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Costas,
Years ago I made a CWR replica intercooler using the Ronin duct, and a Bell Intercoolers (Corky Bell) custom unit. I just chose the right size core and drew what I wanted in Illustrator, and they made it with end tanks to my spec. It was super nice and reasonably priced. The fin density was way more than the Spearco-based original I'd borrowed from Crispy. Ultimately sold it, but its a good resource to have made whatever you want with minimal effort. I Designed my own V-mount IC/Radiator at some point, and was going to have them and Ron Davis make them, but then the Greddy came out and it was just easier. Here's a post on it:
i had reached out to Ron davis a while back to get a custom radiator made that would have the same mounting as the oem but inlet/outlet to be on the same side and possibly made it wider than stock so i can close my side gaps while increasing the radiator surface. I dont recall what i was quoted for but it wasn’t prohibitive but it felt that it wouldnt have been a major improvement to the system since everything else were to remain the same. so instead i made the shroud which improved the cooling performance drastically but the overall system is not optimized.
i will have to choose different components so i can redesign the whole system. Everything from mounting the intercooler, the intake to the radiator and fans . The last few replies sparked my interest to address this issue and improve it once and for all and stop saying to myself that its good enough for now.
Here's the design for the radiator—it was made with angled end tanks so i could get the most room for a bigger IC, which would've been deeper than the GReddy. I'll see If I still have that plan too.
I believe Race Only in Australia is working to make an FMIC kit and retain A/C while using the chase bays radiator. They race their cars and have made the FMIC work vs Vmount. As you can see below, unless you push an IC past it’s rating (which can obviously still work), you run out of room for a vmount real fast.
im a big FMIC fanboy here is what I’m doing. In both cases I have the rx8 AC condensor between the IC and the chase bays rad. 950hp garret core for the 3 rotor. nothing this big would fit without doing my own end tanks, all premade ones I could find with this rating were wider and ate into the oil cooler space unless I did rear entry end tanks. 3 rotor. Will be ducted and prevent air from escaping before hitting the radiator. 600hp (piston) treadstone intercooler. Only one of theirs that would be the right width, I cut off the inflect/outlet and welded on the elbows to save space. Also has the chase bays radiator and will be fully sealed.
This is all pretty useless without AIT data anyway. I'd test air temp at the current filter while moving, and air temp at any proposed intake location. It might not be as different as we think.
With the methanol injection already being used, this might all be a moot point anyway. Sure lower AITs are better, but redoing the entire front end of a car just for a few degrees lower really might not be worth it.. Most of the full-on race cars I've seen cut the headlight bucket, or run an open filter.
Imagine how much cheaper it would be to just run a little more meth... The HKS stuff is pretty good, even if the fans are low
This is all pretty useless without AIT data anyway. I'd test air temp at the current filter while moving, and air temp at any proposed intake location. It might not be as different as we think.
With the methanol injection already being used, this might all be a moot point anyway. Sure lower AITs are better, but redoing the entire front end of a car just for a few degrees lower really might not be worth it.. Most of the full-on race cars I've seen cut the headlight bucket, or run an open filter.
Imagine how much cheaper it would be to just run a little more meth... The HKS stuff is pretty good, even if the fans are low
its only a matter of time for the low hanging fans to be destroyed. While i did solve that issue with what i think its ideal given the circumstances but if i am going to re-do the intercooler i am planning to do a larger radiator both in width and length with a similar shroud . I no longer have the fan multiple speed provision so i had to stick to one speed fans.
i will see if theres a front clip i could use locally and design an intercooler kit that would be my vision of the ideal setup that will be loosely based on the hks kit
yeah i dont think the greddy v-mount is really appropriate for my setup. it is indeed going backwards. What i was trying to say was that as an overall out of the box package i would say its pretty comparable to the HKS. In appearance sure the HKS appears superior with the much larger core etc but supposedly the HKS is also rated for 400 or so hp. I think @Copeland managed to burst the hks intercooler on a GTX42 turbo?
