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I suspect in every build project, you reach that "WTF am I doing and what did I get myself into moment". I think I had that moment yesterday.
I drained the gas tank and the gas doesn't look bad, but it doesn't look good. It wasn't thick but it was hard to tell if the derbri in gas was from inside the tank of or the exterior paint/rust from the exterior near the drain plug. I remove the headlights and found the most hack job ever consisting of electrical tape and wire nuts. I also found that the drivers side of the radiator hanger/subframe had a pretty crappy "repair" as it's broken. I know this car was a salvage back in 2003 but whoever did the work did an awful job. I can see rust all over places that were clearly not factory welds. Both the coolant and windshield washer tanks are cracked too. Ugh.
Now I don't know if I should strip the car down to a rolling chassis and get the body inspected/repaired first OR drain/replace all fluids and try to see if the car will start even though I plan to replace this bridge ported motor with a rebuild along with a new transmission. My gut says I can get the car operational for maybe $7-10k, but to get the car the way I want it (i.e. show car worthy), I'm probably double that. Ugh.
From where you are starting, you will need to dump a lot of money in the car to get it "show worthy". Even to get to a stage that's drivable and reliable will not be inexpensive. I spent nearly $30k "updating" my fairly low mileage (65k) garaged FD. And that did not include a single turbo conversion or v-mount (it did include an IRP built reman, 99 spec conversion, and a couple other non-factory mods). **** adds up real quick (think i spent $3k on OEM parts alone).
If you're up for the (financial) challenge, i recommend taking care of any structural rust, replacing the hacked wiring with stock (used is ok if in good condition), and replace any and all rubber components (fuel and cooling). That should get you started towards having a fun and reliable driver
If you want a show car, i suggest you start with a better starting point. I believe Fritz has a low mileage R2 for around $20k. You probably wouldn't have to do much to that.
(and if you keep it, in addition to the above, replace the fuel sock and filter and get the injectors serviced)
I suspect in every build project, you reach that "WTF am I doing and what did I get myself into moment". I think I had that moment yesterday.
I drained the gas tank and the gas doesn't look bad, but it doesn't look good. It wasn't thick but it was hard to tell if the derbri in gas was from inside the tank of or the exterior paint/rust from the exterior near the drain plug. I remove the headlights and found the most hack job ever consisting of electrical tape and wire nuts. I also found that the drivers side of the radiator hanger/subframe had a pretty crappy "repair" as it's broken. I know this car was a salvage back in 2003 but whoever did the work did an awful job. I can see rust all over places that were clearly not factory welds. Both the coolant and windshield washer tanks are cracked too. Ugh.
Now I don't know if I should strip the car down to a rolling chassis and get the body inspected/repaired first OR drain/replace all fluids and try to see if the car will start even though I plan to replace this bridge ported motor with a rebuild along with a new transmission. My gut says I can get the car operational for maybe $7-10k, but to get the car the way I want it (i.e. show car worthy), I'm probably double that. Ugh.
Crappy Headlight wiring
More crappy headlight wiring
Broken radiator frame support
5 year old gas...
I think your wrong, I dont think it needs anything but a trans to drive it around the block. You are already talking about a bridge ported motor, but odds are the motor that is in the car now probably has years of life left.
That gas looks good, you need to go ahead and try to start the car, confirm the motor is good, confirm the trans is bad. Put a new trans in it, flush all fluids, confirm the brakes work as is, confirm the suspension isn't too bad and drive it around. By drive it around, that doesn't mean get into boost, i bet this car wouldn't see boost until 4000 anyways.
You are not going to hurt anything in the fuel system that you wouldn't already be replacing if you did that first. It WOULD suck if you got the injectors cleaned, new fp, new lines, new filter etc... just to have some big rust flake to come out of the fuel tank and mess all of that up.
Your first priority should be to drive the car around the block, and once you get the motor that's in the car now started, your car just increased in value.
Subscribed.
Good luck, fellow NC FD owner.
Looks like a lot of work ahead.
