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Carolina Rotaries is a group on facebook, most of them are in the Raleigh area I think and there are still a bunch of people in the group that were there when I lived in Fayetteville 2004-08. I'd go up and meet with them pretty much every weekend because there was practically no one in Fayettenam. Really good people. I'm actually in their fb group again now lol.
But yeah, it's too hot there to not have AC, so buying the lines would look pretty good I guess lol.
Got my downpipe connected to the rest of the exhaust system and she looks to finally be running pretty good! I put the 7psi springs in and the manifold appears to be do a very good job of holding it. Visually, I see about 7psi on my analog boost gauge. When I take some data logs and convert the values to PSI, it looks to hold around 8-9psi at WOT. I just shipped some data logs to Bryan at Rotorsports to give a quick look over but I think I'm good at ~7psi. My Wideband is 10.2-10.8 so I'm still running rich. I tried doing some runs in 4th gear but by the time I hit 5k rpm, I'm at almost 80mph so I couldn't go any faster for obvious reasons. I also did a 3rd gear pull and was able to get to about 7k rpm before I had to slow down.
Assuming everything looks good, I'll connect my boost controller, make sure it works at 7psi and increase 1psi at a time. I'll probably stop at 12psi for now. If the data still looks good, then I'm ready to take the car to the dyno next month without first needing Bryan to do a street tune. He'd prefer to have a solid street tune and use the dyno to clean things up. We're hoping the existing tune I have now is still good.
Overall, I'm very happy with the @Turblown manifold. Elliot provided great help, even off hours, via Facebook messenger when I had questions. It's nice to not overboost and to spool up a little quicker. In 4th gear I start making boost at 2500rpm and I'm full boost around 3600rpm. Getting so close....
That's awesome! It's good to know that it was the design of the old manifold that was causing you boost creep.
Is the car any louder or sound any different with the new manifold?
Dale
Hard to tell if it sounds different but I *think* I can hear the turbo spooling up better. Having dual WG def sound a little different but I'll be honest, after having the open downpipe, anything sounds better to the ears.
Having some issues with my solenoid for boost control. I tried using 7psi (.5 kg/cm^2) and 10psi (.7 kg/cm^2) with varying duty cycles and I still get the same flat response at around .55 - .6 kg/cm^2 (8-8.5psi) on my data loggit charts like I do running on spring pressure. The fact that I can try 10psi and still get the ~7psi spring pressure rate says something isn't working right. The solenoid was re-used from my busted AVC-R so I just tapped the AVC-R wiring harness and have one wire going to +12V and the other to pin 4V (Turbo Precontrol) per @arghx posts. With the car in the garage and the ignition in the ON position, when I touch the pin that corresponds to +12V with a test light (connected to ground), the light comes on and I hear the solenoid click. This to me says at least the power is wired correctly so if there is a wiring issue, is it something with the PFC not triggering a ground on 4V? I don't know if I should buy a new MAC solenoid and try it out but since I hear the solenoid click and I can blow on a hose and have air go through depending on the state, I assume it is working. Open to ideas?
Crude pics of my wiring and testing with the test light along with how my setup is plumbed with my setup. I accidentally drew in +5 but I am in fact wired to +12V. The only difference in plumbing is that I have brass Tees to split the connections to each wastage because I have two wastegates.
Most times with boost controllers you set your target boost then a gain. The gain is a percentage. I think the PFC's boost control is similar.
Set your target boost then start slowly increasing the gain until you can hit it.
First you have too much boost, now not enough .
Dale
My understanding is you set the target boost and duty cycle. Those are the only two settings. I started at 7psi and messed with the duty cycle and saw no difference. When I changed my target to 10psi and saw no difference, that's when I suspected something isn't working right. Maybe @arghx can chime in but I've read his old posts a million times. I used this as my guide.
I can just resolve this by throwing in springs but I would prefer some control and adjustability without the hassle (and it's a PITA) to change springs out in the WGs.
