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I posted this up in the SakeBomb product development thread. The battery they are using in their kit is the regular ATX-30, which costs around $375. The HD version is more, or around $500-550, depending on where you buy it. In short, you will be amazed by the lightweight and power of the batteries and the install options are numerous, given the very small footprint. I have mine installed in the passenger bin, where I had my Optima. I also retrofitted my battery tray hold down to accept the much smaller Antigravity. If you want to spend some extra money. Antigravity offers a very nicely made mounting kit:
The HD is a heavy-duty version of the ATX-30. While the HD weighs a bit more than the standard ATX-30 (7.81 versus 5.75 lbs.), it shares the same case footprint (6.5 x 5 x 6.8 inches (LxWxH), has more power (970 versus 880 CCA), and more reserve Amp-hours (48 versus 32).
Why consider the HD over the standard ATX-30? The standard ATX-30's RESTART technology serves as a power cutoff for the battery, using an algorithm to continuously monitor the health and voltage of the battery. When the battery sees a continuous drop in voltage, it will automatically shut off the battery somewhere between 12.45 - 12.70 volts, sending it to a zero voltage condition as a failsafe. While the RESTART feature ensures your battery will have enough power to subsequently start your car, the RESTART feature essentially renders your battery unusable when it triggers the RESTART function.
I know this as I ordered a regular ATX-30 and recently installed it in my car. I assumed the battery would come fully charged, but Antigravity tells me that all lithium batteries drop to a stable, lower voltage level around 13.1 volts. So, my battery arrived with a little under 13 volts, and when I keyed the ignition on the car to calibrate my SpeedHut gauges, the battery triggered the RESTART function, sending the battery to zero volts and shutting down the car. While this was just an inconvenience as I wasn't driving at the time, the RESTART feature shut down could become an issue when driving.
I called Antigravity and the techs explained to me that the more appropriate battery for an FD, particularly one that has been modified, is the HD version, which does not include the RESTART function - it does include a nifty battery capacity indicator. The HD allows for deeper discharge cycles of the battery without the fear of the battery triggering an auto cut off function. Per the techs, the regular ATX-30 is intended for motorcycle use, although they have seen the battery successfully used on cars with small 4 cylinder engines. On the other hand, they state the HD version of the ATX-30 is intended for use on modified performance autos and has been successfully used on cars such as Corvettes and the FD.
So, my regular ATX-30 is on its way back to Antigravity for an upgrade to the HD version. Lastly, like you point out, you must buy (if you are going to use on) a lithium specific trickle charger. I got the one recommended by Antigravity, the CTEK (56-926) LITHIUM US 12 Volt Fully Automatic LiFePO4 Battery Charger. From Amazon, it was around $85 shipped.
@David Hayes thanks for the detailed battery info. As much as I would love to, I can’t do a $500 battery right now. Did you consider any other LI based batteries other than the anti-grav?
^ I completely understand. It's a lot of money to drop into a battery. I reviewed other brands but went with Antigravity due to the good reviews and customer service. There are now a number of lithium brands out there so the cost will come down.
Yep, I will be at DGRR this year. Look forward to catching up.
We talked some in PM about the Miata battery. I've been running one for probably 10 years at this point with no problems. I have a Blitz front mount and there's room in the engine bay with that FMIC to run the Miata battery.
Never had any problems with it being too small or whatever. Remember, the battery is really there for cranking and starting your car and running things when the engine is off. Once the car starts the alternator handles the electrical supply.
My battery will not have enough gusto in about 2-3 weeks of sitting to start the car, but I think that partially may be a small current draw on my car. But, with any small battery the reserve for letting the car sit won't be as good as the giant stock battery.
The Miata battery has rubber hoses that allow it to vent to the outside if you mount it in the car (on a Miata it's in the trunk), it's relatively small and lightweight, and it's cheap and available at most any parts store. I think the one I get is for an NA Miata (early 90's), I think the NB is the same.
We talked some in PM about the Miata battery. I've been running one for probably 10 years at this point with no problems. I have a Blitz front mount and there's room in the engine bay with that FMIC to run the Miata battery.
Never had any problems with it being too small or whatever. Remember, the battery is really there for cranking and starting your car and running things when the engine is off. Once the car starts the alternator handles the electrical supply.
