Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
11-11-08, 02:02 AM
#2502
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I guess I will chin in on what happened. water injection failed during the last pull. the trigger (inj signal fuse) blewed and shut down the water injection without warning. I spent a few hrs readjusting the fuel and ignition map and detune it based on the previous tune made by george the night prior. everything was great. I had the a/f dial in nice and flat other than a slight leaner a/f than what I would like to see above 7.5K rpm. it made 630rwhp on that pull. I made the adjustment and added 2 percent more fuel from 7.5Krpm up and made the final pull on the dyno. everything looked great until it reaches close to 7K rpm, I saw the a/f went to 11.5:1, I immediately shut it off but it was too late. there was no way for me to react fast enough to save it. I later find the 12V inj fuse to the water inj kit blew so it shut off the water inj sys. keep in mind that I took out 3 degrees of timing and riched the A/F by half a point from the previous 650rwhp pull. also, the car was boost creeping to 22psi with the E cutout open so there were no safe guard if water inj failed. Either way, I have already made agreement on the engine repair with david personally since Gotham is officially closed down and David understands my position and accepted my offer.
11-11-08, 07:45 AM
#2504
No, but I'll take some when I see the car in a few weeks. The Acura battery is in the passenger bin. The Jotech guys fabbed up a way to hold the battery up higher than just sitting it in the bin. Prior to this, you had to remove all of the plastics and the passenger seat to remove the battery. Now you can lift it right out. It's a good solution.
11-11-08, 07:50 AM
#2506
I guess I will chin in on what happened. water injection failed during the last pull. the trigger (inj signal fuse) blewed and shut down the water injection without warning. I spent a few hrs readjusting the fuel and ignition map and detune it based on the previous tune made by george the night prior. everything was great. I had the a/f dial in nice and flat other than a slight leaner a/f than what I would like to see above 7.5K rpm. it made 630rwhp on that pull. I made the adjustment and added 2 percent more fuel from 7.5Krpm up and made the final pull on the dyno. everything looked great until it reaches close to 7K rpm, I saw the a/f went to 11.5:1, I immediately shut it off but it was too late. there was no way for me to react fast enough to save it. I later find the 12V inj fuse to the water inj kit blew so it shut off the water inj sys. keep in mind that I took out 3 degrees of timing and riched the A/F by half a point from the previous 650rwhp pull. also, the car was boost creeping to 22psi with the E cutout open so there were no safe guard if water inj failed. Either way, I have already made agreement on the engine repair with david personally since Gotham is officially closed down and David understands my position and accepted my offer.
I'll also say that I appreciate Steve's honesty and integrity in dealing with my situation. No, it hasn't been a good experience for me at Gotham but Steve has stepped up and is doing the right thing regarding repairs to the car and I really appreciate it. He's taken full responsibility for the situation and is making it right and that goes a long way in my book.
11-11-08, 01:44 PM
#2507
David's car looks even better in person then pics,
I hope i didn't jinx it that night,
Steve is a great guy & tuner, little to coservative tunning he cost me
few hp the other day by beeing safe
but better safe than sorry,
by the way Steve i wan't a rematch on ur dyno 1/4 mile,
I hope i didn't jinx it that night,
Steve is a great guy & tuner, little to coservative tunning he cost me
few hp the other day by beeing safe
but better safe than sorry,by the way Steve i wan't a rematch on ur dyno 1/4 mile,
Last edited by tony94s4; 11-11-08 at 01:46 PM.
11-11-08, 05:50 PM
#2509
Not a lot you can do in certain situations we biuld these cars for performance purposes and when you do that you are really playing russian roulette. I give you props on the build and I have been tuning in every now and then to keep up with the drama. I know Steve is a great guy and I unfortunatelly have had to witness a few motors go out. And out of the 25+ cars I have seen him tune its never been because of Steves error in reading the situation that a motor has gone. Unfortunatelly we cant control every part of our car at every second its running. We all know the risks when tuning and I have told Steve numerous times while tuning mine if it goes it goes its just time the way i look at it better on the dyno then driving on the freeway or away from the house. Good luck on the biuld it was for sure making good numbers just need to remember the more we add the more we need to pay attention to and the more likelly a situation like this will come about...
