7_rocket

iTrader: (6)

More pics, please. Any updates?

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

Some updates and upgrades

First of all i want to thank @Carlos Iglesias for his thermal imaging support and feedback. I did start my thermal project with a Top-don Tc005 thermal camera. while it was highly rated, it was nowhere near as nice as Carlo's Flir pictures. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction dude!

The flir cameras have this very nice feature where the pictures automatically upload on their cloud-based software so i can access them remotely. A friend from Cyprus was visiting me here in the States. So i had asked him to bring the Flir thermal camera with him to Cyprus and to go take some pictures of my car so i could start troubleshooting my overheating issue.

Picture 1 and 2 were taken only a few seconds from each other. it did strike me as odd that the radiator outlet was actually warmer than the inlet despite me the small difference. Sure the fans are not running at that moment and the car is not moving. I didnt expect a temperature drop but its far from the heat source so you would expect that it would at least be the same...



I did change the scale on the computer. While it does decrease the image quality it at least pointed out where the issue is.





The Radiator appears to be suspect. I had tried the car with just distilled water and some coolant that was in the engine when i had replaced the water pump. The issue seemed that it went away but only came back when i had added the right amount of coolant.
So the radiator is due for a replacement. so we can test it again hopefully before i hit the track.


I have been entertaining the idea to finally switch to an EWP but i never pulled the trigger because it is an unknown territory to me.
A few of the questions i have had:
Can i get rid of the water pump housing with the manifold several companies make ?
or do i need to keep the water pump housing with a water pump block off plate? this option makes the filler neck situation easier.

I quickly determined that the only way around for my needs was to do the block off plate because if i were to use that manifold that eliminates the water pump housing, i would have to relocate the alternator. Well i have nowhere else to mount it since my A/C and P/S are still on the car.
There are plenty of options out there including the possibility of making my own. But i must say that i did like the sakebomb option more than the others. What i did not like about the sakebomb option was the thermostat delete kit. While there's probably nothing wrong with it i feel it could have been made a lot better.



So i have the pdm wired to the car with pretty much endless possibilities on how to program a water pump like that. More freedom than with the conventional controller that companies like Davies Craig provide. Nothing against Davies Craig pump or controller but i can have a plethora of triggers and inputs to make this pump run the way i want. (Meanwhile i have not hooked it up, i have not even mounted the water-pump on the car so i hope i am not going to regret it by saying this).

And this brings me to the next question.
What pump do I get? I do not know anything about the electric water pumps other than replacing a few stock ones over the years.

The only thing that i know for sure is that the current draw of any pump i will get, it needs to be under 15A. I have wired a provision for an electric water pump on the pdm and it is on a 15A channel.
The reason why i did that on a 15A and not anything higher is because the intention was to get the Davies Craig as part of the sakebomb kit (or others) as they primarily use that pump. The DC pump only draws 10A.

my good friend and tuner J.Renna suggested that the OEM bmw pumps is a great option and they seem to last a very long time. it is an OEM component it am sure it has significant more research time than a motorsports/aftermarket one. They are made by Pierburg and their current draw is a whooping 35A. While it would have probably been the best choice to go with that, i can't afford 35A of the current draw with my existing system and i am not about to re-wire the car for an electric water pump.
I have been researching the options and the Meziere pumps came to my attention. Sure i have seen the brand somewhere in the past; people rant and raved about it but because i wasnt looking for an electric water pump, i kinda ignored it.
I spent a few days researching the options (and there are a whole bunch from Meziere) and i did narrow my options down to 3-4 different pumps that i couldn't tell the difference at least from the specs standpoint.

i figured it was time to give them a call and figure out my options along with other questions. After explaining my project to Meziere we did narrow down the options to the ones i was looking at. The difference between the pumps was primarily the size and the weight. To me the 1lb difference in the weight and an inch or so smaller did not justify the need to spend the extra 200-300 bucks. The one i decided to go with, which was the cheapest of the options, was actually their original model that it was a very robust model. The newer/lighter options are not as robust as the original due to the need to make them lighter and smaller as they are pretty chunky.

The option i did go for is the WP336S which is the 55gallon/minute pump with a current draw of 11-12A. Single inlet/outlet and remote mounted. It comes to roughly 200L/minute as opposed to the most powerful DC pump at 150L/minute. part of the discussion was if i would ever need to run the pump at 100%. The answer was “yes” because really the 55gpm is at a free flow state. with all the obstructions i would be lucky if it comes to half that. and of course that applies to all the pumps.

This pump is a BEAST !