I think its time to go to the drawing board and make a custom one from scratch, including a much larger surface area radiator
I popped the HKS intercooler on a GTX4294R turbo at around 21-25psi. It really wasn't doing a great job anyway, IATs were sky high.
given the available nose space, unless tremendously re-engineered NO intercooler is going to properly get it done.
the Greddy V mount core is 647 cubic inches. my core is 784.
if we relate power to core displacement using an average relationship from Garrett's site, then correct for rear wheel power and then correct for rotary V piston we get .62 rw rotary hp per cubic inch.
Greddy 647 X ..62 = 401 rotary rwhp at 1.5 psi pressure drop
HC intercooler 784 X .62 = 486 rotary rwhp
as you can see, our IC cores are a bit on the light side. of course all of these numbers have a bit of wiggle in them but they are helpful.
according to my 1996 Spearco Intercooler materials a very good intercooler can remove 67% of the temperature rise from ambient. ambient being at the airfilter not outside the car. i do have two Spal puller fans on the backside of my core and my core is sealed to the duct.
here's a recent run showing the cooling dynamics:
at the end of this 3rd gear pull at 2625 altitude my actual (thermocouple measured) air out of the turbo was 264.4 F and my IAT was 77 F. my turbo is a highly efficient G40-1150 and was loafing off the wastegate spring at 15.1 psi but was making 539 rwhp. air temperature at my air filter was 105.
of course we are going to do the math:
264.4 minus 105 produces a temp rise of 159.6 F.... if my IC was 67% efficient, which i doubt, the IC would have reduced the IAT by 106.9 leaving me at 105 plus 52.66 or 157.66 F IAT. and that is assuming i have top flight IC efficacy. (probably not)
BUT, my actual IAT was (and again this is a real temp generated by a thermocouple) SEVENTY SEVEN degrees.
157.66 minus 77 =s 80.66 F further cooling from wonderful methanol.
106.9 from the intercooler.... maybe
80.66 from the methanol... probably low.
this is all taking place at 15.1 psi. guess what happens to the temp coming out of the compressor at 20 or 25 psi... it will have a "4" on the front end. then do the numbers as to your real IAT. is it any wonder we can have problems considering gasoline autoignites around 450F?
after fully evaluating 3 other IC cores in 2022 my conclusion is that the answer to healthy engine dynamics lies in the proper application of AI to the system.
i was running two M15 old school nozzles. each is capable of 945 CC/Min at 100 psi. if you note the graph, the green sawtooth (pulse pump, high sample rate) is maxxing around 65 and bottoming around 25 so my average delivery was much less than the 1890. i had tried the ProMeth trick nozzles and my system was showing 150 psi. my IATs were 200... hmm, switched back to the old school.... something was amiss w the PM nozzles. when i get some time i will return them for evaluation.
BTW, porting is a significant factor re IATs... lower the system restriction, lower the compressor charge air temp. i just added a porting tech section to my site.
Crazy you popped the HKS core, I just spent good money getting one. Seems like a really good piece, not many tube and fin cores on the market.
Every single turbo car has the same IAT struggles we have, and tons of people are making huge power on 600x300x100 cores. Our front space isn't that restrictive if you have a 99 or aftermarket bumper. A heat exchanger (oil cooler, intercooler, radiator,) will only pass 1/3rd of its frontal space in air volume. As long as the opening in the bumper is 1/3rd or larger than the exchanger area, you're good to go. Turbos, intercoolers and intake temps are the same struggle for any platform this isn't new science.
in 1975 Roger Penske wanted to try and use the 917/30 to break the closed course speed record at Talladega.
after melting a few engines, they called Porsche. Porsche knew that they needed to keep the temps under control for the 2 minute lap, and designed an intercooler setup.
they beat AJ Foyt's 217mph, with a 221mph speed...
given the available nose space, unless tremendously re-engineered NO intercooler is going to properly get it done.
