom fab'ed, include the aluminum inlet/outlet to the water pump. The original ones were plastic hose ends. I need an AN fitting end, and besides the plastic was determine to be a probabley long-term failure point.\
Looking forward to a review of the waterpump setup, having at least a
secondary electric pump is something I want on my cars.
For those of you that like my catch can, wait till you see my coolant overflow... can you say, "Black & Tan!"
Better be careful - you'll give the troopers a reason to bust you if they pull you
over - "Hey, he's got an open can of beer in there!"
Carlos, here's to having it run like it looks...
David
05-10-05, 12:26 AM
#29
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Looks great , very nice work . I have a question though , shouldn't the hot (less dense) water from the motor go to the top of the radiator , flown down through it to be cooled and collect in the lower tank from where it is cooler and denser . The water is then pulled by the pump and discharged into the engine ?.
05-10-05, 01:07 PM
#31
Originally Posted by Zero R
I would keep a close eye on that pump. They are known to have a short lifespan. I'm sure that's not what you want to hear but it is the main reason I went with a CSR.
05-10-05, 01:51 PM
#32
I know exactly someone who did that. Went through three of them. My CSR wasn't THAT expensive. Besides I don't know about you but I'm not wanting to wonder where and when or what I may overheat. If he runs the pump binary it may work better but running it variable will burn it up.
05-10-05, 07:27 PM
#33
Hey, where did my $$$ go?
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Originally Posted by the_glass_man
At a $140 you could buy a few of them for the CSR and change them out. They do come with a 2 year warranty.
That wouldnt make it so financially appealing hehe
Stephen
05-11-05, 10:48 PM
#34
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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Sorry guys, but I've been swamped at work so I'll try and play catch-up:
SEAN: Though the Davies Craig Electric Water Pumps (EWP) are rate at 2000 hour (with the 2 year warranty), it is at 12v continous. I have heard of people "out there" that have had failure of the EWP. However, a few facts that put me at ease about the pumps' real world durability:
1. I use the EWP controller and have extensively recorded the voltage and cycles MY pump operates at. With the proper resistor inline, I'm able to control my temp between 174 and 195. This is also the temps that I have my fan come on and off at. At 174F the EWP Controller is putting out it's min duty cycle of 3.5v cycled on and off at aproximately 1-2 second intervals. At 190F, the controller is only puting out 9.0v continuous. If I had to make an estimate, I'd say I usually run right at 180F on the highway, 180-190F in the city and on tracks. My point is that the EWP Controller substantially reduces the pumps output by providing optimal power to the pump and no more. I wonder how many of those that failed were either wired for continuous full voltage to the pump or had a binary (traditional) temp switch. Either of these would work the pump significantly more than it was designed for.
2. I do give (perhaps too much) credit to the fact that ProDrive has been using the same EWP for years. It was in their LeMans winning 550 Maranello from a couple of years ago. I have the near admiration for the engineering aptitude of the company and suspect that they would not compromise the design integrity of their premier effort with a less than optimal product. That said, I do realize that a 24 hour race is world's away from the rated MTBF for the EWP.
3. I bought and keep around an extra one!
It sort of tough to compare systems, though I'm confident that I have one of the most robust coolant systems on any rotary. In a lot of way, it was one of the original design center pieces for the car. Even with a front mount IC, the car has never shown even a glimmer of coolant system discrepancy in the Florida summer (knocking on wood). I have looked at other electric water pumps. If they had been readily availble several years ago when this process started, it might have made a different choice, though I'm not sure. As it was, the pump had to be purchased from overseas (Demon Tweeks) because there were no suitable source(s) back here in the States.
MARCEL: Your right about the convective nature of coolant in a radiator. However, after a discussion with C&R, who custom built the radiator, they though the inefficiency insignificant at the expect flow rate. Packaging the components in the engine bay trumped the marginal cooling inefficiency.
STEPHEN: Just a couple of pictures and not that great at that. It is a somewhat complicated bracket that uses some of the PS/AC bracket mounting points. The black powder coating is for sheer bling. I also threw in the DC EWP Controller picture cause I already had it in taken.
Thanks to all of the feedback. I do very much appreciate it... os keep it coming. It can only encourage me to share more...
EDIT: Should have taken a better look at the orientation of the pictures before I uploaded... sorry.