I think at one point I was under the impression that the AVC-R solenoid and the Boost Control Kit solenoid were the same, but I think they aren't. I'd just get the MAC solenoid, they're not expensive. Then you eliminate that from the troubleshooting. I can barely make sense of your hand scratched diagram, maybe leveling up to MS Paint would help
You may need to get more aggressive in your duty cycle. Also make sure in the commander that the #1 setting in the boost control is highlighted, in single turbo only the first one does anything.
May want to read pages 27 and 28 of the Commander instruction manual -
I think at one point I was under the impression that the AVC-R solenoid and the Boost Control Kit solenoid were the same, but I think they aren't. I'd just get the MAC solenoid, they're not expensive. Then you eliminate that from the troubleshooting. I can barely make sense of your hand scratched diagram, maybe leveling up to MS Paint would help
Haha. @arghx - As a refresher, I had a full AVC-R but I shorted my AVCR so I'm just re-using the solenoid. The Solenoid looks just like the MAC solenoid. Since the solenoid was wired to the AVCR harness, I unplugged the AVCR harness from the PFC and just tapped the power and ground to +12V and to Pre-Control. In short, I'm just using the harness as wiring existing wiring to tap into. I thought maybe I had an issue with power but when I touch the pin on the harness that corresponds to +12V where I tapped power, test light lights up when I touch the test light to ground so I know the solenoid is getting power. What I don't know, and don't know if I can test is if Precontrol is actually grounding when it's trying to control boost.
You may need to get more aggressive in your duty cycle. Also make sure in the commander that the #1 setting in the boost control is highlighted, in single turbo only the first one does anything.
May want to read pages 27 and 28 of the Commander instruction manual -
I thought that there are two boost settings, #1 and #2, and that each one has Primary (PR) and Secondary values (SC). From what I understand, only the boost and duty cycle for (PR) matters not (SC). Based on what you said, it sounds like you're saying I can only use the first boost setting but not the second? In the attached screenshot, I read this as having two boost settings, .8 for #1 and .9 for #1. If I select #1, I get .8 as my target boost and my duty cycle is 56%. What's in the SC column is ignored/not relevant. Are you saying that I can only use #1 but not #2?
Also, I’ll try some runs with boost duty way high. I assumed based on other people’s results that 45-60% is where most land or start but I guess I can try at 100 and work down from there. Can’t hurt if as long as I don’t go high on my target boost
Let me know if you figure this out. Can't get an EFR solenoid or a Greddy mac style valve to work worth a crap through precontrol. Boost is all over the place. No gain adjustment in PFC. But, rock solid with a MBC. Get it sorted! Our tuning sesh's with Bryan should be coming soon! Great progress otherwise, keep it up.
So on the advice of @Molotovman , I re-plumbed and went with the single port connection vs the two port and WTF. It worked! It definitely controls boost but as @arghx said in many of his posts, it tends hold boost higher than the set target, but it holds boost. Doing this solo, it was hard to keep track of all my runs but I essentially started at .5 kg/cm^2 (7.1psi) and it would consistently hold about .65 (~9psi). This was at 42% duty cycle. I then moved to .7 (~10psi) and it would hold around .8 (11psi). I finally upped it to .8 (11.4psi) and it held around .86 (~12psi). I don't feel like it spools any faster but it's definitely holding the pressure constant!!!!! Now, I absolutely checked my plumbing of the two port method many many times so I don't know why it didn't work. I never got around to upping the duty cycle but perhaps that might be the issue since the single port method has the pressure line going to the Normally Open (NO) port whereas two port method had pressure line going to Normally Closed (NC) port. Per @DaleClark I maybe needed to go way higher. Doesn't matter. I ain't messing with the plumbing now.
When I look at my %PC metric (logged solenoid duty cycle where 255 = 100%), it doesn't look as "square" in the transition as they do in the chart in post 1of this thread from @arghx (he uses %WG because he was using the WG control pin -- red line). Mine seems to taper off (light blue line). Not sure if that's something I can/need to change. @Banzai-Racing is the one who posts later in the thread to use precontrol instead of wastegate control so maybe that's why?
Based on my log, I'm 10.6 AFR at 12psi so I'm still a little rich but safe. I think I finally might be ready for dyno tune unless one of you smarter people sees anything in my chart that says there is more optimizing to do before hand.