I am currently looking for a front clip or borrow a car that can stay at my place for some time, possibly during the winter, anyone looking for a free storage spot in up north in jersey in my garage let me know . I am determined to fix the intercooler issue and redesign something from scratch..
and depending on how well i succeed i might offer it for sale. i have some concepts in mind that they wont only fix the intercooler and the intake issue but also improve the radiator/and the infamous radiator fans that are associated with the HKS kit.
There are some upgrades, all of them are actually in progress but i should have some completed stuff for November and somehow i have managed to be in Europe for the 4th time this year so I am hoping that i will be able to address some things that have been on my mind for a while.
I am switching the OEM waterpump to the Meziere water pump but i needed a mounting solution.
As i like to make my library of parts larger I have modelled the meziere water pump along with a bracket to go with it.
the Meziere provided bracket is a 4140 CRS .12" thick.
I have decided to make this in 3/16" thick 304 CRES. Similar(ish) to the Meziere Bracket.
The mounting point will probably be at the cross bar by the intercooler. I will 3d print the pump and the bracket in Cyprus and confirm fitment first
I purchased the sakebomb garage EWP water pump block off plate. That thing is gorgeous. I also bought the thermostat delete kit BUT there's a lot to be desired from that.
The Sakebomb thermostat delete requires you use the oem Spring and plate (for the dual pass) soI had ordered an OEM thermostat but I must say I was surprised with my findings for a few things
I ordered two OEM thermostats from 2 different vendors from the US. Both of them came in the same package and it was the same thermostat
I thought that was strange because the dual pass plate on the bottom of the thermostat is removable on the OEM thermostat and I needed that part to use with the sakebomb thermostat delete part.
So something changed. Did not exactly know what but whatever i figured i will destroy the one so i can get the plate and the spring. No big deal.
One thing i noticed though is that the dual pass will not even come close to the cavity on the water pump housing. Also, the seal was pretty loose.
Whatever the seal i can somehow make it work but it is an "OEM" thermostat. The dual pass cavity is not being plugged. So it doesn't serve the purpose as the dual pass thermostat.
I was browsing the YJ and I came across the actual OEM thermostat that I am used to seeing for the last 20 years. So i figured let me order that and see how it is in comparison.
So the thermostat sold by the mazda USA is different. Markings , C-clip on the bottom for the dual pass etc.
I assumed that Mazda perhaps sent me a thermostat for a different model
I have come to find out that this is actually a Re-boxed Motorad Thermostat. Sorry Mazda USA but you Effed UP on this one ! So anyone looking for an OEM thermostat, be aware that this is what you will be getting from Mazda USA
Anyhow, since i did not like the Sakebomb kit i thought let me re-design this and make the dual pass actually work.
I was planning on making the whole thing as kit with a purchased spring and a C-clip and only make the plate. I calculated the OEM and the Motorad spring rates (they are very close) but what was the point. I am not making a bunch of them so i figured i might as well use the parts I have
So the initial plan was to machine this and make it a 2-piece construction. I did however change my mind and i will be 3d printing this in 316 Stainless Steel. I do have quite a bit experience with 3d printing but i don't have any experience with Metal 3D printing. This is obviously a paid service but i am curious to see how it will come out.
@Howard Coleman This post is for you. Your words inspired me to finally pull the trigger and make this change. You were right all along... !
I have decided to address the issue with the poor intake and improve my intercooler altogether.
I have teamed up with BELL for this one. So the idea is to "replicate" the mounting and the basic shape of the HKS V mount. It will be significantly shorter so i can squeeze the intake on the side, pull some cold air from the filter and also cool my charge more with this beastly intercooler. I have removed the dimensions because it is not my drawing and we have many changes, so possibly the dimensions might change until we finalize it, but i kept the 6" core dimension..
Wow, 6" thick??!!
I'm surprised such a thickness can be used in an air-to-air design. Would have thought the air velocity would slow down too much but what do I know.
Coolers lose effectiveness at something like the square of their depth. Would you mount a 3" core, and then another 3" one behind that? No, because the 2nd cooler wouldn't do much. I honestly think you're better off with the larger surface area intercooler and an engine bay intake. The extra heat will bleed out though the larger intercooler surface. Hell, just run a hood scoop isn't it a track car?