I'd definitely pull that fuel pump hanger out of the tank to inspect inside. I had a very similar story when I rehabilitated my roller.
Thanks for the advice. I think I've talked myself back off the ledge after chatting with another forum member. It appears from chatting with him, I got my car at a very good price even though it needs work. Based on the feedback here, it sounds like my order of operations should be:
Do what I can to get the car to start: "Fog the motor" with oil, put some sacrificial plugs in, and see if it starts as it stands today with the current fuel tank and pump
Do I bother to change the oil, coolant, etc. first?
I'm pretty sure the turbo is toast and needs a rebuild. Is there a way to use the Apexi controller to know when boost kicks in so I know not to exceed that RPM?
Not sure the brakes as it work very well so I might need to fix/replace brakes before I drive her around
Once we know it runs, then focus on the body
Strip everything out of the engine, inspect it, and get it to a rolling chassis
Get the engine bay sandblasted and painted black
Deal with any rust on the body
Fix any structural stuff (like the radiator support)
replace seals around windshields
Deal with Engine and Transmission
Even if this is a good bridge port motor, I don't know that I want bridge port for long term reliability. I can do a swap with Rotorsports Racing for a rebuilt street port motor for not much more than putting new seals on this engine (which I'm quite sure it will need)
Remove Meth/Water injection -- I have zero desire to deal with this
Get Turbo rebuilt (or replace if needed)
Flush all fluids, replace fuel pump, filter, tank
Deal with all the "Cosmetic/Less important stuff" inside and out
Rip out dynamat
See if A/C works (I would do it now, but I really don't want to deal with what might blow out or might be dead or built a nest in the vents)
Put factory headlights on (I have a used pair on the way)
Check factory wiring harness
etc.
Does this sound like a decent framework of a plan?
Quick question. How are those 6x9s mounted? Are they mounted directly to the plastic side panels? I know some may not like it, but I am looking for simple and if they are mounted directly the covering holes and not vibrating or anything, it may be what I am looking for. Some self tapping screws or whatever. I have a touring with map pockets. I bought r1 mounts and speaker covers, but 6x9 would be nice.
Quick question. How are those 6x9s mounted? Are they mounted directly to the plastic side panels? I know some may not like it, but I am looking for simple and if they are mounted directly the covering holes and not vibrating or anything, it may be what I am looking for. Some self tapping screws or whatever. I have a touring with map pockets. I bought r1 mounts and speaker covers, but 6x9 would be nice.
to be honest, I have no clue. The previous owner put them on there and haven’t had time to get to the interior bits. The stereo was not working when I got it because the water in the back destroyed the wiring and possibly the amp he had back there
Thx. I was just being to lazy to measure the opening vs the mounting measurements of the 6x9. Sucks about the water, but I am sure you will straighten things out.
FMIC - Front Mount Intercooler
AI - Auxiliary Injection, i.e. water/meth
Actually, FMIC is probably best setup for AIT (Air Intake Temp), but it blocks the radiator so you may have higher engine temps. High combustion chamber temps lead to detonation. To minimize detonation, you want as cool of a combustion chamber as possible. Do this by lowering the combustion wall temps (oil and water), intake temps (AIT and a rich air/fuel mix) and increasing fuel octane. If you have high AIT and/or high engine temps, you can help mitigate likelihood of detonation using AI. Methanol will lower your intake temps and water will raise your effective octane levels. Meth/water combo does a little of both, but neither as good as pure methanol (which is highly combustible BTW), or pure water. I am by no means an expert on this so do some research
All that said, if you don't plan to really push your car, detonation may not be a concern
This thing used to push somewhere close to 525WHP. Having had cars in the past with 550HP (BMW M5), 455HP (C7 Corvette), and a few in the 300’s, I think the sweet spot for me is around 300-350 at the wheels. This is a light car and since I don’t plan to drag race it, I don’t see the need to make any more than that unless there are massive torque numbers to be gained at higher HP. Owning the M5 and C7 made me realized pretty quickly that a street car with that much power is a total waste, especially since modern day TCS and DSC limit the power (to keep you alive). I turned those off in both cars at one point during the BMW and Corvette Driving schools and that much power gets a unruly (and unsafe) for the street. I’ve always preferred cars (and motorcycles) that are faster through a corner than in a straight line.