My battery will not have enough gusto in about 2-3 weeks of sitting to start the car, but I think that partially may be a small current draw on my car. But, with any small battery the reserve for letting the car sit won't be as good as the giant stock battery.
The Miata battery has rubber hoses that allow it to vent to the outside if you mount it in the car (on a Miata it's in the trunk), it's relatively small and lightweight, and it's cheap and available at most any parts store. I think the one I get is for an NA Miata (early 90's), I think the NB is the same.
Dale
Thanks, @DaleClark . Ill check those out. I'd really like to keep in engine bay. I did some quick googling and found some AGM Miata batteries that say they are sealed but then they have the port for venting in the photo.
Thanks, @DaleClark . Ill check those out. I'd really like to keep in engine bay. I did some quick googling and found some AGM Miata batteries that say they are sealed but then they have the port for venting in the photo.
Sealed agm is the only way to go if you were considering a MX5 batt.
did you have to hack up your bin to make it fit? Did you fabricate a bracket or buy one?
No cutting of the bin whatsoever. Cut up a Couple pieces of rubber horse stall mats from tractor supply to raise the battery slightly, then standard battery j hooks from advance auto, used a universal plastic bracket for a while but upgraded to that Eddie Motorsports billet hold down recently. Got it from summit racing and cut and rewelded it to fit the miata battery, it was pricey, super sturdy/trick looking, but not totally necessary.
No cutting of the bin whatsoever. Cut up a Couple pieces of rubber horse stall mats from tractor supply to raise the battery slightly, then standard battery j hooks from advance auto, used a universal plastic bracket for a while but upgraded to that Eddie Motorsports billet hold down recently. Got it from summit racing and cut and rewelded it to fit the miata battery, it was pricey, super sturdy/trick looking, but not totally necessary.
So if your battery physically mounted to the bin or chassis that in the event of a rollover or accident, it doesn't come flying out as projectile?
Just to the bins, with some metal reinforcement underneath the bins on the hooks. Might not pass tech at a track, but you grab ahold of the battery, you'd rip the bins out of the back of the car before the battery comes loose. To each his own whether you're comfortable with it or not. If I ever do a track day I may do something different like cut the bottom out of the bin.
I need some guidance on my AST. I am deciding whether or not to eliminate my AST by getting a Thermostat Housing with the Flange on it and then getting the Banzai Racing Billet AL Filler Neck. I'm not sure how things would be plumbed in that situation. If I did that, I'd have a nipple on the Banzai Filler and the Original Nipple on the Thermostat Housing. I then have my overflow tank to connect and the coolant return pipe the comes out of my Greddy Radiator into the engine. I read the AST Delete posts and it appears you are supposed to plug some nipples, but in my setup, I'm wondering if I would connect the Banzai nipple to the overflow and then Radiator return pipe nipple to the original nipple on the thermostat housing?
Conversely, I found a place to mount my current AST but I recall reading somewhere that the AST is supposed to be the highest point in the system but there is no way I can mount the AST somewhere where it's higher than my Thermostat housing. Thoughts?
The two photos show the nipple on the radiator and my current thermostat housing and one shows the tentative AST location.
The AST you have is a generic Greddy one that may have more nipples than it needs. It's not designed for the FD, it's a generic part. It's nicely made, though.
So, plumbing -
- Replace thermostat housing with one that lets you bolt on a fill neck. Bolt on the Banzai fill neck. Nipple on Banzai adapter goes to overflow tank since it's by the radiator cap.
- The nipple on the thermostat housing itself either needs to go to an upper nipple on the AST (if you keep it) or connected to the nipple on the metal radiator hose. Or you can block both nipples off.
There's really no good reason that you need that hose, people in the past have kept the hose after eliminating the AST since it's so much easier to just tie the 2 hoses together than remove and block off both ports.
If you do keep the AST I think the bigger thing is it's higher than the radiator which is most anywhere. I don't know if I'd put a 200 degree hot tank of water right by your intake though - that ain't helping intake air temps much.
Also in the picture I see you have a silicone radiator hose with standard hose clamps on it. Over time the serrations on that clamp can eat into the silicone. I like either using OEM spring-style radiator hose clamps or Norma Torro clamps. The N-T clamps you can get on Amazon, they work great and don't bite into the hose. They are also small and not obnoxious like some clamps.
that is correct! the 2006-2020 miatae just run a 51R, which is also an option.
the AGM Miata batteries I’ve found have a vent tube on them. I posted on the Amazon page for one and got the reply below. However, odyssey batteries don’t have a vent tube and they are AGM. Confused.
