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I replumbed after watching a ton of random YouTube videos on boost controllers. The setup that worked for me was:
UIM --> Tee -->> NC Port and Bottom Port of WG
COM --> Top port of WG
In my first run, I set the target boost in the PFC at .5 kg/cm^2 (7.1 psi so pretty much equal to my 7psi spring) with a 65% duty cycle and I was able to do a 1/2 throttle 1st gear and then 2nd gear WOT and you can see from the chart that boost was flat at .52!
Now when I tried to up the boost to .85 (~13psi) with 65%, what I saw that it held steady around .8, I shifted gears, went hard on gas, and it went above to 1.1 and hit the fuel cutoff. I guess what I need to understand now is why the solenoid didn't bleed off boost to stop me from overshooting after I shifted gears?
What I'm also noticing is that it seems like by the time I'm able to spool to .85 boost, I'm pretty high up in the RPM (~6000) and I get pretty close to hitting the rev limiter so there isn't a lot of time for the boost controller to hold that boost. Is the just how my (big) turbo behaves in terms of spooling? A function of wastegate spring? Would I be better off putting a 14psi spring it it? Do I need be progressive on the gas vs just mashing the crap out of it?
Lots of head banging the last two days but this is progress!
.50 kg/cm^2 @65% duty -- holds flat in second gear at .52!
.85 kg/cm^2 @65% duty -- holds flat but as soon as I change gears, it doesn't hold and I spike and hit the fuel cutoff
Also, eventually I'd get rid of that silicone 90 coming off the turbo. I had one years ago and I watched it expand while doing pulls on the dyno. I thought BW made some of those non-EFR turbos with the compressor housings with the 90 degree built into the housing. I was always envious of that lol.
Also, eventually I'd get rid of that silicone 90 coming off the turbo. I had one years ago and I watched it expand while doing pulls on the dyno. I thought BW made some of those non-EFR turbos with the compressor housings with the 90 degree built into the housing. I was always envious of that lol.
Your post is what inspired me to try the RX8 condenser in my build. As for the 90 degree, I wish it had one. If it's available, my tuner didn't order it or tell me it was an option. I def need a better solution, but that's a temporary for now. Nothing off the shelf in terms of piping works and I don't know to how to weld or bend my own piping.
Your post is what inspired me to try the RX8 condenser in my build. As for the 90 degree, I wish it had one. If it's available, my tuner didn't order it or tell me it was an option. I def need a better solution, but that's a temporary for now. Nothing off the shelf in terms of piping works and I don't know to how to weld or bend my own piping.
Oh ok cool lol.
I can't really tell from the pic of your turbo, but does yours have the option of cutting off the top of the outlet and using a V-band on it to mount an elbow directly to it? I know the larger EFRs have that option as I did it on mine, but I can't tell by looking at yours. That would at least let you get a low profile aluminum elbow on there, if it's possible anyway.
Another thing about EFRs being more expensive, the cost of the wastegate and BOV are rolled into the price, that's how I look at it. But I was able to source my second one through a buddy for much cheaper than most places sell them.
I can't really tell from the pic of your turbo, but does yours have the option of cutting off the top of the outlet and using a V-band on it to mount an elbow directly to it? I know the larger EFRs have that option as I did it on mine, but I can't tell by looking at yours. That would at least let you get a low profile aluminum elbow on there, if it's possible anyway.
Another thing about EFRs being more expensive, the cost of the wastegate and BOV are rolled into the price, that's how I look at it. But I was able to source my second one through a buddy for much cheaper than most places sell them.
Yeh. Having considered possibly having to get a new bigger WG, I wish I went EFR....
I hate my car again. Dealing with a starting/stalling gremlin that only likes to show up on occasion. I posted to the main 3rd gen forum to get more eyes. Would def. appreciate any thoughts either here or on the post: https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati.../#post12405282
So I love my car again. I have no idea what causes the starting gremlin to show up but it hasn't. I just did a nice 50 miles back road ride and the car was great.
