Kilo Racing 3 Rotor FD Conversion
02-20-07, 08:18 PM
#1276
Rotary Enthusiast
I remember that add ....david , i feel for you wasting all that money ....if i wanted 400whp i would have stayed with my 2-rotor , like you stated the torque is realy great but , its not always about torque , at least not for everybody
02-20-07, 11:16 PM
#1277
Administrative Me
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Kansas
Posts: 1,370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by David Hayes
My ultimate solution was to take out the twins and go the single turbo route. You see where that go me - two years of misery and lots of dollars
Hopefully it's about to be worth it.
Hopefully it's about to be worth it.Hope things are going well. I hate to rub it in, but.....
Anyhow, good luck on finishing the project.
Mike
Hope all's well...
02-21-07, 02:46 AM
#1280
Originally Posted by felix_is_alive
I remember that add ....david , i feel for you wasting all that money ....if i wanted 400whp i would have stayed with my 2-rotor , like you stated the torque is realy great but , its not always about torque , at least not for everybody
02-21-07, 06:22 AM
#1281
Full Member
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Santiago, Dominican Republic
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Then you don't read too well 
There's PLENTY of info to show that 550 hp is not only unrealistic, but that it's never been attained. This includes (but is not limited to) theoretical maximum power levels of the twin turbos, and actual world experience (as David Hayes has mentioned already).
You're incorrect. Pettit has - for YEARS - advertised 550hp. Just b/c it's no longer on the website doesn't mean it didn't happen
In fact, allow me to show ya what used to be pasted on their website for YEARS...
"Pettit Racing in Fort Lauderdale, FL, has created the Banzai RX-7. Dispatching the quarter mile in a scant 11.4 seconds at over 126 mph, a driver is just at the first half of the Banzai's performance envelope: top speed is estimated at 240 mph. The brainchild behind the flawless conversion is veteran racer, Cameron Worth. Worth has a long record of racing rotary cars that dates back to the seventies, so it seems fitting that he transfer that knowledge to create a street-legal "Road Warrior" - as he calls it - capable of blowing the doors off supercars costing nearly twice as much. He does it with a turbocharged, 3-rotor conversion.
Under the hood, it seems less cluttered than its two-rotor counterpart. Fitting nicely, everything looks as if it is the way the engineers in Japan had originally intended it. Perhaps what is so impressive about the car is its civility. It can be idled around town, yet it can be rocketed down the on-ramp with a ferocity that words simply cannot explain; it must be felt to be believed.
Everything about the conversion is state-of-the-art. The craftsmanship, down to the self-locking nuts and liberally appointed hiem-joints, is testimony to its racing heritage. Its character is reminiscent of the finely tuned Alpinas, Hartages, and other high-performance gray-market cars that made it in the window of opportunity left open by sleeping legislators. But the spec box only tells half the story.
The other half comes from the Banzai experience that Worth is gladly willing to share with serious buyers who fly into Fort Lauderdale International Airport. For those power junkies who never seem to be able to get enough power, brakes, or handling, Pettit Racing's ride back to the shop will be burned into memory forever. Try it; it's a ride well worth the plane ticket.
3 Rotors
2 Sequential Turbochargers
2.0 Liters
550 HP @ 7500 RPM
460 Lb-Ft @ 5500 RPM
to propel
2735 Pounds of Canyon-Carving, Freeway-Dissecting, Corner-Chomping, Pop-Your-Eyeballs-Out-Braking, Two-Seat-Heaven RX-7
The Banzai Edition RX-7 utilizes a 20B three rotor twin turbocharged engine which produces 550 Hp, propelling the Banzai to light speed in a flash. The Banzai is fitted with a huge custom built front mount intercooler, hi flow radiator, and retro fit air conditioning condenser to handle the extra cooling needs. A special computer-designed sub frame fits the 20B power plant perfectly into the RX-7 engine bay and allows easy access to all components for service. A custom Digital Management System provides unsurpassed drive ability and unbelievable performance without all of the spaghetti wiring of the factory system. A TKT Stainless Steel Exhaust System gives it the perfect note. Special Trak-Pro suspension and brake systems handle the extra performance with ease. Power is transferred to the ground via Bridgestone Potenza S-02 225/40ZR18 front and 285/35ZR18 rear tires mounted on beautiful 18" x 8.5" front and 18" x 10" rear Forgeline LS web design wheels.