What I was originally doing was tricking the PFC into thinking it was running a sequential car. In that case the gate is fully shut (wastegate duty basically maxed) until the transition RPM you set. Banzai Racing explained that you can just turn off sequential turbo control and plug into the precontrol line. In that case the control logic is different, and honestly probably less likely to spike. It's not as adjustable and powerful as an AVC-R, but it's one less box in the cabin, and it integrates with the datalogging and overboost fuel cut of the rest of the engine control (which IMO is one of the biggest benefits).
I'm wondering if the PFC boost control just can't operate the solenoid hooked up with the 2-port method to an external wastegate. I know some aftermarket boost controllers you have to tell it or flip a switch to toggle between the 2 types of a hookup.
I'm wondering if the PFC boost control just can't operate the solenoid hooked up with the 2-port method to an external wastegate. I know some aftermarket boost controllers you have to tell it or flip a switch to toggle between the 2 types of a hookup.
REALLY sucks your AVC-R got cooked, I love mine.
Regardless I think you are ready to get tuned!
Dale
Tell me about it. I've been trolling eBay to see if there is one for cheap (or dead that I can use for parts to fix mine) but not much luck. One guy on eBay is selling one "As is" for $175 and says he has no idea if it works or not....No thanks. This should be good enough for now.
I think I still have my AVC-R and I've been not-actively trying to sell it for several years now lol. It worked when I removed it. The harness had one wire that I think was iffy but I jumped it and everything worked fine, but if I remember right I couldn't find anything wrong with that wire when I put a multimeter on it. Either way, it's for sale.
Good News: I dropped my car off with Bryan at Rotorsports so he can do some street tuning before we hit the Dyno on July 10th along with @aplscrambles car. I also got got some custom AC lines made to fit the RX-8 condenser. I ended up ordering one RX8 hose from Rockauto and another from Ray Crow (Rockauto didn't sell that one). I towed my car to Alliance Hose here in Raleigh so they could make sure they had the right measurements to make the lines. $200 and 2 hours later, I had 3 custom lines: Compressor to condenser, Condenser back to expansion valve, Evaporator to Compressor. It was not as easy as I thought as they had to try several combinations of reducers/fittings to get things to fix. Would have been a DIY nightmare that I most certainly could have messed up a few times. The Evaporator to Compressor line was the OE but the vMount kit made it too short to reach and the Greddy provided adapter/extention wasn't going to fit so they just extended that line. The downside to the RX8 fittings is that they don't rotate so we were forced to run lines based on the fitting direction but it worked out for the most part. I relocated the pressure switch to the passenger side and then just extended the wiring so it would reach the connector that is near the drivers side headlight. I had to modify the aluminum "trim" piece that runs across the radiator to mount the condenser and then took one of the unused brackets in the VMount kit to build a rough idea for a brackets for the bottom of the condenser. I then took that idea to a local machine shop and they made me brackets for $20. Photos with descriptions below.
Now for the bad news: Never trust those stupid R134 refill kits with built in gauges. Prior to the VMount, I had AC working but my compressor would occasionally scream and whine like dying animal. I thought it was the used compressor I had going bad so I ordered a reman and installed it. I charged up the system and the thing starts screaming. When it screams, my car also struggled to idle (same issue with old compressor). After some googling, it turns out that that screaming is due to a way over charged compressor (vs a bad compressor). Before I charged anything, I pulled a vacuum and left the system overnight and verified I had zero leaks. I then added R134 per the instructions. The clutch kicked on and the AC started to run but it never blew cold air before the screaming started. When it did, I shut the car off, and also noticed a leak in my engine bay near one of the fittings. It turns out the fittings on the pressure switch line were only hand tightened by the shop. I tightened them back up, connected the manifold pressure gauges back to the system to see what pressure was left after the leak. That's when I noticed the pressure being read by the gauges was WAY off from the gauge on the R134 refill dispenser. I did some youTube searches and many people say those gauges are wrong and that filling an AC system only knowing the low pressure value (which all those refill dispensers show) is not a good because you really need to understand the high pressure side as well. So I pulled another vacuum except this time it's not holding a vacuum so I have a leak somewhere. By the time I figured this out, it was too late to attempt to fix before loading up the car to take to Rotorsports. When I get back the from the dyno, Ill need to figure out where the leak is. At this point, I think I'm just going to take the car to an AC shop to have this re-charge right. No shops wanted to touch making custom lines but now that shouldn't be an issue. Ugh.