I still need to figure out the best solution to my boost issue though. I noticed at full throttle in 3rd gear, I'm hitting my fuel cutoff in the PFC by the time I hit about 6300rpm. My boost is set to .85 and the PFC cuts fuel at about .25 above that. I can see on my PFC that my max values are 6333rpm and 1.08 (~15psi). I'm guessing I'm leaving a lot of performance on the table. I managed to take some photos of my (unknown make) exhaust manifold and based on the turbo smart WG manual, I literally have the least optimal flow for the WG.
Not the best, but some times packaging and space (and cost) takes a back seat to best design.
Would be worth getting a pipe to route the wastegate gasses down towards the road, you can see the transmission covered in exhaust soot.
Is there a larger wastegate that fits on that manifold?
Dale
That's what I'm investigating now. My WG is Gen 4 40mm Turbosmart. I'm checking to see if 50mm or 60mm would fit the existing V-Band flange. If so, I might buy on on Amazon (free returns!) and try it out first. I've also looked into possibly getting the Turblown Exhaust Manifold but that solution will require me to buy (2) WG's so it's not a cheap proposition. I also don't know if a new manifold is going to mean I might need a new DP, which adds more cost. I'm going to lob a call into Elliot over there to pick his brain on my boost issue and get his thoughts. If I could get this boost control issue under control, I can dyno tune this thing and just be able to drive it.
Spoke to Elliot and he says my WG design isn't bad but the based on what I told him, I'd probably need a 60mm WG and even then, in 4th, 5th, and when it's cold, I'll probably still struggle to dump boost because not running crazy high boost in this turbo. He suggested his manifold + a gen 4 40mm WG (to match what I have) and then the adapter vBand clamps for Gen5 since his manifold is designed with GenV5 connections. He said a adding a Cat would definitely help as another option but he said I'lll probably burn through them.
You'd think with a pandemic going on, I'd have more time to work on my car, but thanks to having a wife that also works and a toddler, it's been the opposite. Thankfully, I found a few moments here and there to finish what I hope is the last real piece of a fully (properly) running setup. I ended up going with the setup Elliot at Turbsource recommended. I was hoping I could get away with just the manifold and wastegate, but my downpipe didn't clear with the new turbo location so I had to order a new DP and dumb tubes as well. Order time from Turbosource was good. Less than a week for everything to arrive.
Got it all put on this weekend. The only missing step is connecting my DP to my mid pipe. Got another week before my exhaust shop can get me in. Since I had everything off, I ordered some heat wrap from Amazon and wrapped the DP and manifold. I used hose clamps instead of the cheap metal zip tie looking things they came with. By far the biggest pain in the *** was intercooler piping from turbo to v-mount but thanks to Amazons free return policy, I ordered probably $200 worth of couplers and piping and just sent back what I didn't need. The setup isn't perfect since my hood would not shut if it weren't vented but it will do for now. Elliot was good about responding to any questions I had on Facebook Messenger and the install video on his website definitely helped. Thankfully, my S362 was able to be mounted to the manifold first vs mounting it to the manifold after the manifold was in. Those nuts would have been pain to access and tighten with the manifold installed. I would definitely recommend anyone have a good set of crow foot adapters though. It helped a lot with the install.
I fired her up to take a short test drive but I didn't get too far because an open downpipe is indeed loud as @#%$. Some old dude on his lawn gave me the finger (twice) as I drove by his house and back on my short test run. To be safe, I put 7psi springs in vs 14psi (the goal) because I have no idea how good my current map is tuned given it was tuned with a different exhaust, intercooler, and a manifold design.
I'm not sure if it's my open downpipe or just the new location of the O2 sensor, but I found my AFR readings were constantly changing...faster than they were before. Now my old DP had the bung maybe 8-10" from the turbo whereas the new DP has it a good 24" away (which is I learned is the recommended distance). I data logged my entire test drive but I didn't really make any formal test runs because it was too loud and I was legit worried I'd get a ticket so not sure the data is easy to interpret. I'm hoping Bryan can get me on the Dyno for a proper tune within a month. Last I spoke to him, his shop has 3 months worth of work to do.