Pettit Racing's products have established a firm foothold in the RX-7 performance and accessory market for the average RX-7 owner as well as the true enthusiast. In order to maintain our position as an industry leader, Pettit Racing actively competes in professional road and drag racing. Since 1980, Pettit Racing has won 5 road racing championships, set several track records, and competed in countless drag races. Our quickest quarter mile has been 10.855 seconds. In the 1996 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona, our car competed in the world class event on DOT street tires, finishing a respectable 11th place in the S2 class and more recently took 3rd place in the S2 class at the Sebring sports car race in October 1997. Pettit's 3rd gen RX-7 finished in 5th place in the S2 class at the 1998 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona For more information, or to place an order, please call (954) 563-6064."
Now, having said that, I don't want anyone misinterpreting my post. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Pettit. In fact, I met Cam a few years back, and he was very kind, very down to earth, and an all around nice guy. Plus he said he loved my FD
So yea...this isn't a negative post; rather just a critical comment about Pettit's claims for the Banzai.
Porting only shifts max power higher up in the powerband; it won't help the turbos make more power than they are actually capable of. In this case (the Banzai), the turbos reach maximum efficiency (according to you) at 6,700 rpm. So porting will simply help the turbos reach maximum efficiency faster (ie lower in the powerband), but won't yield more power out of them, since they're maxed out as it is. Keep in mind of the turbines is actually SMALLER than the FD's twins, and the other is the same size. So it's inevitable that the 20B twins will make LESS power than the stock FD twins. Couple this w/ the fact that the Stage III BNRs have made a maximum of 425rwhp (and in this case the engine was NOT the limiting factor; rather, it was poorly designed - aka not high flowing - runners of the twins, and a restrictive exhaust manifold) that limit the twins from making more power. So 500hp on the 20B twins is a LOOOONG shot. mirabile, that convincing enough for ya?
~Ramy
There's PLENTY of info to show that 550 hp is not only unrealistic, but that it's never been attained. This includes (but is not limited to) theoretical maximum power levels of the twin turbos, and actual world experience (as David Hayes has mentioned already).You're incorrect. Pettit has - for YEARS - advertised 550hp. Just b/c it's no longer on the website doesn't mean it didn't happen
In fact, allow me to show ya what used to be pasted on their website for YEARS..."Pettit Racing in Fort Lauderdale, FL, has created the Banzai RX-7. Dispatching the quarter mile in a scant 11.4 seconds at over 126 mph, a driver is just at the first half of the Banzai's performance envelope: top speed is estimated at 240 mph. The brainchild behind the flawless conversion is veteran racer, Cameron Worth. Worth has a long record of racing rotary cars that dates back to the seventies, so it seems fitting that he transfer that knowledge to create a street-legal "Road Warrior" - as he calls it - capable of blowing the doors off supercars costing nearly twice as much. He does it with a turbocharged, 3-rotor conversion.
Under the hood, it seems less cluttered than its two-rotor counterpart. Fitting nicely, everything looks as if it is the way the engineers in Japan had originally intended it. Perhaps what is so impressive about the car is its civility. It can be idled around town, yet it can be rocketed down the on-ramp with a ferocity that words simply cannot explain; it must be felt to be believed.
Everything about the conversion is state-of-the-art. The craftsmanship, down to the self-locking nuts and liberally appointed hiem-joints, is testimony to its racing heritage. Its character is reminiscent of the finely tuned Alpinas, Hartages, and other high-performance gray-market cars that made it in the window of opportunity left open by sleeping legislators. But the spec box only tells half the story.
The other half comes from the Banzai experience that Worth is gladly willing to share with serious buyers who fly into Fort Lauderdale International Airport. For those power junkies who never seem to be able to get enough power, brakes, or handling, Pettit Racing's ride back to the shop will be burned into memory forever. Try it; it's a ride well worth the plane ticket.