Chris
Chris
11-12-08, 10:50 AM
#2510
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That's real impressive of Steve. Gotham's taken a lot of heat recently, but I've always been real pleased with every interraction I've had with Steve and wish him luck with his new shop.
11-12-08, 11:45 AM
#2511
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Course I may get flamed for this. But since I work for an OEM, and am currently 'watching' an argument with some relevance to what I'm putting below, I'll open my big stupid mouth. 
If I'm going to spend serious coin on a vehicle (which I haven't done, I may have the cheapest FD on the forums) I think I'd shoot for more margin of safety than most. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to wring the last bit of hp out of the thing.
But what happens is you wind up 4 years down the road, and some serious coin and back to the drawing board. Hey, things happen. Not calling anyone any name or implying a thing. But dern, I'd like to see that thing on the road, and hear some KILL stories.
But with, I don't know, say 550 hp & the torque that 3 rotor is making, how many (true street) cars will you ever find that will pull that FD. A brand spanking new ZR1 is going to have its hands full against a 550hp FD.
This is sort of the mindset OEMs build engines to. Is ~625 hp that the new ZR1 Corvette can put out, is that all it can do? No friggin' way. But Generous Motors knows THINGS HAPPEN and build rather large safety margins in so they're not paying warranty out the a-hole.
I guess in summary I'd like to say, I get adrenalin flowing thinking about your FD on the road. Listening to the sweet sound of such an exotic engine. Thinking about how bad it will kill a Z06. And, mostly due to the uniqueness that probably no single other car on the road can touch. A 3 ROTOR ENGINE. AWESOME. I'm doing what I can do to preserve 2 rotors, while dreaming of a 3rd.
David - I wish I could help. All I can do is throw out my $0.02. Determine your most effective way to remedy the situation from here. Considering timing / confidence to get the job done correctly / and $ if that's an issue. Get'er done. Consider a tune that will allow the motor to survive if it has undetectable problems. Use the margin of safety to protect the life of the engine, then get out there and rack up the KILL stories and the stories where motor-heads are slobbering uncontrollably when you lift the hood!
Much respect to you, and props to Steve.
If I'm going to spend serious coin on a vehicle (which I haven't done, I may have the cheapest FD on the forums) I think I'd shoot for more margin of safety than most. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to wring the last bit of hp out of the thing.
But what happens is you wind up 4 years down the road, and some serious coin and back to the drawing board. Hey, things happen. Not calling anyone any name or implying a thing. But dern, I'd like to see that thing on the road, and hear some KILL stories.
But with, I don't know, say 550 hp & the torque that 3 rotor is making, how many (true street) cars will you ever find that will pull that FD. A brand spanking new ZR1 is going to have its hands full against a 550hp FD.
This is sort of the mindset OEMs build engines to. Is ~625 hp that the new ZR1 Corvette can put out, is that all it can do? No friggin' way. But Generous Motors knows THINGS HAPPEN and build rather large safety margins in so they're not paying warranty out the a-hole.
I guess in summary I'd like to say, I get adrenalin flowing thinking about your FD on the road. Listening to the sweet sound of such an exotic engine. Thinking about how bad it will kill a Z06. And, mostly due to the uniqueness that probably no single other car on the road can touch. A 3 ROTOR ENGINE. AWESOME. I'm doing what I can do to preserve 2 rotors, while dreaming of a 3rd.
David - I wish I could help. All I can do is throw out my $0.02. Determine your most effective way to remedy the situation from here. Considering timing / confidence to get the job done correctly / and $ if that's an issue. Get'er done. Consider a tune that will allow the motor to survive if it has undetectable problems. Use the margin of safety to protect the life of the engine, then get out there and rack up the KILL stories and the stories where motor-heads are slobbering uncontrollably when you lift the hood!
Much respect to you, and props to Steve.
11-12-08, 12:46 PM
#2512
Course I may get flamed for this. But since I work for an OEM, and am currently 'watching' an argument with some relevance to what I'm putting below, I'll open my big stupid mouth.
If I'm going to spend serious coin on a vehicle (which I haven't done, I may have the cheapest FD on the forums) I think I'd shoot for more margin of safety than most. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to wring the last bit of hp out of the thing.