So the thermostat sold by the mazda USA is different. Markings , C-clip on the bottom for the dual pass etc.
I assumed that Mazda perhaps sent me a thermostat for a different model
I have come to find out that this is actually a Re-boxed Motorad Thermostat. Sorry Mazda USA but you Effed UP on this one ! So anyone looking for an OEM thermostat, be aware that this is what you will be getting from Mazda USA
its been this way for years, the 9U means Mazda USA is supplying an aftermarket part. in the rest of the world they seem to have some kind of rules, and only sell you the correct part
Coolers lose effectiveness at something like the square of their depth. Would you mount a 3" core, and then another 3" one behind that? No, because the 2nd cooler wouldn't do much. I honestly think you're better off with the larger surface area intercooler and an engine bay intake. The extra heat will bleed out though the larger intercooler surface. Hell, just run a hood scoop isn't it a track car?
it is a street car.
To answer your question, it's all relative. If you can get enough air pressure for the air to pass through you can have a 6" core or a 106" core. it all depends what you are capable of pushing. I am planning to increase the pressure with ducting but whether that would be enough it is to be determined. I mean the current HKS core is 4".
Is it easier to increase the surface area instead? Sure. but in this situation I can't do it easily. so i cant have my cake and eat it too so i am trying to figure out a best of both worlds scenario. It might be a complete failure, or a great success. Well one way to find out !
its been this way for years, the 9U means Mazda USA is supplying an aftermarket part. in the rest of the world they seem to have some kind of rules, and only sell you the correct part
I did not know but thanks for that.. I dont even remember the last time i used an OEM thermostat
Wow, 6" thick??!!
I'm surprised such a thickness can be used in an air-to-air design. Would have thought the air velocity would slow down too much but what do I know.
This is what was recommended by Bell after discussing my project to them. We have made several changes the drawing i have posted a couple of days ago but we are ready to start manufacturing i believe.
And if it doesnt work, oh well! I will re-use the HKS until i figure out a better option
I am also planning on using K-thermocouples on both end tanks to check the efficiency.
i have always experimented with stuff and sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t but this is how you learn.
This is what was recommended by Bell after discussing my project to them. We have made several changes the drawing i have posted a couple of days ago but we are ready to start manufacturing i believe.
And if it doesnt work, oh well! I will re-use the HKS until i figure out a better option
I am also planning on using K-thermocouples on both end tanks to check the efficiency.
i have always experimented with stuff and sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t but this is how you learn.
I actually had this discussion with Bell and with proper ducting and the vented hood and they said that it didn't seem to be necessary since the application is primarily high(er) speeds.
I am not opposed to the idea to add a fan to the intercooler if its needed
There are a few road cars here running fans on the intercooler. You'll definitely want to keep that divider between the radiator and the intercooler so you're not pulling up hot air.
Definitely interested in the results, heat is the enemy here
There are a few road cars here running fans on the intercooler. You'll definitely want to keep that divider between the radiator and the intercooler so you're not pulling up hot air.
Definitely interested in the results, heat is the enemy here
The divider is definitely staying.
In my next year plans i am planning to design a custom radiator that will allow me to widen the radiator so it reaches both side mounts , extend it so it will reach the bumper (no front gap) but also to redesign the divider so i will get rid of the cutout for the hot coolant in as i am planning to relocate it on the back side. I am debating whether i should get a radiator mount Meziere pump or stick to the one i have .
As for the road cars, i completely understand the need for the intercooler fan.
I do not currently have a provision to power an electric fan (PDM problems) but after i shuffle my light power outputs around i might be able to have an extra power output and find a fan that wont draw too much power (less than 15A). Thats assuming i will be running the car at slow speeds in the street, which it is a very possible scenario with my car.
07-13-23, 07:23 PM
. I am determined to fix the intercooler issue and redesign something from scratch..