3 Rotors
2 Sequential Turbochargers
2.0 Liters
550 HP @ 7500 RPM
460 Lb-Ft @ 5500 RPM
to propel
2735 Pounds of Canyon-Carving, Freeway-Dissecting, Corner-Chomping, Pop-Your-Eyeballs-Out-Braking, Two-Seat-Heaven RX-7
The Banzai Edition RX-7 utilizes a 20B three rotor twin turbocharged engine which produces 550 Hp, propelling the Banzai to light speed in a flash. The Banzai is fitted with a huge custom built front mount intercooler, hi flow radiator, and retro fit air conditioning condenser to handle the extra cooling needs. A special computer-designed sub frame fits the 20B power plant perfectly into the RX-7 engine bay and allows easy access to all components for service. A custom Digital Management System provides unsurpassed drive ability and unbelievable performance without all of the spaghetti wiring of the factory system. A TKT Stainless Steel Exhaust System gives it the perfect note. Special Trak-Pro suspension and brake systems handle the extra performance with ease. Power is transferred to the ground via Bridgestone Potenza S-02 225/40ZR18 front and 285/35ZR18 rear tires mounted on beautiful 18" x 8.5" front and 18" x 10" rear Forgeline LS web design wheels.
Pettit Racing's products have established a firm foothold in the RX-7 performance and accessory market for the average RX-7 owner as well as the true enthusiast. In order to maintain our position as an industry leader, Pettit Racing actively competes in professional road and drag racing. Since 1980, Pettit Racing has won 5 road racing championships, set several track records, and competed in countless drag races. Our quickest quarter mile has been 10.855 seconds. In the 1996 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona, our car competed in the world class event on DOT street tires, finishing a respectable 11th place in the S2 class and more recently took 3rd place in the S2 class at the Sebring sports car race in October 1997. Pettit's 3rd gen RX-7 finished in 5th place in the S2 class at the 1998 Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona For more information, or to place an order, please call (954) 563-6064."
Now, having said that, I don't want anyone misinterpreting my post. I have nothing but the utmost respect for Pettit. In fact, I met Cam a few years back, and he was very kind, very down to earth, and an all around nice guy. Plus he said he loved my FD
So yea...this isn't a negative post; rather just a critical comment about Pettit's claims for the Banzai.Porting only shifts max power higher up in the powerband; it won't help the turbos make more power than they are actually capable of. In this case (the Banzai), the turbos reach maximum efficiency (according to you) at 6,700 rpm. So porting will simply help the turbos reach maximum efficiency faster (ie lower in the powerband), but won't yield more power out of them, since they're maxed out as it is. Keep in mind of the turbines is actually SMALLER than the FD's twins, and the other is the same size. So it's inevitable that the 20B twins will make LESS power than the stock FD twins. Couple this w/ the fact that the Stage III BNRs have made a maximum of 425rwhp (and in this case the engine was NOT the limiting factor; rather, it was poorly designed - aka not high flowing - runners of the twins, and a restrictive exhaust manifold) that limit the twins from making more power. So 500hp on the 20B twins is a LOOOONG shot. mirabile, that convincing enough for ya?
~Ramy
If you port and engine you reach the turbos maximun efficiency sooner and get the turbos out of theyr efficyency rage sooner too, thats what I ment not that the turbos will make more power on a non ported engine
the 6,700 rpm effiency of the turbos have come from a lot of engine dynos with 20b's, sorry that I dont have them, in my expirience with this, once you port the engine power beggins to fall from 5,500 to 5,700 and only make about the same power, Why would you increase air flow when you know the turbos cant handle it?
my FD used to have 427 rwhp but dint make for a good street car in my opinion, in fact I like the way my cosmo feels better than the way my fd use to feel, thats why Im doing the swap, the twins will only be on the car for some time
Last edited by rotary crazy; 02-21-07 at 06:29 AM.
02-21-07, 08:17 AM
#1282
Originally Posted by Red-Rx7
Hi David,
Hope things are going well. I hate to rub it in, but.....
Anyhow, good luck on finishing the project.