SEAN: Though the Davies Craig Electric Water Pumps (EWP) are rate at 2000 hour (with the 2 year warranty), it is at 12v continous. I have heard of people "out there" that have had failure of the EWP. However, a few facts that put me at ease about the pumps' real world durability:
1. I use the EWP controller and have extensively recorded the voltage and cycles MY pump operates at. With the proper resistor inline, I'm able to control my temp between 174 and 195. This is also the temps that I have my fan come on and off at. At 174F the EWP Controller is putting out it's min duty cycle of 3.5v cycled on and off at aproximately 1-2 second intervals. At 190F, the controller is only puting out 9.0v continuous. If I had to make an estimate, I'd say I usually run right at 180F on the highway, 180-190F in the city and on tracks. My point is that the EWP Controller substantially reduces the pumps output by providing optimal power to the pump and no more. I wonder how many of those that failed were either wired for continuous full voltage to the pump or had a binary (traditional) temp switch. Either of these would work the pump significantly more than it was designed for.
2. I do give (perhaps too much) credit to the fact that ProDrive has been using the same EWP for years. It was in their LeMans winning 550 Maranello from a couple of years ago. I have the near admiration for the engineering aptitude of the company and suspect that they would not compromise the design integrity of their premier effort with a less than optimal product. That said, I do realize that a 24 hour race is world's away from the rated MTBF for the EWP.
3. I bought and keep around an extra one!
It sort of tough to compare systems, though I'm confident that I have one of the most robust coolant systems on any rotary. In a lot of way, it was one of the original design center pieces for the car. Even with a front mount IC, the car has never shown even a glimmer of coolant system discrepancy in the Florida summer (knocking on wood). I have looked at other electric water pumps. If they had been readily availble several years ago when this process started, it might have made a different choice, though I'm not sure. As it was, the pump had to be purchased from overseas (Demon Tweeks) because there were no suitable source(s) back here in the States.
MARCEL: Your right about the convective nature of coolant in a radiator. However, after a discussion with C&R, who custom built the radiator, they though the inefficiency insignificant at the expect flow rate. Packaging the components in the engine bay trumped the marginal cooling inefficiency.
STEPHEN: Just a couple of pictures and not that great at that. It is a somewhat complicated bracket that uses some of the PS/AC bracket mounting points. The black powder coating is for sheer bling. I also threw in the DC EWP Controller picture cause I already had it in taken.
Thanks to all of the feedback. I do very much appreciate it... os keep it coming. It can only encourage me to share more...
EDIT: Should have taken a better look at the orientation of the pictures before I uploaded... sorry.
Last edited by Gen2n3; 12-31-20 at 06:15 PM.
05-12-05, 05:56 AM
#35
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I'm looking forward to riding in that finely polished piece of garage art this weekend. I'll bring the worlds fasted TD06-20g turboed RX7 so you'll have something to chase.
HUGS :-)
FYI, the techline turbo X coating came in yesterday...go figure
HUGS :-)
FYI, the techline turbo X coating came in yesterday...go figure
05-12-05, 09:02 AM
#36
Carlos, the people I spoke of used the pump controller as well. They also compete. Prodrive makes nice cars as well! I'm not saying your stuff wont work, just be careful it was the varying voltage to the pump that shortened the motor life on the pump. I wanted to use that pump as well, I just seen a few people have bad experiences with it. Hopefully you will not in which case I may switch mine out for yours since that pump was my first choice. PLease keep us informed.
since that pump was my first choice. PLease keep us informed.
05-12-05, 09:50 AM
#37
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I´m installing the DC EWP on my car, and there is alot of parts that need to be manufactured to make it fit... this one for example!
And Carlos, your car looks amazing!!
And Carlos, your car looks amazing!!
Last edited by Gen2n3; 12-31-20 at 06:15 PM.
05-12-05, 10:33 AM
#38
Originally Posted by molehill
I´m installing the DC EWP on my car, and there is alot of parts that need to be manufactured to make it fit... this one for example!
And Carlos, your car looks amazing!!
And Carlos, your car looks amazing!!
Hey I make those!! Anytime you switch out the pump there is a lot no doubt.
05-12-05, 10:34 AM
#39
NorCal 7's Co-founder
Wow, that really looks nice Carlos!!
