Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
11-15-08, 12:25 AM
#2527
Sorry to hear about your bad luck, David. Don't give up hope, though. According to an article in SportsCar magazine, the black 3-rotor FD campaigned by McClure/Strelnieks was built in about a year and has been competitive at SCCA Autocross competitions. I've seen the car in person and it is very fast and looks like it would be a great street car if the suspension and aero mods were tamed down a bit.
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fds-cover-scca-sportscar-mag-749149/
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/fds-cover-scca-sportscar-mag-749149/
11-15-08, 12:22 PM
#2530
Hang in there David. I don't know you but i have followed this build from day one. You have choosen only the best parts and you have not cut any corners in this build..................everything has been top quality, unfortunately you have had some bad luck
.....good luck!!!!
11-15-08, 12:45 PM
#2531
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There was nothing insulting in my post, your attempt at moderation was not required, you really think he got a fair shake along the way?, Please.
The fact is there aren't that many committed people willing to spend the time and money on projects like this anymore, and when there is they seem to get let down pretty hard.
I was just amazed at the guys patience , DH is the kinda of customer a shop should dream of getting. The fact that his car isn't being parted speaks volumes of his love of the 7.
The fact is there aren't that many committed people willing to spend the time and money on projects like this anymore, and when there is they seem to get let down pretty hard.
I was just amazed at the guys patience , DH is the kinda of customer a shop should dream of getting. The fact that his car isn't being parted speaks volumes of his love of the 7.
11-15-08, 01:13 PM
#2532
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from what I've seen on this thread, it's more just a string of incredibly bad luck/murphy's law type stuff...most of the guys he has dealt with represent reputable shops
11-15-08, 03:02 PM
#2533
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David can have any sports car available in the free world, however, he is committed to the RX7 FD because of its unique engine and platform that's unmatched by any other car manufacturer.
Where can you find an engine manufacturer that has achieved the HP to weigh ratio of the RX7 FD ? No other car manufacturer that I'm aware of. I do agree that the 13B is capable of high HP; however, the sound and performance of the 20B is unparalleled.
As a result David is the type of person that has set a high goal for his FD and he will not be distracted by failure until his goal is achieved. It is my belief that his goal is within reach once all these small mechanical irritants are removed from the equation.
David I wish you the best of luck with a successful final stage of your build!
Where can you find an engine manufacturer that has achieved the HP to weigh ratio of the RX7 FD ? No other car manufacturer that I'm aware of. I do agree that the 13B is capable of high HP; however, the sound and performance of the 20B is unparalleled.
As a result David is the type of person that has set a high goal for his FD and he will not be distracted by failure until his goal is achieved. It is my belief that his goal is within reach once all these small mechanical irritants are removed from the equation.
David I wish you the best of luck with a successful final stage of your build!
Last edited by 93RX7-europa; 11-15-08 at 03:05 PM.
11-15-08, 06:44 PM
#2536
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I'm sorry but if you're spending over 4 years and 4 different shops to achieve the power and reliability he's looking for... He sure didn't pick wisely financially. This is purely about the love of the rotary engine. Nothing more.
11-15-08, 07:00 PM
#2537
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David may wish to speak with Rotorsports Racing here in Charlotte, he built a three rotor monster about three years ago, crashed it (and almost killed himself in the process) and has now built another one
now that's dedication to the three rotor concept!
now that's dedication to the three rotor concept!
11-16-08, 09:42 AM
#2538
Never understood why this was the be all and end all of why you should do something?
I'm sorry but if you're spending over 4 years and 4 different shops to achieve the power and reliability he's looking for... He sure didn't pick wisely financially. This is purely about the love of the rotary engine. Nothing more.
I'm sorry but if you're spending over 4 years and 4 different shops to achieve the power and reliability he's looking for... He sure didn't pick wisely financially. This is purely about the love of the rotary engine. Nothing more.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with rotary engines or choice thereof. The problem itself is 4 different shops in 4 years. If you can't centralize management of a project, then you can't centralize accountability, and problems tend to grow not shrink.
Hopefully it's going to be finished someplace that is stable and can handle everything. Good luck David!
Last edited by ptrhahn; 11-16-08 at 09:44 AM.