Mike
Hope things are going well. I hate to rub it in, but.....
Anyhow, good luck on finishing the project.
Mike
02-21-07, 08:27 AM
#1283
Originally Posted by mirabile
Based on how fast you respond to emails, I read way faster then you Ramy. 
When studying law you learn to look for facts.
I see no dyno sheets, just speculation on whether it is in fact possible.
David's experience is the closest thing I see to fact.
I am trying to attain dyno sheets from one of the Pettit 3 rotors.
I will report back.
When studying law you learn to look for facts.
I see no dyno sheets, just speculation on whether it is in fact possible.
David's experience is the closest thing I see to fact.
I am trying to attain dyno sheets from one of the Pettit 3 rotors.
I will report back.
Pettit "Dyno":
My Dyno:
FYI - yes, I did greatly improve on my AFR (in the 11s) after the above dyno run but my HP numbers never changed.
02-27-07, 05:10 PM
#1285
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 4,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David, nice talking to you today.. thanks for all the info you gave me. I think a single turbo setup is going to happen on mine also.. Thinking in 6 moths or so. The 3 rortor FD will be in my garage tommorow afternoon...
02-27-07, 05:18 PM
#1286
Twin Turbo LSX
Originally Posted by David Hayes
Somewhere around the time Pettit was working on my car, they changed their claim from 550 to 500 HP. I've attached the only "dyno" chart I've ever seen - it's an Excel spreadsheet graph. Also included is my dyno sheet - could never get more than this regardless of what I tried.
Pettit "Dyno":
My Dyno:
FYI - yes, I did greatly improve on my AFR (in the 11s) after the above dyno run but my HP numbers never changed.
Pettit "Dyno":
My Dyno:
FYI - yes, I did greatly improve on my AFR (in the 11s) after the above dyno run but my HP numbers never changed.
This dyno sheet is with 3rotor twins correct? I've always understood Cam's claims to be at the flywheel, not the tires. 500-550rwhp from stock twins isn't overly realistic IMO.
02-27-07, 07:08 PM
#1287
Originally Posted by 1point3liter
I've always understood Cam's claims to be at the flywheel, not the tires. 500-550rwhp from stock twins isn't overly realistic IMO.
Follow w/ me here...1) Everyone agrees that the air the motor can flow is NOT the limiting factor; it's how much air the TURBOS can flow.
2) The 13B-REW twins are larger than the 20B twins. One of the turbines is the same size, while the other is actually *physically* a smaller turbo. That is a *fact.*
3) As such, 13B-REW twins will flow more and thus support and produce more power than 20B twins, no matter WHAT you do to them (provided you take both twin to their max potential, be it equal or different).
4) Moreover, the 20B twins were designed for a luxury application (the Cosmo), so power delivery can be smooth and constant. It wasn't in any way designed for max power. (Heck, it had a 3-rotor, and wasn't making much power as it is!) So the assumption that the runners/manifold could be designed better is not just unlikely, but for all intensive purposes impossible. So again, the stock 20B twins can in *no way* outflow 13B-REW twins, and *especially* not upgraded 13B-REW twins.
5) Furthermore, Rich (GoodfellaFD3S) made the most power on record to date (to my understanding) on *any* set of twins, in *any* fashion. He put down 425rwhp on a dyno. That's on the upgraded Stage III BNR turbos, in non-sequential mode. That's as high flow as it gets.
6) Assuming 15% power loss for a manual (which Rich has), that puts his 425 rwhp at about 500 crank. So you're telling me that a 20B detuned for luxury driving, w/ smaller turbos of lower flow and efficiency made between 500 and 550 hp at the crank?? Keep in mind (from the points above) that:
- Prepping and porting of the motor has NO role here, as airflow of the motor is NOT the limiting factor. It's the airflow of the TURBOS that's limiting
- The 20B twins, even after using upgraded internals and blueprinting blah blah are still indeed *physically* smaller than the 13B-REW twins
- The 20B twins aren't designed to - and consequently they don't - flow much for high hp applications
- The 13B-REW twins (for all intensive purposes minus one or two times in HISTORY) can't make 500 crank, let alone a FAR cry to 550 crank (about 468rwhp).