"A(absorbed) G(glass) M(material) batteries are still lead acid batteries that have an absorbent material inside so as not to leak liquid. They still need to vent any buildup of hydrogen gas that comes about during the charge/discharge cycles. Hydrogen gas is highly explosive when it mixes with the oxygen in the air. Your Miata should have vent tubes in the trunk that connect to the battery and pass through the body of the trunk to the outside. This prevents any gas buildup inside the trunk of the car, which could otherwise, be deadly."
the AGM Miata batteries I’ve found have a vent tube on them. I posted on the Amazon page for one and got the reply below. However, odyssey batteries don’t have a vent tube and they are AGM. Confused.
"A(absorbed) G(glass) M(material) batteries are still lead acid batteries that have an absorbent material inside so as not to leak liquid. They still need to vent any buildup of hydrogen gas that comes about during the charge/discharge cycles. Hydrogen gas is highly explosive when it mixes with the oxygen in the air. Your Miata should have vent tubes in the trunk that connect to the battery and pass through the body of the trunk to the outside. This prevents any gas buildup inside the trunk of the car, which could otherwise, be deadly."
i'm not sure my first post was clear, the 1989-2005 miata had a miata size battery in the trunk, with vent tubes. the 2006 to 2020 miata has a 51R, which is a similar size, but its in the engine bay.
i bought a golf cart battery for mine, its a 1U something, 350cca, which is comparable to the stock battery, and it was $40
Regular hose clamps just have slits cut into them that the worm drive engages. These slits cut into the silicone and tear it up over time.
Norma Torro clamps have raised ridges pressed into them that the worm drive runs on. They are much more friendly to the hoses.
They come in VERY specific sizes, you will want to measure the size of the hose and get the right size range. Not a super pressing thing but a good idea.
@DaleClark i found a better (?) place for my AST I think.
Ended up with an odessey PC925. Fits perfect in the bin on its side. It literally doesn’t move at all. Gonna wire it all up tomorrow and I can reuse my existing battery hold down.
For every two steps forward, there always seems to be one step back...
Forward Progress: My install of the Greddy VMount kit is D-O-N-E minus air conditioning. I also finished relocating the battery to the rear bin. I fired her up and used the Lisle funnel to burp the system (totally worth $26 on amazon). The only outstanding wait now is to get the flange welded on pipe for the Synapse BOV (it's at a local fabricator/welding shop). Speaking of Synapse, they might make a good product, but their support sucks in all aspects of the word. The BOV came with no directions and the only ones they have online are for the first version of the BOV. I have the 3rd gen and it's been out for like 8 years yet they still can't update the manual or provide one. Weak. I called their 800 number, got voicemail. I called again, got a woman who was the same woman who handled my order. She said no one was available to speak but the said she'd call someone else and call me back. It' been a week. Crickets. I opened a ticket on their website. No response. Crickets. I leveraged Facebook to a least get some other owners to tell me how to wire it up. The BOV has 2 nipples and they said to T them together off the vacuum hose from the intake manifold. The flange is also very small...maybe 32mm vs being a standard v-mount. If I had to do it over again, I'd go with a Tial that uses a standard v-mount flange since you can get pipe with flanges welded on already on Amazon. My spidey sense thinks Synapse is either going under or just don't care about their customers like a Tial or Turbosmart to provide any semblance of support.
Backwards progress: I removed the drivers side fender liner for the battery relocation project and saw where the car was obviously hit at some point. The "fix" looks like a backyard weld job at best. I'll def. have the shop I use to paint the car fix it properly when it's time. Also, when I started the car, my Apexi AVCR wouldn't start up. Turns out at some point the harness that connects to the solenoid touched the downpipe, melted, and shorted it out. I figured it out after I rewired the AVCR connections to the PFC thinking it was bad wiring only to see and smell a wire melting. Now my AVCR buttons light up, but the LCD does not. I pulled it apart and I see a resistor that looks like its melted. Someone on Facebooked pulled their AVCR and it doest have a resistor but he has the silver/blue one and I have the black one so I could be a design difference. Not sure I have the patience or time to see if that resistor is the only thing that needs replacing or if something else on the board is toast. Also, part of the vMount project was to be able to get the car back to OEM look and the OEM nose I have doesn't quite mount. On the side that was clearly repaired, there is not gap for the headlights to pop up. Another body shop project.