11-16-08, 10:44 AM
#2540
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Loading up the car for the trip to Orlando:
While I waited on George to come back from Detroit, I had Jotech install LED lighting in my bumper and inside the car. Here is a shot of the LED lights in the 99 Spec lights.
Before:
After:
Note in the first pic the yellowness of the bulb and in the second, the whie brightness of the LED. Really looks good at night.
While I waited on George to come back from Detroit, I had Jotech install LED lighting in my bumper and inside the car. Here is a shot of the LED lights in the 99 Spec lights.
Before:
After:
Note in the first pic the yellowness of the bulb and in the second, the whie brightness of the LED. Really looks good at night.
sorry to hear about the engine. Could you find out what LEDs they used in the combo lights?
Did they also change the fogs out? Thanks
11-16-08, 12:19 PM
#2541
You cold easily call Jotech and ask them which ones they used in the car. Ask for Tony or Armando and they'll find out for you. They sell the bulbs so they could ship them to you. Their number is: (972)278-9744. They also sell the LED strips they installed on the bottom of my doors as well as in the foot wells. I wish the pics looked better because they are fantastic.
11-16-08, 12:48 PM
#2542
A couple of comments.
In 1998 I drove Ed Taylor's PFS 3 rotor with the original stock-mounted motor and bump steer. Then, I drove the PFS-built Phil Hamlin black car that's on the cover of the Mazda Performance handbook (along with my old red single turbo). I knew then that I would build a 3 rotor someday.
Like Ihor said, a 2 rotor will always sound like a weed-whacker. A 3 rotor sounds so different that you cannot compare them in any way. The sound is incredibly complex compared to the incredibly simple buzzing sound of a 3 rotor. I'm not trying to insult everyone with 2 rotors, but its the truth. A 3 rotor sounds like a cross between a Porsche flat 6 and a Ferrari V12. I know. I own a Porsche and used to own a Ferrari.
David wanted a reliable car that was unique, sounded great, had torque, and made a lot of power. He didn't know as much about rotaries as some and so he went to a reputable shop, Pettit, and bought a "Banzai" 3 rotor and that should have met his needs. The problem is that, while an early innovator, Cam's shop had gone downhill in terms of quality. So, he took it elsewhere to make it right.
The problem is that there really are not many rotary shops that are very professional. There were not many in the heyday of the car and there are almost none today. There will be even fewer in the next few years. I expect most of them to be out of business. Because the Rx7 hasn't been made in so many years and became so cheap, the people who own them typically don't have much money to spend and are always trying to get a lot for a little. Many don't or can't pay their bills on time or at all.
There are a few good shops that I know of and they are full up. Try getting Mandeville to build a motor. The problem is in finding a good shop. You almost need to ask to see their financials before giving them a job. If David had been modifying a Lexus 350, he wouldn't have had the same problems. Or a vette or BMW. Its working on a car that isn't made any more and having to use shops that are not making a lot of money from people who have money to spend.
I think David knows this and will solve the problem and have a very special car. As Ihor said, Chris Carlisi had similar goals, but was more hands on and probably has one of the last retail Mandeville motors there will ever be. Plus, Chris was far more hands on than David. Chris' car may be one of the best out there. It has none of the issues that David's has, even though Chris really managed the process himself. He had some very good help from Mandeville, Ihor, Rich and others, but he really chose and did a lot of it himself.
David's Odyssey is unfortunately a study in what can go wrong with something as complex as this kind of a build. However, in the end he will have a car that is one of a kind and one of only a very few "ideal" 3 rotor turbocharged Rx7's in America. He'll have an extremely "upgraded" Pettit Banzai. The Banzai heritage will make his car more salable in the future and the upgrades will make it very very special.
Gordon
Gordon
In 1998 I drove Ed Taylor's PFS 3 rotor with the original stock-mounted motor and bump steer. Then, I drove the PFS-built Phil Hamlin black car that's on the cover of the Mazda Performance handbook (along with my old red single turbo). I knew then that I would build a 3 rotor someday.
Like Ihor said, a 2 rotor will always sound like a weed-whacker. A 3 rotor sounds so different that you cannot compare them in any way. The sound is incredibly complex compared to the incredibly simple buzzing sound of a 3 rotor. I'm not trying to insult everyone with 2 rotors, but its the truth. A 3 rotor sounds like a cross between a Porsche flat 6 and a Ferrari V12. I know. I own a Porsche and used to own a Ferrari.