Bonus: I got the OEM 93's nose to fit. I now have a Veilside D1-GT Body kit for sale....
Custom AC Line being made on the car
I had to cut out a notch as indicted by the red lines to mount the top of the condenser to this aluminum "trim" that's part of the Greddy Kit that sits on top of the radiator
Condenser mounts nice on top with the notches.
I used some washers to make space been the aluminum trim and the radiator. This allowed the condenser to mount without having to bend the aluminum and it created a nice channel to run the wiring for the pressure sensor through back to the driver side.
You can see the pressure sensor is now on the passenger side and the custom fittings/lines to hook it all up
This is the line from Condenser to the pressure sensor which goes back to the expansion valve. Notices the bend in the line due to the orientation fo the RX8 condenser fitting.
The line from the compressor to condenser. Again, it's not perfectly straight because of the angle of the RX8 fitting.
Here are the two brackets I had made to support the bottom of the condenser
AC can be a big learning curve, but when you get it working right it's SO nice. Makes the car much more usable.
Dale
My worry about taking it to a shop is that they won't know how much oil or r134a to put in. I assume they will just go by the specs but the specs call for R12 amounts so I'm hoping there is some conversion table they use.
There is. Also many times they can charge by pressure on the gauge.
You have a temperature-pressure chart. You look up the outside temp and humidity and charge to a proper pressure. Also, typically you put a certain percentage of R134a, about 75% to 85% of the original R12 charge.
An FD stock uses 22oz of R12. So, 134a would be 16.5oz to 18.7 oz of R134a.
Good work on the a/c. Hope to get mine working one day. Dyno day is getting close! Is he doing any street tuning on yours before we go to the dyno?
Yep. He’s gonna drive it, take some logs and tune as needed. He wants to maximize dyno time by getting as much as possible tweaked before we get there.
Dyno Day was yesterday! @aplscrambles and I split dyno time to have both our cars tuned and measured on the dyno. Before I get to the results, I'll put another plug in for Bryan at Rotorsports Racing. He took my car out and street tuned it prior to the hitting the dyno. A few hiccups (of course): the alternator belt snapped while he was driving it and the flapping belt also took out he coolant level sensor (snapped the wire). I had just replaced the AC/PS belt but didn't have the right size for alternator (I ordered a FD Bando set on Amazon) because I realized that my car didn't have the air pump. It was an old belt from when I got the car so I guess better to bust before rather than on the Dyno. Bryan got those replaced and said he did about 15 street runs on my car. He had to take a lot of fuel out. He said the PFC did a fantastic job holding boost.
Fast forward to the Dyno. The car was running so good on his street tune, that based on the Wideband and Datalogit logs, Bryan didn't have to make a single adjustment! My first pull kicked out 410HP at the wheels (all are 4th gear pulls). This is the "weather corrected factor" (WCF) number. All my subsequent runs were somewhere in that ballpark. Things were looking so good that Bryan said we really didn't need to run it to redline since we had already seen where the torque curve flattened out and I didn't want to up the boost. In retrospect, I should have done runs all the way to redline just for some prettier charts and to see what max HP I make at redline. Aside from the RPM dyno calibration runs, we did 3 total pulls. All in all, I was off the dyno in an hour with no changes being made...just verifying the street tune. Kudos to Bryan for a solid street tune. If anyone thinks he was lazy or that he didn't wanna tune my car, that was not the case as he definitely had to make adjustments to @aplscrambles setup. My best run of the day was 377HP at the wheels @ 6463RPM (431HP WCF). Torque was 316 @ 5876 RPM (361 WCF). I know not everyone believes in WCF numbers but the non-correct ("real") wheel HP/TQ numbers are pretty much right where I wanted this car to be for a fun, safe, and (hopefully) reliable, build. Weather wise, it was about 80 degrees out with 73% humidity. I'd love to see number numbers on a cold winter day!