So now what: @Molotovman said I should just wire my solenoid to the PFC harness and use the PFC to control boost. Obviously not as advanced as AVCR but something. I haven't been able to find any DIY on how to do this. I have found that pin 4U and 4V on the harness is Wastegate control and turbo pre-control. He said to connect one of them (not sure which) to the solenoid and ground the other wire to the solenoid. I am bit confused because the PFC boost kit that Apexi sells comes with the same solenoid but also another map sensor because the 2nd sensor is supposedly used by PFC boost control. I have this sensor already with my AVCR but I don't know how the PFC will behave without the 2nd MAP sensor connected since I don't have the proper harness to wire the sensor up like the boost kit does.
Apparently @IRPerformance has been wiring PFCs like this to work with the EFR waste gates. I'm hoping @arghx might have some insight since I've seen him tagged in a lot of PFC posts. I don't want to be the first person to figure this out with a single turbo setup and external (turbo smart) wastegate. Bryan at Rotorsports racing said they only have ever used the PFC boost control with twins but never singles so I also worry that the person tuning my car doesn't have experience with this particular setup. Bryan admittedly is old school and likes less electronics in the mix. He suggested I just get a manual boost controller from Turbo Smart for like $75, install it myself, and he can dial it in when we (eventually) dyno tune the car next month. I need this thing running for DGRR!
The red is clearly the donor piece used in the repair. The fact it's even attached is amazing because it looks like crap
Pretty sure the resistor either exploded or got hot and melted some compound used to hold the resistor over that integrated circuit in the AVCR
Managed to re-use my battery tie down. The PC925 couldn't fit any better in the bit.
This is where my BOV will be welded on. Notice how small the flange diameter is relative to the pipe.
Ouch! Yeah, that definitely does look like the culprit as to why it's not coming on. Yeah, you can either use the PFC for boost control or just put a manual controller on for now. That AVC-R can probably be fixed.
I'd get some sort of rubber boots or something for the positive terminals on the battery. Since it's in a storage bin you don't want something tossed in there by someone who doesn't know there's a battery in there and having it short out. Just good practice to always cover/protect a live positive connection.
Ouch! Yeah, that definitely does look like the culprit as to why it's not coming on. Yeah, you can either use the PFC for boost control or just put a manual controller on for now. That AVC-R can probably be fixed.
I'd get some sort of rubber boots or something for the positive terminals on the battery. Since it's in a storage bin you don't want something tossed in there by someone who doesn't know there's a battery in there and having it short out. Just good practice to always cover/protect a live positive connection.
Got some pics of the whole V-mount in the car?
Dale
A manual controller would be a hell of lot easier than messing with my already hacked up wiring harness to connect the solenoid. What your thoughts on a manual boost controller vs electronic. Here are some pics...not the best but all I got for now.
You know my thoughts on the manual vs. electronic. It’s 2020 and wiring up the solenoid is easy enough. Do it right, once, and enjoy being able to turn your boost up or down with the PFC commander.
You know my thoughts on the manual vs. electronic. It’s 2020 and wiring up the solenoid is easy enough. Do it right, once, and enjoy being able to turn your boost up or down with the PFC commander.
EXACTLY. I like Bryan. Great engine builder. Very satisfied with the rebuild he did on my engine. Unfortunately, a small business owner can't control the work your employees are doing 100% of the time. I'll just leave it at that. Bryan is also old school when it comes to electronics, as DJ mentioned. He talked me into a "MBC" which is just a turbosmart boost tee. It is very simple to just plug your EFR solenoid to the precontrol plug and use the PowerFC for boost control, once you get your settings right. Molotovman is who gave the insight, info and some baseline settings on how to do this ironically. BTW, DJ if you are looking for a super simple temporary setup, I think I still have the TS boost tee rotorsports installed, I'll sell it cheap if you want it, haha.
Last edited by aplscrambles; Feb 26, 2020 at 09:38 PM.