But what happens is you wind up 4 years down the road, and some serious coin and back to the drawing board. Hey, things happen. Not calling anyone any name or implying a thing. But dern, I'd like to see that thing on the road, and hear some KILL stories.
But with, I don't know, say 550 hp & the torque that 3 rotor is making, how many (true street) cars will you ever find that will pull that FD. A brand spanking new ZR1 is going to have its hands full against a 550hp FD.
This is sort of the mindset OEMs build engines to. Is ~625 hp that the new ZR1 Corvette can put out, is that all it can do? No friggin' way. But Generous Motors knows THINGS HAPPEN and build rather large safety margins in so they're not paying warranty out the a-hole.
I guess in summary I'd like to say, I get adrenalin flowing thinking about your FD on the road. Listening to the sweet sound of such an exotic engine. Thinking about how bad it will kill a Z06. And, mostly due to the uniqueness that probably no single other car on the road can touch. A 3 ROTOR ENGINE. AWESOME. I'm doing what I can do to preserve 2 rotors, while dreaming of a 3rd.
David - I wish I could help. All I can do is throw out my $0.02. Determine your most effective way to remedy the situation from here. Considering timing / confidence to get the job done correctly / and $ if that's an issue. Get'er done. Consider a tune that will allow the motor to survive if it has undetectable problems. Use the margin of safety to protect the life of the engine, then get out there and rack up the KILL stories and the stories where motor-heads are slobbering uncontrollably when you lift the hood!
Much respect to you, and props to Steve.
If I'm going to spend serious coin on a vehicle (which I haven't done, I may have the cheapest FD on the forums) I think I'd shoot for more margin of safety than most. Not that there's anything wrong with trying to wring the last bit of hp out of the thing.
But what happens is you wind up 4 years down the road, and some serious coin and back to the drawing board. Hey, things happen. Not calling anyone any name or implying a thing. But dern, I'd like to see that thing on the road, and hear some KILL stories.
But with, I don't know, say 550 hp & the torque that 3 rotor is making, how many (true street) cars will you ever find that will pull that FD. A brand spanking new ZR1 is going to have its hands full against a 550hp FD.
This is sort of the mindset OEMs build engines to. Is ~625 hp that the new ZR1 Corvette can put out, is that all it can do? No friggin' way. But Generous Motors knows THINGS HAPPEN and build rather large safety margins in so they're not paying warranty out the a-hole.
I guess in summary I'd like to say, I get adrenalin flowing thinking about your FD on the road. Listening to the sweet sound of such an exotic engine. Thinking about how bad it will kill a Z06. And, mostly due to the uniqueness that probably no single other car on the road can touch. A 3 ROTOR ENGINE. AWESOME. I'm doing what I can do to preserve 2 rotors, while dreaming of a 3rd.
David - I wish I could help. All I can do is throw out my $0.02. Determine your most effective way to remedy the situation from here. Considering timing / confidence to get the job done correctly / and $ if that's an issue. Get'er done. Consider a tune that will allow the motor to survive if it has undetectable problems. Use the margin of safety to protect the life of the engine, then get out there and rack up the KILL stories and the stories where motor-heads are slobbering uncontrollably when you lift the hood!
Much respect to you, and props to Steve.
Regarding HP and safety margin, the purpose of the build was supposed to be this, not maximum HP. I said many times I would be very happy with anything above the 500 WHP mark as I agree the car would be tough to beat at this level with the amount of torque it puts out. Safety was the original intent of the water injection system but somewhere along the line this got lost and the results were devastating. I think someday Steve will post up more about the goings on at Gotham and the significant issues with which he's had to deal. He'll persevere and will do well in the long run.
As I step back now and assess what needs to be done to complete the project, my primary focus is getting it done right and on the road. That means first ensuring the rebuild is done right. We'll have to see what damage was caused by the NRS ceramic seals - hopefully it will be contained to the center housing. At the very least, we're thinking a new 13B rotor housing and most likely a new rotor. As the rotating assembly was balanced, we'll have to ensure the new assembly is also. Let's hope the irons are okay as I would hate to think of the cost of a new center iron. As the front and rear compression is fine, hopefully we'll be good to go with what we have there outside of the normal rebuild kit for pulling an engine apart.