In the meantime, what AFR's should I be looking for and when should I care and not care about the value? Just under boost? Just at WOT? I feel like I get a lot of transient values so when do I trust what I see vs. what is transient? Elliot said keep it under 11.8 at WOT. I've had some people say it should be closer to 10.5-11? If I see a number higher than the max cutoff, how long do I have before something bad happens? I plan to take data logs but it's hard to watch my AFR and drive safely and right now, I'm one person show with social distancing and my wife not being able to go on rides since someone has to watch then kid.
Part of me thinks I'm safe since Bryan had tuned the car for 14psi and I'm only running 7psi. Elliot says his manifold will hold 7psi even with an open DP, but he also said with a PFC, since there is not VE tuning like a Haltech, I can't assume my tune is 100% safe.
Here are a few photos. Can anyone identify this manifold design? It has no markings. I wonder if it's a PFS design since that's who worked my car according to the previous owner but as we learned earlier in this build, I got the shitty version of PFS since my car def. had some knockoff parts...
Old Manifold. Can anyone identify it? Shiny new Turblown Downpipe Wrapped downpipe New Manifold wrapped in heat wrap Turblown downpipes Dual WG and new dump tubs installed. Thank god I'm not a big guy...working under a car on stands sucks. the final setup to get my vMount connected (photo was before I clamped everything together) Hood barely closes with the new turbo to IC connections
So you are needing to get to the muffler shop to have the downpipe joined to the rest of the exhaust I assume. You may have had some wacky O2 readings with it not connected up, the sensor may have been reading some free air sneaking up into the downpipe. That is a better placement for the O2 sensor, too close and it will run too hot and error out/fail.
It looks like you could clock your compressor housing on the turbo so it's pointing straight up instead of towards the passenger side. That may make that IC plumbing a little simpler.
General rule of thumb is 11.5 AFR is safe at full throttle. More boost you may want to be richer, less boost you can be leaner. If you're seeing 11's on 7psi of boost you should be very safe.
I'm interested to see how it runs with the new setup!
So you are needing to get to the muffler shop to have the downpipe joined to the rest of the exhaust I assume. You may have had some wacky O2 readings with it not connected up, the sensor may have been reading some free air sneaking up into the downpipe. That is a better placement for the O2 sensor, too close and it will run too hot and error out/fail.
It looks like you could clock your compressor housing on the turbo so it's pointing straight up instead of towards the passenger side. That may make that IC plumbing a little simpler.
General rule of thumb is 11.5 AFR is safe at full throttle. More boost you may want to be richer, less boost you can be leaner. If you're seeing 11's on 7psi of boost you should be very safe.
I'm interested to see how it runs with the new setup!
Dale
I tried clocking the compressor to 12 o'clock position but that made it worse because then the elbow sits so high I can't even close the hood. The best solution would be to have a 90 degree cast elbow welded to the housing which would remove the height introduce by the silicone couplers but I can't do that on my own and it's definitely low on the cost model. Ill report back next week when I have the mid-pipe connected up. I feel like I'm finally going to be in a good spot to just drive it for a while and enjoy.
Nice! Long term having a 90 welded on might be a good option, but if it works it works. This car has come a VERY long way!
Dale
in hindsight I should have let it rot in a field and bought one ready to go. I probably would have saved myself about $18k compared to buying one ready to go. I guess there is a reason people rarely come out ahead on restores/project cars...
I have a new ECU and full paint job on my remaining list for things I plan to do. Ive already gotten paint quotes. I bet this thing is a $40k project including the chassis when is all is said and done 🤦🏻♂️
Hindsight is 20/20 but I'm always glad to see an FD put back on the road. Also it's kind of a bonding process to get it fixed up and make it a good car again.
I'm looking forward to seeing it again in person once we get this virus behind us!
^ Ah, the joys of owning an FD! I think we can all say, "been there, done that." Doesn't help with your monetary pain though, does it?
Really looking forward to seeing the progress you have made. When things settle down a bit more in NC, my father-in-law and I are going to spend a few days out at the Nantahala Village and drive the Tail of the Dragon. Always welcome to join in.