Could you list the parts that you had to fab for the EWP? I would like to know just how much stuff I'll have to make before I buy the pump. Thanks in advance.
Zach
Could you list the parts that you had to fab for the EWP? I would like to know just how much stuff I'll have to make before I buy the pump. Thanks in advance.
Zach
05-12-05, 11:00 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by Zero R
Hey I make those!! Anytime you switch out the pump there is a lot no doubt.
I think I´ll use the OMP block off plate to mount the pump at, and the alt relocation is at the drawing table right now...
05-13-05, 01:02 PM
#41
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
Boy, it's amazing what a Cuban with a pair of vise grips can do 
. Lookin' good buddy!
Gotta love all the button-head fasteners too.
Keep up the good work! Hopefully I'll see you at the BBQ end of the month.
Dale
. Lookin' good buddy!Gotta love all the button-head fasteners too
.Keep up the good work! Hopefully I'll see you at the BBQ end of the month.
Dale
05-14-05, 06:13 AM
#44
Originally Posted by molehill
You do?! I wish I had known that, before my "tool shop friend" made this one!
I think I´ll use the OMP block off plate to mount the pump at, and the alt relocation is at the drawing table right now...
I think I´ll use the OMP block off plate to mount the pump at, and the alt relocation is at the drawing table right now...
http://kgparts.com/jay-tech.htm
-Max
05-14-05, 07:42 AM
#45
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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Thanks Dale. But it's a REALLY nice set of Snap-on vicegrips!! REALLY hope to see ya at the BBQ, though I realize it's a long drive.
JoeRoA: Gracias. Anything in particular you'd like to see in pictures. I need to take pictures of the exterior with the with the new (M2) wing. I'll probabley do that this weekend.
Rexset: The turbo has an integral restrictor insider the oil inlet, so no additional restricor was use.
The first runs were very encouraging. In 4th gear, I was seeing max boost by 4200 RPM. As several have mentioned, the larger exhaust housing seem to make throttle response below boost threshold much crisper, though the boost doesn't come on quite as quickly. I've taken three datalog off of the E6K, but only reviewed them for A/F, coolant and air intake. I'll need to go back and check boost response.
Long story made short: so far so good.
JoeRoA: Gracias. Anything in particular you'd like to see in pictures. I need to take pictures of the exterior with the with the new (M2) wing. I'll probabley do that this weekend.
Rexset: The turbo has an integral restrictor insider the oil inlet, so no additional restricor was use.
The first runs were very encouraging. In 4th gear, I was seeing max boost by 4200 RPM. As several have mentioned, the larger exhaust housing seem to make throttle response below boost threshold much crisper, though the boost doesn't come on quite as quickly. I've taken three datalog off of the E6K, but only reviewed them for A/F, coolant and air intake. I'll need to go back and check boost response.
Long story made short: so far so good.
05-22-05, 08:06 PM
#46
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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So far I'm delighted with the GT40R's performance. Getting addicted to the siren's call to speed from the anti-surge housing's whistle!
Boost pattern/threshold during today's 19 psi tuning run in 4th gear (low 80F conditions):
RPM MAP INTERVAL
4080 10.1 00:02.8
4080 9.2 00:02.9
4140 10.1 00:03.0
4140 11.2 00:03.1
4200 13.9 00:03.2
4260 13.9 00:03.3
4260 14.8 00:03.5
4320 16.5 00:03.6
4400 18.6 00:03.7
4460 19.2 00:03.8
Hope to get it on the dyno in less than three weeks. Even in current tune it's impressive... but only the number will tell the unbiased story.
Deficiencies: I need to correct an inordinately high injector duty cycle. Initial troubleshooting points to low voltage at the secondary pump (Aeromotive A1000), a result of crappy wiring on my part. Will confirm suspected fuel pressure drop before I begin the annoying job of rewiring both fuel pumps.
Boost pattern/threshold during today's 19 psi tuning run in 4th gear (low 80F conditions):
RPM MAP INTERVAL
4080 10.1 00:02.8
4080 9.2 00:02.9
4140 10.1 00:03.0
4140 11.2 00:03.1
4200 13.9 00:03.2
4260 13.9 00:03.3
4260 14.8 00:03.5
4320 16.5 00:03.6
4400 18.6 00:03.7
4460 19.2 00:03.8
Hope to get it on the dyno in less than three weeks. Even in current tune it's impressive... but only the number will tell the unbiased story.