If the Pettit #s were anywhere *near* in the same ballpark as being accurate, we ALL have been wasting our time on the 13B-REW twins, when all we had to do was come up w/ a way to run the 20B twins on our cars!
~Ramy
02-28-07, 07:58 AM
#1289
Originally Posted by gonzz
David, nice talking to you today.. thanks for all the info you gave me. I think a single turbo setup is going to happen on mine also.. Thinking in 6 moths or so. The 3 rortor FD will be in my garage tommorow afternoon...
02-28-07, 08:05 AM
#1290
Update!!!!
I'm off to Gotham Racing on March 9th to check out the car. I'm flying in on a Friday and am going to hang around for the weekend.
My goal is to check out the work on the car and go over it with Steve to ensure we're on the same page regarding all issues. Brock at Gotham indicates the car is back from the fabricator (intercooler piping and water injection tank). The injection pump now needs to be installed and the car will then be ready for tuning. That should occur next week.
My wife and I have some business in CA during the week of March 20th so we're going to fly back into Dallas then and pick up the car for good. We'll "road trip" it back that week. Haven't been to New Orleans so now is our chance.
There's about two weeks between each trip so Gotham will have a chance to fix anything we find next weekend.
Cross your fingers - it's getting close I'll make sure to take plenty of pics on each trip.
I'm off to Gotham Racing on March 9th to check out the car. I'm flying in on a Friday and am going to hang around for the weekend.
My goal is to check out the work on the car and go over it with Steve to ensure we're on the same page regarding all issues. Brock at Gotham indicates the car is back from the fabricator (intercooler piping and water injection tank). The injection pump now needs to be installed and the car will then be ready for tuning. That should occur next week.
My wife and I have some business in CA during the week of March 20th so we're going to fly back into Dallas then and pick up the car for good. We'll "road trip" it back that week. Haven't been to New Orleans so now is our chance.
There's about two weeks between each trip so Gotham will have a chance to fix anything we find next weekend.
Cross your fingers - it's getting close
I'll make sure to take plenty of pics on each trip.
02-28-07, 08:08 AM
#1291
Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Then your opinion is flawed Follow w/ me here...
1) Everyone agrees that the air the motor can flow is NOT the limiting factor; it's how much air the TURBOS can flow.
2) The 13B-REW twins are larger than the 20B twins. One of the turbines is the same size, while the other is actually *physically* a smaller turbo. That is a *fact.*
3) As such, 13B-REW twins will flow more and thus support and produce more power than 20B twins, no matter WHAT you do to them (provided you take both twin to their max potential, be it equal or different).
4) Moreover, the 20B twins were designed for a luxury application (the Cosmo), so power delivery can be smooth and constant. It wasn't in any way designed for max power. (Heck, it had a 3-rotor, and wasn't making much power as it is!) So the assumption that the runners/manifold could be designed better is not just unlikely, but for all intensive purposes impossible. So again, the stock 20B twins can in *no way* outflow 13B-REW twins, and *especially* not upgraded 13B-REW twins.
5) Furthermore, Rich (GoodfellaFD3S) made the most power on record to date (to my understanding) on *any* set of twins, in *any* fashion. He put down 425rwhp on a dyno. That's on the upgraded Stage III BNR turbos, in non-sequential mode. That's as high flow as it gets.
6) Assuming 15% power loss for a manual (which Rich has), that puts his 425 rwhp at about 500 crank. So you're telling me that a 20B detuned for luxury driving, w/ smaller turbos of lower flow and efficiency made between 500 and 550 hp at the crank?? Keep in mind (from the points above) that:
- Prepping and porting of the motor has NO role here, as airflow of the motor is NOT the limiting factor. It's the airflow of the TURBOS that's limiting
- The 20B twins, even after using upgraded internals and blueprinting blah blah are still indeed *physically* smaller than the 13B-REW twins
- The 20B twins aren't designed to - and consequently they don't - flow much for high hp applications
- The 13B-REW twins (for all intensive purposes minus one or two times in HISTORY) can't make 500 crank, let alone a FAR cry to 550 crank (about 468rwhp).