Attached is a curve and my best run summary. The curve shows WCF numbers and not uncorrected. Not a huge fan that, but the curve looked solid regardless. Unfortunately, we didn't print the right curve for the best run so the curve below is for a 411HP WCF run whereas the results summary is for the 431HP WCF pull. I didn't realize until I got home and went through all my paperwork. My 3 runs (in WCF HP) were 410, 411, and 431. I suspect if we ran the car to redline, I'd top out at 450 give or take. Given the size of my turbo, it definitely had more air to move. If we assume 15% drivetrain loss, then with my non-corrected numbers, that's 443HP at the crank (377HP at the wheels) on pump gas. I don't know if this is good, bad, or avg for single turbo FDs but I'm happy with it.
As reminder, I'm running a Borg Warner S362 8380 SX-E with Bryan's rebuilt street ported motor. I won't steal all of @aplscrambles thunder, but he made about the same HP with his EFR 8374 with stock port motor. He tried using Meth and man did it rob him of some HP. Hopefully he adds to his build thread his experience. Bryan def had to tweak his car on the dyno but I was solid. Attached are two YouTube links to some pulls. The engine bay one is when they were going to 5k RPM to calibrate the dyno to my wheel RPM. I love the sound of the Synapse BOV. The video from the rear was a run to 6.5k RPM. I suspect the smoke is because it was just started back up because while driving it today, I didn't see any rich numbers or any smoke. All in all, she drives great now! I also dig the exhaust sound. Thanks @DaleClark for the exhaust you had lying around.
Bryan rents dyno time from Taylors Sport-N-Import in Mooresville, NC (NASCAR country) and they also do general mechanic work so I had them take a look at my AC. They charged it once and sniffed a very small leak at the passenger vent but said when they pulled vacuum and charged again, they didn't detect any leak. Could be expansion valve or evaporator they think. They charged it up and were quick to point out that my high pressure side was through the roof after about a minute. Turns out my cooling fans weren't running. If you recall, my OEM harness to the fans was jacked and I had to add OEM fans back during my build. I had them wired to an electric fan controller that Rotorsports installed but that was two years ago before I had AC so the controller didn't have an AC trigger. In other words, my AC system was way over pressurized because I had no fans to draw air at idle. I bought a new controller today, wired it up, and when the AC is running, it works! It blew about 55-57 degrees of cold air which isn't bad considering it was 91 degrees out with 51% humidity.
I still have two issues with my AC I couldn't quite sort out today:
1. It still wants to stall in neutral when the compressor is on. It will idle around 950-1000 RPM (as shown on the PFC) and when I hit the AC button, it will sometimes drop to 600-700rpm. When it does, if I flip the AC off, its ok. Otherwise it comes very close to or does, stall. Occasionally, I’ll come off the gas (in neutral) and it will hold 900rpm just fine. Most of the time it's going stall more than work. I can't make heads or tails out of it. It’s annoying as hell to cut the AC at a traffic light. Any suggestions? I tried adjusting the IDLE values on the PFC but they don’t seem to do anything as far as I can tell. I'm going to assume the system was pressurized properly by the shop.
2. When I’m driving sometimes the AC blows cold and others it blows hot. I notice it more under load and I think I read somewhere that the factory ECU and PFC both cut the AC under load. I don’t know what it considers load, but is there anyway to bypass this functionality? If it's not that then I wonder if my compressor is cycling on and off for some reason and that's why it alternates? For the most part, if I was just cruising, the AC felt good but when Is started shifting and getting on the gas, thats when I noticed the air got warm.
If I can just get this AC sorted out right, I'm pretty golden minus an alignment and mounting the R1 lip I ordered from Ray Crowe. I was able to get the OEM front bumper on (def need a body shop to make it fit perfect). The goal is to just need body/paint later this year but to have an otherwise sorted out and "reliable" FD very very very very soon! I can almost see the finish line!
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