Deficiencies: I need to correct an inordinately high injector duty cycle. Initial troubleshooting points to low voltage at the secondary pump (Aeromotive A1000), a result of crappy wiring on my part. Will confirm suspected fuel pressure drop before I begin the annoying job of rewiring both fuel pumps.
Last edited by carlos@the-rotary.net; 05-22-05 at 08:10 PM.
05-29-05, 04:17 PM
#47
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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Dyno "puddin' "
So here's "the pudding" (as in "the proof is in..." ) :
I'm very happy with the turbo's performance in specific and the car's in general. I'm especially delighted with the area under the curve (flat and broad).
TURBO:
- Graphs include only four of the seven runs I did in the 23 minutes total I was on the dyno.
- Beautiful Florida temps noted on the graph.
- First runs were off-the-chart rich.
- Bottom run show some of the rich stumble at the top.
- Air intake rose 68F degrees due to heat soak by the last run. Guess the ceramic coating, heat wrap and turbo blanket can only do so much!
- All runs with fuel spec'ed at an average of 96 octance and a specific gravity of .75 .
- EGT (max) sensed in the rear manifold runner located two inches from the rear exhaust port: 875C .
Subsequent to the dyno, I've tweaked the maps in the 7-7.5K RPM range to bring the AFR down about .5 and bumped up the acceleration enrichment to flatten the 4K spike at WOT.
I suspect that runs up to 25 psi will yield more power according to the increasing output in light of off-setting Intake Temp increase. I'll fuel-up with straight 104 unleaded and give it a go, but that will not be until after VIR in June. Definintely look forward to seeing the output with more reasonable intake temps at the turbo's efficiency edge.
COOLANT/OIL SYSTEMS: Even with the marginal fans provided by the shop, the coolant never got above 205F, and the oil temps shadowed the coolant temps by 5-7F degrees. Needless to say, I've check the success box with regards to this aspect of the engine's design.
IGNITION: These runs were performed with stock ignition coils and ignitors, but BR10EIX plugs in all four positions. I'd point to a properly wired ignition system with the correct dwell times set in the Haltech as the reason for the ignition system's flawless performance.
Many thanks to DRC for his invaluable help as my cohort in all thing rotary and fiscally irresponsible (an oymoron I think!)
I'm very happy with the turbo's performance in specific and the car's in general. I'm especially delighted with the area under the curve (flat and broad).
TURBO:
- Graphs include only four of the seven runs I did in the 23 minutes total I was on the dyno.
- Beautiful Florida temps noted on the graph.
- First runs were off-the-chart rich.
- Bottom run show some of the rich stumble at the top.
- Air intake rose 68F degrees due to heat soak by the last run. Guess the ceramic coating, heat wrap and turbo blanket can only do so much!
- All runs with fuel spec'ed at an average of 96 octance and a specific gravity of .75 .
- EGT (max) sensed in the rear manifold runner located two inches from the rear exhaust port: 875C .
Subsequent to the dyno, I've tweaked the maps in the 7-7.5K RPM range to bring the AFR down about .5 and bumped up the acceleration enrichment to flatten the 4K spike at WOT.
I suspect that runs up to 25 psi will yield more power according to the increasing output in light of off-setting Intake Temp increase. I'll fuel-up with straight 104 unleaded and give it a go, but that will not be until after VIR in June. Definintely look forward to seeing the output with more reasonable intake temps at the turbo's efficiency edge.
COOLANT/OIL SYSTEMS: Even with the marginal fans provided by the shop, the coolant never got above 205F, and the oil temps shadowed the coolant temps by 5-7F degrees. Needless to say, I've check the success box with regards to this aspect of the engine's design.
IGNITION: These runs were performed with stock ignition coils and ignitors, but BR10EIX plugs in all four positions. I'd point to a properly wired ignition system with the correct dwell times set in the Haltech as the reason for the ignition system's flawless performance.
Many thanks to DRC for his invaluable help as my cohort in all thing rotary and fiscally irresponsible (an oymoron I think!)
Last edited by Gen2n3; 12-31-20 at 06:15 PM.
05-29-05, 09:47 PM
#48
Nice
Carlos,
Nice write up and nice results!
What was your timing at peak HP? Thinking you have about ~20 more HP there if at 19psi? What was your boost level? Earlier post suggests 19.2 psi?