If the Pettit #s were anywhere *near* in the same ballpark as being accurate, we ALL have been wasting our time on the 13B-REW twins, when all we had to do was come up w/ a way to run the 20B twins on our cars!
~Ramy
Follow w/ me here...1) Everyone agrees that the air the motor can flow is NOT the limiting factor; it's how much air the TURBOS can flow.
2) The 13B-REW twins are larger than the 20B twins. One of the turbines is the same size, while the other is actually *physically* a smaller turbo. That is a *fact.*
3) As such, 13B-REW twins will flow more and thus support and produce more power than 20B twins, no matter WHAT you do to them (provided you take both twin to their max potential, be it equal or different).
4) Moreover, the 20B twins were designed for a luxury application (the Cosmo), so power delivery can be smooth and constant. It wasn't in any way designed for max power. (Heck, it had a 3-rotor, and wasn't making much power as it is!) So the assumption that the runners/manifold could be designed better is not just unlikely, but for all intensive purposes impossible. So again, the stock 20B twins can in *no way* outflow 13B-REW twins, and *especially* not upgraded 13B-REW twins.
5) Furthermore, Rich (GoodfellaFD3S) made the most power on record to date (to my understanding) on *any* set of twins, in *any* fashion. He put down 425rwhp on a dyno. That's on the upgraded Stage III BNR turbos, in non-sequential mode. That's as high flow as it gets.
6) Assuming 15% power loss for a manual (which Rich has), that puts his 425 rwhp at about 500 crank. So you're telling me that a 20B detuned for luxury driving, w/ smaller turbos of lower flow and efficiency made between 500 and 550 hp at the crank?? Keep in mind (from the points above) that:
- Prepping and porting of the motor has NO role here, as airflow of the motor is NOT the limiting factor. It's the airflow of the TURBOS that's limiting
- The 20B twins, even after using upgraded internals and blueprinting blah blah are still indeed *physically* smaller than the 13B-REW twins
- The 20B twins aren't designed to - and consequently they don't - flow much for high hp applications
- The 13B-REW twins (for all intensive purposes minus one or two times in HISTORY) can't make 500 crank, let alone a FAR cry to 550 crank (about 468rwhp).
If the Pettit #s were anywhere *near* in the same ballpark as being accurate, we ALL have been wasting our time on the 13B-REW twins, when all we had to do was come up w/ a way to run the 20B twins on our cars!
~Ramy
02-28-07, 10:21 AM
#1292
Banned. I got OWNED!!!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 4,236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by David Hayes
It was a pleasure. Good luck and post some pics!
02-28-07, 10:45 AM
#1294
development
Originally Posted by David Hayes
Haven't been to New Orleans so now is our chance.
02-28-07, 02:25 PM
#1295
Originally Posted by dubulup
I'm sure there are few rotorheads in the area that would love to take a look/listen...
Might be able to arrange that. We're flying into Dallas and will be at Gotham Racing on Thursday, March 22nd. We're taking off for home on that Friday and would most likely stop in New Orleans that Friday night, maybe even Saturday also. Don't know exactly yet.
For those of you in the Dallas area, I'm hanging out at Gotham next Friday evening (March 9th) and then on Saturday. Anyone interested in getting together? I've heard NOPI is that weekend also so maybe a run over to the NOPI event? Newsflash - "Nopi is overrun by an invasion of RX7s." Maybe we'd make the TV show.
03-01-07, 05:28 AM
#1297
Originally Posted by FDNewbie
Then your opinion is flawed Follow w/ me here...
1) Everyone agrees that the air the motor can flow is NOT the limiting factor; it's how much air the TURBOS can flow.
2) The 13B-REW twins are larger than the 20B twins. One of the turbines is the same size, while the other is actually *physically* a smaller turbo. That is a *fact.*
3) As such, 13B-REW twins will flow more and thus support and produce more power than 20B twins, no matter WHAT you do to them (provided you take both twin to their max potential, be it equal or different).