Do you guys think that the huge turbo is too big for the HP numbers I think I want? I’m sure it’s cheaper to rebuild than to buy a new one, but I also don’t want massive turbo lag either.
I'd get a smaller turbo if you want less than 400whp. An s36x turbo doesn't make the car as much fun as it should be if you aren't looking for more power.
I also have an e60 m5 (V10). An rx7 is way more fun to drive. The m5 is a nice cruiser with power when you want it. An rx7 with 350whp will kill it on a track.
I'd get a smaller turbo if you want less than 400whp. An s36x turbo doesn't make the car as much fun as it should be if you aren't looking for more power.
I also have an e60 m5 (V10). An rx7 is way more fun to drive. The m5 is a nice cruiser with power when you want it. An rx7 with 350whp will kill it on a track.
good to know. Any idea how much an s36x cost? I’m hoping I can at least rebuild this turbo and sell it vs just toss it. I had an F10 M5. My current daily is an Alfa Romeo Giulia (2.0 I4 Turbo). Just under 300HP with 306 lb-ft of torque. It’s a hoot to drive. The steering and chassis really are sublime on that car. I don’t miss the high HP cars at all.
BW s36x (I.e. s366, s363, etc) are low priced turbos, I'm guessing this is what you have due to the size you mentioned and age. I got an s366 brand new years ago for $750, if you rebuild it, I wouldn't plan to get more than $500 for it.
BW s36x (I.e. s366, s363, etc) are low priced turbos, I'm guessing this is what you have due to the size you mentioned and age. I got an s366 brand new years ago for $750, if you rebuild it, I wouldn't plan to get more than $500 for it.
I’ll have to check the turbo to see the model number. The previous owner said it was BW and is 67mm. How much smaller should I go. I googled the S360 series and it looks like they are a 60mm. Does 7mm make that big of a difference in spool up time that it would be worth it to get one vs. rebuild the one I have?
Also, what kind of HP can you make in this 13B (assuming I get a Street port) and still have it be a reliable long term motor?
I’ll have to check the turbo to see the model number. The previous owner said it was BW and is 67mm. How much smaller should I go. I googled the S360 series and it looks like they are a 60mm. Does 7mm make that big of a difference in spool up time that it would be worth it to get one vs. rebuild the one I have?
Also, what kind of HP can you make in this 13B (assuming I get a Street port) and still have it be a reliable long term motor?
The turbo is probably a S366, which is what I have on my car. I got mine brand new for about $650 shipped several years ago. The previous owner was probably making 500+ hp with it with the water injection thats on the car now at around 20+ psi maybe even on pump gas. This turbo is considered laggy and wont really start moving until between 3500-4000 rpm. If you try to get anywhere near 15psi without the water injection that's on the car then you will probably pop the motor.
You should probably put a socket on the compressor nut and see if you can get the turbo to spin, they are reverse threaded so be sure to turn it to the left.
You are getting ahead of your self again with thinking of getting the turbo rebuilt or a new turbo system. Get the car running and driving like it is now and then start changing the things you dont like.
The turbo is probably a S366, which is what I have on my car. I got mine brand new for about $650 shipped several years ago. The previous owner was probably making 500+ hp with it with the water injection thats on the car now at around 20+ psi maybe even on pump gas. This turbo is considered laggy and wont really start moving until between 3500-4000 rpm. If you try to get anywhere near 15psi without the water injection that's on the car then you will probably pop the motor.
You should probably put a socket on the compressor nut and see if you can get the turbo to spin, they are reverse threaded so be sure to turn it to the left.
You are getting ahead of your self again with thinking of getting the turbo rebuilt or a new turbo system. Get the car running and driving like it is now and then start changing the things you dont like.