Also, you getting any crankcase ventilation issues? How are you vented?
Btw, the whistle from the bleed slot really gets addicting after awhile!
Tony
Nice write up and nice results!
What was your timing at peak HP? Thinking you have about ~20 more HP there if at 19psi? What was your boost level? Earlier post suggests 19.2 psi?
Also, you getting any crankcase ventilation issues? How are you vented?
Btw, the whistle from the bleed slot really gets addicting after awhile!
Tony
Last edited by Asleep; 05-29-05 at 09:51 PM.
05-30-05, 08:45 AM
#49
Corn-to-Noise Converter
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Hey Tony,
The boost levels for the individual runs are listed next to the legend on the dyno sheet. They were 16.5, 18.5 and 20.5. Though the boost controller and guage indicate steady boost, the Haltech logged a boost variance of of approximately -1.5 to +1.0 psi. Not sure if it's a sensor, or manifold signal source location problem, but I'm looking into it. ANy suggestions/insight is welcomed.
My timing was 15, 14 and 13 respectively. Split drops to 5 at 15 psi and then ramps back up to 15 at 20psi.
I have had no crankcase ventilation problems. I run a -10 hose off of the the stock oil fill pipe. I removed the plastic clip with the two barbs that the stock hoses connect to, tapped the filler pipe for a 3/8NPT to -10 90degree fitting and then ran the Earls SS hose to my "keeping-a-sense-of-humor" Guinness catchcan.
BTW, I was going over my datalogs last night and found that the intake temps had actually only increased by 48F. This decreases my theoretical future power output potential by about 2%.
I also forgot to mention that with 550/1650cc injector setup at 40lbs of base fuel, I ran a max duty cycle of 82% with the average between 5500 and 7500 at 74%.
Can you tell I like to datalog!!
The boost levels for the individual runs are listed next to the legend on the dyno sheet. They were 16.5, 18.5 and 20.5. Though the boost controller and guage indicate steady boost, the Haltech logged a boost variance of of approximately -1.5 to +1.0 psi. Not sure if it's a sensor, or manifold signal source location problem, but I'm looking into it. ANy suggestions/insight is welcomed.
My timing was 15, 14 and 13 respectively. Split drops to 5 at 15 psi and then ramps back up to 15 at 20psi.
I have had no crankcase ventilation problems. I run a -10 hose off of the the stock oil fill pipe. I removed the plastic clip with the two barbs that the stock hoses connect to, tapped the filler pipe for a 3/8NPT to -10 90degree fitting and then ran the Earls SS hose to my "keeping-a-sense-of-humor" Guinness catchcan.
BTW, I was going over my datalogs last night and found that the intake temps had actually only increased by 48F. This decreases my theoretical future power output potential by about 2%.
I also forgot to mention that with 550/1650cc injector setup at 40lbs of base fuel, I ran a max duty cycle of 82% with the average between 5500 and 7500 at 74%.
Can you tell I like to datalog!!
05-30-05, 09:31 AM
#50
Carlos,
I missed the boost levels. My eyes are bad! Where are taking vacuum from?
In a run from 40-140mph I see a 20C increase in intake temps...starting at 22C going to 42C. Running the Apex'i FMIC, soon to be Greddy 3-row. I think the GT40r does a good job of compressing the air!
With my 860-1680cc setup I see 84% duty up top (at 11.2 AFR...38psi base fuel pressure), with a an average about like yours from the 4 datalogs I looked at.
Amen to logging, I have a new Innovate LM-1 and Aux box setup that will allow logging of FP, EGT, and IAT. Got to have data when you go testing!
Sent a pm, too.
Tony
I missed the boost levels. My eyes are bad! Where are taking vacuum from?
In a run from 40-140mph I see a 20C increase in intake temps...starting at 22C going to 42C. Running the Apex'i FMIC, soon to be Greddy 3-row. I think the GT40r does a good job of compressing the air!
With my 860-1680cc setup I see 84% duty up top (at 11.2 AFR...38psi base fuel pressure), with a an average about like yours from the 4 datalogs I looked at.
Amen to logging, I have a new Innovate LM-1 and Aux box setup that will allow logging of FP, EGT, and IAT. Got to have data when you go testing!
Sent a pm, too.
Tony