4) Moreover, the 20B twins were designed for a luxury application (the Cosmo), so power delivery can be smooth and constant. It wasn't in any way designed for max power. (Heck, it had a 3-rotor, and wasn't making much power as it is!) So the assumption that the runners/manifold could be designed better is not just unlikely, but for all intensive purposes impossible. So again, the stock 20B twins can in *no way* outflow 13B-REW twins, and *especially* not upgraded 13B-REW twins.
5) Furthermore, Rich (GoodfellaFD3S) made the most power on record to date (to my understanding) on *any* set of twins, in *any* fashion. He put down 425rwhp on a dyno. That's on the upgraded Stage III BNR turbos, in non-sequential mode. That's as high flow as it gets.
6) Assuming 15% power loss for a manual (which Rich has), that puts his 425 rwhp at about 500 crank. So you're telling me that a 20B detuned for luxury driving, w/ smaller turbos of lower flow and efficiency made between 500 and 550 hp at the crank?? Keep in mind (from the points above) that:
- Prepping and porting of the motor has NO role here, as airflow of the motor is NOT the limiting factor. It's the airflow of the TURBOS that's limiting
- The 20B twins, even after using upgraded internals and blueprinting blah blah are still indeed *physically* smaller than the 13B-REW twins
- The 20B twins aren't designed to - and consequently they don't - flow much for high hp applications
- The 13B-REW twins (for all intensive purposes minus one or two times in HISTORY) can't make 500 crank, let alone a FAR cry to 550 crank (about 468rwhp).
If the Pettit #s were anywhere *near* in the same ballpark as being accurate, we ALL have been wasting our time on the 13B-REW twins, when all we had to do was come up w/ a way to run the 20B twins on our cars!
~Ramy
Follow w/ me here...1) Everyone agrees that the air the motor can flow is NOT the limiting factor; it's how much air the TURBOS can flow.
2) The 13B-REW twins are larger than the 20B twins. One of the turbines is the same size, while the other is actually *physically* a smaller turbo. That is a *fact.*
3) As such, 13B-REW twins will flow more and thus support and produce more power than 20B twins, no matter WHAT you do to them (provided you take both twin to their max potential, be it equal or different).
4) Moreover, the 20B twins were designed for a luxury application (the Cosmo), so power delivery can be smooth and constant. It wasn't in any way designed for max power. (Heck, it had a 3-rotor, and wasn't making much power as it is!) So the assumption that the runners/manifold could be designed better is not just unlikely, but for all intensive purposes impossible. So again, the stock 20B twins can in *no way* outflow 13B-REW twins, and *especially* not upgraded 13B-REW twins.
5) Furthermore, Rich (GoodfellaFD3S) made the most power on record to date (to my understanding) on *any* set of twins, in *any* fashion. He put down 425rwhp on a dyno. That's on the upgraded Stage III BNR turbos, in non-sequential mode. That's as high flow as it gets.
6) Assuming 15% power loss for a manual (which Rich has), that puts his 425 rwhp at about 500 crank. So you're telling me that a 20B detuned for luxury driving, w/ smaller turbos of lower flow and efficiency made between 500 and 550 hp at the crank?? Keep in mind (from the points above) that:
- Prepping and porting of the motor has NO role here, as airflow of the motor is NOT the limiting factor. It's the airflow of the TURBOS that's limiting
- The 20B twins, even after using upgraded internals and blueprinting blah blah are still indeed *physically* smaller than the 13B-REW twins
- The 20B twins aren't designed to - and consequently they don't - flow much for high hp applications
- The 13B-REW twins (for all intensive purposes minus one or two times in HISTORY) can't make 500 crank, let alone a FAR cry to 550 crank (about 468rwhp).
If the Pettit #s were anywhere *near* in the same ballpark as being accurate, we ALL have been wasting our time on the 13B-REW twins, when all we had to do was come up w/ a way to run the 20B twins on our cars!
~Ramy
03-01-07, 06:37 AM
#1299
Back to the DrawingBoard.
iTrader: (32)
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Va
Posts: 2,526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by gonzz
I'm picking it up in a hour.. Can't wait to get started on it... Will post pics in a day or so