David wanted a reliable car that was unique, sounded great, had torque, and made a lot of power. He didn't know as much about rotaries as some and so he went to a reputable shop, Pettit, and bought a "Banzai" 3 rotor and that should have met his needs. The problem is that, while an early innovator, Cam's shop had gone downhill in terms of quality. So, he took it elsewhere to make it right.
The problem is that there really are not many rotary shops that are very professional. There were not many in the heyday of the car and there are almost none today. There will be even fewer in the next few years. I expect most of them to be out of business. Because the Rx7 hasn't been made in so many years and became so cheap, the people who own them typically don't have much money to spend and are always trying to get a lot for a little. Many don't or can't pay their bills on time or at all.
There are a few good shops that I know of and they are full up. Try getting Mandeville to build a motor. The problem is in finding a good shop. You almost need to ask to see their financials before giving them a job. If David had been modifying a Lexus 350, he wouldn't have had the same problems. Or a vette or BMW. Its working on a car that isn't made any more and having to use shops that are not making a lot of money from people who have money to spend.
I think David knows this and will solve the problem and have a very special car. As Ihor said, Chris Carlisi had similar goals, but was more hands on and probably has one of the last retail Mandeville motors there will ever be. Plus, Chris was far more hands on than David. Chris' car may be one of the best out there. It has none of the issues that David's has, even though Chris really managed the process himself. He had some very good help from Mandeville, Ihor, Rich and others, but he really chose and did a lot of it himself.
David's Odyssey is unfortunately a study in what can go wrong with something as complex as this kind of a build. However, in the end he will have a car that is one of a kind and one of only a very few "ideal" 3 rotor turbocharged Rx7's in America. He'll have an extremely "upgraded" Pettit Banzai. The Banzai heritage will make his car more salable in the future and the upgrades will make it very very special.
Gordon
Gordon
Gordon is right, my mechanical knowledge of rotaries was not great when I started the project many years ago. I have, however, learned much since then, out of necessity. I paid the price for this in poor results, wasted time, and much money.
Because of my lack of knowledge, I went to what I thought was the best rotary shop in the SE, Pettit Racing, for the "Banzai" 3 rotor conversion. This was supposed to be turn-key affair. Seemed simple enough but it didn't work out that way. The car was okay, performed fine, but just didn't deliver on the promise of 500+ HP and certainly didn't kick you back in your seat like the 3 rotor Cam took me for a test drive in before I decided to move forward. Why? Read the thread and you'll know my 3 rotor engine build wasn't exactly as advertised. Gotham discovered the engine was failing. Cam did the right thing though and sent all new parts for the Gotham rebuild. This took a bit of the sting out of the original build. Was there any way to predict this or know it would happen? I don't think so, regardless of level of expertise. When you are told you are getting something and the engine is designed and fabricated a certain way and it is not, how do you know until you pull it apart to inspect? I can tell you based on this I will be at Kilo Racing to oversee the new rebuild.
So I sent the car to Gotham Racing, another shop well-known to the rotary community. Many promises were made to me and I flew out to Gotham numerous times to "pick up the car". Unfortunately this never resulted in a finished car. What I ended up with is a car that was close to being done, but one that was not well-sorted out. And it was these issues that ultimately caused the car to fail on the dyno a few weeks ago. I know Alex always felt I was rushing them and trying to get them to finish the car too soon, but I would very much disagree with this. 2 years is certainly enough time to have finalized the project.
I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of my project at Gotham, but to date, only one of the owners, Steve Kan, has stepped up to make it right and I appreciate that. I could go on and on about my observations of the shop and its customer processes, but as they are now out of business, what's the point? I can say I did share these numerous times with the Gotham guys so hopefully they'll learn from their mistakes.
So know I am trying to be much more hands on with the project in an attempt to get it right this final time. I'll be intimately involved in the move-forward strategy and in overseeing the progress. I hope this will lead to better results for me.
Regarding this, even though Chris Carlisi did much of his work and was more hands on, he too had the same results. He spent much time and money having to redo numerous things on his car. Why? What was promised to him wasn't delivered. Seems to be indicative of today's environment for rotary shops. I don't know why this is. I've got to say my best customer experience to date was with the Jotech guys and they're not rotary guys. Compared to them, all the rotary shops I have seen (including a few that I have visited but haven't worked on my car) are lacking when it comes to delivering on customer expectations.