The turbo will need to be inspected to see if it got damaged along the way. Would stink if it did as it is brand new.
I need to inspect how the wastegate is currently plumbed into the system as the car has uncontrollable boost creep. This needs to be fixed. The wastegate is also a 46mm unit but it probably needs to be at least 60mm.
From day one my Pettit 3 rotor intercooler has been too small so I might as well correct this while I have the car apart. Probably a nice Greddy 3 row?
I have several electrical issues that need to be identified and corrected. The water injection system which I would like to keep as a safety margin failed and it blew a fuse. I also blew a Haltech injector fuse so obviously something funky is going on with the electrical side of the equation. In addition, I would like to see if I can simplify my setup to get rid of the Jacobs Accuvolt unit and the additional capacitor that is on the system. Way too many electrical pieces.
Finally, my goal is to end up with a system that lets me select a low and a high level of boost through the boost controller. As it stands now, the ecutout on the car renders the boost controller useless and this has to be fixed or I need to jack the ecutout unit.
Once I hear from Jesus Padilla (should be the end of next week) I'll drive down to Orlando to inspect the situation and to come up with the plan. We'll then call Steve to discuss and get moving forward on completing the project.
Last edited by David Hayes; 11-12-08 at 12:57 PM.
11-12-08, 02:56 PM
#2513
All right guys, settle down. Let's get back to the point of the thread, my car. Regarding who gets the "credit" for building my car, no one I think would want that credit as it currently is a failed build. I do know the only guy that has stepped up and accepted responsibility and accountability (not credit) for the build is Steve and I appreciate his integrity when it comes to making it right.
Regarding the blown fuses, these were noted before the dyno pulls and were thought to have been resolved. Unfortunately this wasn't the case.
Regarding the blown fuses, these were noted before the dyno pulls and were thought to have been resolved. Unfortunately this wasn't the case.
11-13-08, 08:44 AM
#2515
Original Gangster/Rotary!
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Until a thread is started for the express purpose of talking about the Gotham situation, let's not **** all over David's thread guys. Not too many people really know what went on, so the speculators and armchair quarterbacks can settle down. Take it to PMs please.
11-13-08, 06:05 PM
#2516
Rotary Enthusiast
11-13-08, 11:04 PM
#2518
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
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unbelievable....lesson learned here imo is stick with moderate boost, like 17 psi, that is still 500+ hp with gobs of torque and plenty for the street
11-14-08, 08:00 AM
#2520
Sadly, the only time I've really had to drive the car outside of the break in period of a few months ago was abut 1.5 years ago in Atlanta. Steve Kan had driven the car to Atlanta where I was supposed to pick it up. Got to drive it for a little bit out on 75. The car was set to low boost (10 PSI) and made about 470 WHP or so. Even at that level you couldn't keep traction to the tires in 1-3rd gear. Will be crazy fun once it's done. Couldn't take the car home because it developed an electrical issue.
Curiously, I am not alone when it comes to stuff like this with a 3 rotor build. I've now heard from a hand full of forum members that have had very similar experiences. In fact, it seems like the easy, simple 3 rotor conversion is not the norm, but the anomaly. Chris Carlisi had the same issues with his build and his project took about the same amount of time. We would both talk about the numbers of times we had to pay to have something redone, from engines, to wiring, to fabrication.
I am going to put my thoughts together and in writing for you guys regarding the "do's and don'ts" of the conversion. Should be an interesting read and it might help the next guy be better prepared and achieve better results.
11-14-08, 09:42 AM
#2521
David, both you and Chris Carlisi seem to think alike when it came to building the car. Both of you wanted to take the performance advantages already inherent in the rx-7 chassis, and step it up about 100 notches. Yet neither of you would settle for a compromise. There are quite a few people with 3 rotor cars, but most of these cars are not really streetable or tolerable for every day driving. Both of you seem to have wanted a 600+ hp car, yet have the reliability, creature comforts, etc of a daily driver. This is the same way I would have built the car. This is why there are so many other 3 rotor cars that are basically slapped together. They may run, but can you really drive them to work daily? I helped Chris with countless problems that he encountered along the way. I'm sure you had similar experiences with your project. It is something that takes a great deal of patience and the right people to do it. I had the pleasure of driving Chris's car when the engine and tuning was only about 50%, and it was a very rewarding experience. The sound alone was worth it. I don't car what anyone says, a 2 rotor will always sound like a weedwacker in my opinion and have no low end torque. Its a shame he wasn't able to finish the car. I hope your project has a happier ending.