Totally understood. I'm just trying to figure out long term planning. If this turbo is in fact no good, I don't know that I want to spend the money to rebuild it to get the car driving "as-is" vs putting a different turbo on there. I looked at the turbo as it's mounted and I see no markings on it that indicate manufacture or model though. The turbo spins with with socket in reverse (but not freely...there is a little resistance). Anything from these photos that I might be missing that could identify it?
FINALLY managed to pull the lid off the fuel tank to get to the fuel pump and I see more of a hack job. I see two fuel pumps. One is a Walbro and the other I think is the OEM. I posted photos to the RX7 group on Facebook and pretty much everyone said it's a hack job. Some people said the sheathing on isn't right for submerged in fuel applications and others have said the stock wiring probably should have melted by now.
verall though, it the tank looks to be in good condition. I think it's just sediment in there but I don't see any major signs of rust. I need to get the crap out of the tank to make sure.
Is it OK to open the drain plug and then just use a hose to rinse it out (and dilute what little gas it left in there)?
It's ok to open the gas tank drain, but i would try to syphon out as much gas as you can before you open the drain (i used a rattle syphon with good sucess). Not sure about spraying it down with water though. You'll need to make sure it is competely dry before you fill it back up.
You may also want to spray down the cover (and componants) with a degreaser
Can't comment on the fuel pumps, but based on the use of worm clamps and pictures of some of the other mods, it may be wrong. The fuel system should be designed to support the fuel flow required by the air flow through the motor. It appears that the car was designed for high HP goals (large single turbo, FMIC) at the possible trade-off to streetability and reliability. If you're goals are different than that, you may want to reasses the curent setup (induction, IC, fuel).
More progress today. The previous owner said the car wouldn't start (just get a single click) because it needed a new starter solenoid. I pulled the starter, wiped some crap off of it, connected her directly to the battery and the starter worked fine. Another forum member suggested I pick up a starter bypass button so I could start the car without having to turn the ignition. Great $15 tool. She looks a little rough and has some rust but for the time being, Ill keep her. Once the car is really ready to roll, I'll spend the $110 to get a reman one from Autozone or O'Reilly's. I put the starter back on, got in the car, and turned the key and sure enough, she spun. Next step is to pull the plugs and do the poor mans check for compression (use a regular compression gauge) just to see if it makes ANY compression. After that, I'll try to spray some starting fluid and see if it will fire up at all. The fuel pump is pulled until I can decide what I want to do with my setup. I don't wanna risk anything with the current setup (e.g set my garage or car on fire).
Here is a video of what she sounds like when I try to start:
Hmm... Doesn't sound right to me. (and I hope I'm wrong, or it's just how I hear the video.)
You can take a ratchet and socket, and manually turn the engine over and actually feel the compression too if you want.
It's been my experience that when the seals are stuck/damaged, that you can rotate the engine by ratchet very easily and not feel any compression.
I would definitely get some ATF in the engine and let it soak... but doesn't sound like any pulses in the video. (Maybe it's just weak, and I'm crazy... lol. )
Are you listening on phone or computer? It sounds a bit better on a computer with decent speakers. On my phone, all I hear is the starter. Going to try a compression test.
its hard to turn it manually. Not much room to get a full rotation with all the other bits in the engine in theyl way.
Ran my poor mans compression test today using a piston gauge. I posted to the FB group and got the collective feedback there but I know that not everyone up there knows what they are talking about since on person told me I had a leaky gauge because the readings were bouncing...haha
One rotor shows 60/60/30 and the other shows 60/60/60. This is a cold engine since using only the starter to turn the motor. Someone on FB said the 60/60/30 indicates it's a side deal that is either bad or stuck. Some people say put ATF in while others say ATF is a bad idea; they suggest Marvels Mystery Oil. I know you need a warm engine for a true test and this is more to see if there any problems, which there appear to be in at least one rotor.
07-20-18, 07:22 AM