I've thought about inviting other rotary shops to participate in the "saving" of my car, thinking there has to be a better shop out there that can deliver but I don't know. Hopefully I am at a good place now at the car will get done correctly.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program!
11-16-08, 01:32 PM
#2543
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path forward...
11-16-08, 02:54 PM
#2544
^See Gordon's post. Jesus raced against the Jotech guys and they became friends. They like him for his consistency and for his results. They also said he's very soft-spoken and good at what he does. I like our initial conversations so we'll see.
If I lived in Miami, I would be at either Chris Hill's or Carlos Lopez's place. It's about 5.5 hours from me so I've opted for a little more control due to the closer (2 hrs.) location.
Beside, I like the thought of Jesus raising the car from the dead, so to speak. Sure, he pronounces it HAYSUS as in Spanish but it's still fun
If I lived in Miami, I would be at either Chris Hill's or Carlos Lopez's place. It's about 5.5 hours from me so I've opted for a little more control due to the closer (2 hrs.) location.
Beside, I like the thought of Jesus raising the car from the dead, so to speak. Sure, he pronounces it HAYSUS as in Spanish but it's still fun
11-16-08, 04:07 PM
#2546
Rotary Enthusiast
It seems to me like owning a working 3 rotor FD really is a labour of love. A continous project thats never finished due to constant issues. Something an enthusiast works on constantly fixing problems to keep his baby sorted.
Im not sure if the turn-key result is a little optimistic (although i 100% do think that you SHOULD have got a turn-key deal as thats what you paid for and expected) as its continous issues that will always pop up with such a car, and should be fixed by the enthusiast for the love of the car. If thats not the way it is with a 3 rotor i can see a car like this spending more time at a shop then with the owner. There are too many things to go wrong with a car like this that if its not delt with by the owner it will be the car shops ongoing "project"
I really do wish you the best of luck getting the car sorted. I dont mean to be rude, i dont know the extent of your mechanical knowledge but i think some kind of course (mechianical or whatever) to help you keep your baby running properly and not at the shop yourself would be a worthwhile idea.
Best of luck to you and I sincerly hope it works out for you this time. im sure you will, but keep us updated. Cheers
Im not sure if the turn-key result is a little optimistic (although i 100% do think that you SHOULD have got a turn-key deal as thats what you paid for and expected) as its continous issues that will always pop up with such a car, and should be fixed by the enthusiast for the love of the car. If thats not the way it is with a 3 rotor i can see a car like this spending more time at a shop then with the owner. There are too many things to go wrong with a car like this that if its not delt with by the owner it will be the car shops ongoing "project"
I really do wish you the best of luck getting the car sorted. I dont mean to be rude, i dont know the extent of your mechanical knowledge but i think some kind of course (mechianical or whatever) to help you keep your baby running properly and not at the shop yourself would be a worthwhile idea.
Best of luck to you and I sincerly hope it works out for you this time. im sure you will, but keep us updated. Cheers
11-17-08, 04:18 PM
#2548
Jesus Padilla is a well-known Rx7 drag racer with extensive experience with 2 and 3 rotor, maybe even 4 rotor, motors. Google him or check here on the forum. If everyone will excuse my political incorrectness, I would rather have someone of spanish ethnic decent working on my performance rotary than someone of my scandinavian background... The Spanish or Puerto Rican tuners I know are the best out there and do wonderful things with these motors. They are diligent and honest and you don't find them cruising on their cigarette boats and partying like Cam Worth and Peter Farrell. They don't rest on their laurels, they keep earning new ones...
Gordon
Gordon
Good luck in finally getting this sorted David.
11-17-08, 09:00 PM
#2550
^I agree.
I've been around car customizers for over 20 years now (for whatever that is worth). Sometimes you find a good shop or individual who can get it done. Other times, it just doesn't work out. I'm just glad that David is able to persevere through all this and continue with the project. This car is going to be awesome when its done.
I've been around car customizers for over 20 years now (for whatever that is worth). Sometimes you find a good shop or individual who can get it done. Other times, it just doesn't work out. I'm just glad that David is able to persevere through all this and continue with the project. This car is going to be awesome when its done.