Last edited by IRPerformance; 11-14-08 at 10:03 AM.
11-14-08, 09:49 AM
#2522
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Yes, that's a good lesson. It was what I thought I was getting but didn't turn out that way because of the boost creep issue. My guess is the issue exists because of the way the wastegate is rerouted into the exhaust system. I'll bet money that is where the restriction is and thus, the boost creep.
Sadly, the only time I've really had to drive the car outside of the break in period of a few months ago was abut 1.5 years ago in Atlanta. Steve Kan had driven the car to Atlanta where I was supposed to pick it up. Got to drive it for a little bit out on 75. The car was set to low boost (10 PSI) and made about 470 WHP or so. Even at that level you couldn't keep traction to the tires in 1-3rd gear. Will be crazy fun once it's done. Couldn't take the car home because it developed an electrical issue.
Curiously, I am not alone when it comes to stuff like this with a 3 rotor build. I've now heard from a hand full of forum members that have had very similar experiences. In fact, it seems like the easy, simple 3 rotor conversion is not the norm, but the anomaly. Chris Carlisi had the same issues with his build and his project took about the same amount of time. We would both talk about the numbers of times we had to pay to have something redone, from engines, to wiring, to fabrication.
I am going to put my thoughts together and in writing for you guys regarding the "do's and don'ts" of the conversion. Should be an interesting read and it might help the next guy be better prepared and achieve better results.
Sadly, the only time I've really had to drive the car outside of the break in period of a few months ago was abut 1.5 years ago in Atlanta. Steve Kan had driven the car to Atlanta where I was supposed to pick it up. Got to drive it for a little bit out on 75. The car was set to low boost (10 PSI) and made about 470 WHP or so. Even at that level you couldn't keep traction to the tires in 1-3rd gear. Will be crazy fun once it's done. Couldn't take the car home because it developed an electrical issue.
Curiously, I am not alone when it comes to stuff like this with a 3 rotor build. I've now heard from a hand full of forum members that have had very similar experiences. In fact, it seems like the easy, simple 3 rotor conversion is not the norm, but the anomaly. Chris Carlisi had the same issues with his build and his project took about the same amount of time. We would both talk about the numbers of times we had to pay to have something redone, from engines, to wiring, to fabrication.
I am going to put my thoughts together and in writing for you guys regarding the "do's and don'ts" of the conversion. Should be an interesting read and it might help the next guy be better prepared and achieve better results.
11-14-08, 09:59 AM
#2523
Hey David, I'd love to read the "Do's and Don'ts" of the conversion, as I'm considering more HP for my FD. Should I stick with 2 rotors or go with 3? However, after following this thread for a long time not sure if 3 is a viable option with all the inherent issues. I welcome all your thoughts and writings on the subject.
I would love to have a 3 rotor car myself, however, you can make more than enough power on a 2 rotor for a whole lot less money and headache. Although, when David started this swap there wasnt as many guys putting out big numbers from the 2 rotors. It wasnt until just a couple years ago that 600+rwhp 2 rotors were roaming the streets.
David's car is still one of my favorite looking fds of all time, just hate to see all he has gone thru at this point.
11-14-08, 04:44 PM
#2524
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Wow, read the whole thread.
After all that, the price of a shipping container and 2 months of in transit time to take the car to a capable shop in Japan looks like a bargain.
After all that, the price of a shipping container and 2 months of in transit time to take the car to a capable shop in Japan looks like a bargain.
Last edited by GoodfellaFD3S; 11-15-08 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Insults not necessary.
11-14-08, 09:05 PM
#2525
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I had the pleasure of driving Chris's car when the engine and tuning was only about 50%, and it was a very rewarding experience. The sound alone was worth it. I don't care what anyone says, a 2 rotor will always sound like a weedwacker in my opinion and have no low end torque.