^ Ah, the joys of owning an FD! I think we can all say, "been there, done that." Doesn't help with your monetary pain though, does it?
Really looking forward to seeing the progress you have made. When things settle down a bit more in NC, my father-in-law and I are going to spend a few days out at the Nantahala Village and drive the Tail of the Dragon. Always welcome to join in.
Definitely down for that.
My very last near term project is AC. I have the RX8 condenser sitting in my garage. Just gotta fit and get the hoses made. It looks like I get can one line from Rock Auto for $15 that has a fitting I can cut off and re-use. The other line, I need to order new from Mazda which is about $70 before shipping from Ray Crowe. Kind of hard to swallow that once since I literally am cutting a fitting off of it to connect from the condenser back to the car. I should probably call some junk yards and see if they have it ...
So you are needing to get to the muffler shop to have the downpipe joined to the rest of the exhaust I assume. You may have had some wacky O2 readings with it not connected up, the sensor may have been reading some free air sneaking up into the downpipe. That is a better placement for the O2 sensor, too close and it will run too hot and error out/fail.
It looks like you could clock your compressor housing on the turbo so it's pointing straight up instead of towards the passenger side. That may make that IC plumbing a little simpler.
General rule of thumb is 11.5 AFR is safe at full throttle. More boost you may want to be richer, less boost you can be leaner. If you're seeing 11's on 7psi of boost you should be very safe.
I'm interested to see how it runs with the new setup!
Dale
Target AFR changes with load, the more the load, generally the richer the setup needs to be on pump gas.
I usually run a pump gas engine at 12.9 AFR at 0 psi and taper down to 10.8 AFR by 15 psi( and down to a 10.4 AFR by 18 psi, usually the max I will do on pump only).
It looks like I get can one line from Rock Auto for $15 that has a fitting I can cut off and re-use. The other line, I need to order new from Mazda which is about $70 before shipping from Ray Crowe. Kind of hard to swallow that once since I literally am cutting a fitting off of it to connect from the condenser back to the car. I should probably call some junk yards and see if they have it ...
I would buy whatever you possibly can at the salvage yard. No sense in buying a brand new line just to cut it up. Which lines are you needing? Are you talking about the two that connect to the condenser? You could probably get both of those from the salvage yard, I did. But the low side line was useless for me, ended up having to get one from an 03 Toyota Avalon. Then again, on your setup that RX-8 line might work for you too. Either way, I definitely wouldn't buy any of them new if you don't have to. Maybe those savings will help you keep the project cost below $40k lol.
I would buy whatever you possibly can at the salvage yard. No sense in buying a brand new line just to cut it up. Which lines are you needing? Are you talking about the two that connect to the condenser? You could probably get both of those from the salvage yard, I did. But the low side line was useless for me, ended up having to get one from an 03 Toyota Avalon. Then again, on your setup that RX-8 line might work for you too. Either way, I definitely wouldn't buy any of them new if you don't have to. Maybe those savings will help you keep the project cost below $40k lol.
the circle lines are the one I’m looking for. Drivers side is the one I get from rock auto. The passenger side one I can’t even find on eBay
Yeah I got both of those from the salvage yard, and I got a set from my buddy too, along with his condenser. Shouldn't be too hard to find since there are so many of them. Although that depends on the size of your city too I guess.
What part of NC? Did I already talk to you about Carolina Rotaries?
Yeah I got both of those from the salvage yard, and I got a set from my buddy too, along with his condenser. Shouldn't be too hard to find since there are so many of them. Although that depends on the size of your city too I guess.
What part of NC? Did I already talk to you about Carolina Rotaries?
So far I've had no luck with any salvage/junkyard in my area. They don't even have RX-8's, let alone RX-8 parts. I'm in Raleigh. I'm not familiar with Carolina Rotaries. The only rotary specialist I know of in NC is Rotorsports Racing. I'll search around a bit more but if nothing it local, when you add it travel time and the value of my time, $100 starts to seem like a fair trade. The hotter it gets, the fairer it looks!