1.5inch fittings as i am not planning to convert anything to AN fittings for the coolant hoses


more updates coming soon

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Gee thanks for making my update look lame Costas. Seriously, very cool, I've never really looking into an EWP, but having the PDM probably makes it easier.

TwinCharged RX7

iTrader: (14)

Hey Costas, I have these bmw Pierburgs going on 2 cars. Mainly going with these for reliability purposes. 1 car has the SBG blockoff, and another has an AN adapter plate (alternator is relocated to where the power steering pump was). Curious to your thoughts on the thermostat replacement flow plate. I’ve ready these are required in order to put resistance into the system, however, I don’t understand why that is the case when there are many cars that simply have AN lines straight off the block. Seems like the passages in the block should drive enough resistance.

here is something read when deciding on which model pump to get. Though it was helpful. http://www.swartzgarage.com/blog/2020/3/3/cooling-pump

regarding the 35amps, I need to test it, but I’m pretty sure they would not actually operate at 35 amps at the volume and pressure required for use.

I didn’t measure amps yet, but I tested one in a bucket of water at somewhere around 75 duty cycle and I can imagine that amount of flow going through the engine.

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

oh come on dude your build thread is sick! and you even race the car. its a purpose build car and i love the thread, yours along with very few others. Carlos' being one of them




Hey Collin,

that was my thought process to go with the Pierburg pumps. Reliability! There's great information on this link and i wish i came across it a few weeks ago when i was weighing my options.
The pierburg i was considering was the CWA400. According to the link you provided it says 35A. It does say that it has pwm signal so most likely the inrush current will be not far from that 35A.
But looking at this graph, CWA200 is not a pump i considered but i think it would be a good choice. i have seen other cars running 120-130L/minute pump and it seems that it is working fine.

I mean i do have the alternator/battery capacity to run the CWA400 but it wont be as simple as plugging it into the provision i have there from when i wired the car.
Truth be told though, the provision there was not for a water pump but rather for a laser height ride from izze racing. or a spare power output just in case i needed to connect anything else


But that was before my cooling issues and i think this will take precedence over the laser height ride

i currently do not have a thermostat given my overheating issues at the track. Cutting the thermostat and eliminating it was a quick remedy while John and I were at the track the second day and we were overheating badly. We saw a minor improvement but not enough to enjoy its potential
The oem FD thermostat (along with others from other cars) is a dual thermostat.
I am definitely mixing some hot and cold coolant with that small port. Whether it is enough to make any difference significant, i cant say.
If you eliminate the housing, with the manifold plate that goes there you are no longer mixing cold and hot coolant.
But whether that port is there to form some kind of resistance, i do not actually know. it might be there to help bleed the system? creates some pressure and then opens to let the air bubbles out ? possibly.

that manifold plate is definitely the way to go if you can relocate the alternator even though i am also considering making a plate that the tubes ( as opposed to AN fittings) that might somehow clear the belt that goes to the alternator. Not sure if this is possible.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I was just laughing because I posted about stick on elbow pads and 29 cent premix bottles, and a minute later you come in here with thermal imaging, lol. I need to step up the quality of my updates.

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

well thats kinda how i felt when Carlos started posting similar pictures. I have been wanting a thermal camera for years and i finally got one . Two if you consider the TOP-DON one lol

I got my FLIR C5 brand new sealed on ebay for less than 500$. Probably the best one we can buy. to get something better you need to drop some serious coin lol. There's option the Flir smart phone attachment for significantly less. it is an excellent diagnostic tool to have in your arsenal

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I have been wanting to add a cooling panel for a while now. i considered multiple options but there's always a catch with every option. On top of that shipping of this thing (regardless of which of the option i go with) can be a pain in the ***. And it doesnt fit in the luggage when i travel to take it with me but i won't make a special luggage to bring this. I like it but i dont like it that much. I have taken some really odd-ball stuff on the plane. bulky and heavy but i don't think this deserves this kind of treatment

I have always liked the knightsports style one but there are others that were built for the HKS V-mount. They were one off and i could never really find one, or i was never in cyprus long enough to make one by myself.
I have decided to make one but in order to speed things up i was going to use the Knightsports one. Since i am planning on chopping it up, i didnt want to go with a genuine knightsports so i got one from ebay from the guy in the Dominican Republic.


I dont know what anyone's experience with this guy but mine has been outstanding. immediate responses, immediate dispatch. he went above and beyond to make sure i was happy with my purchase.
I have asked a friend who specializes in fiberglass/carbon fiber work to mount it and cut it up so we can start with this as a base. He told me that the quality is very good.
So i have not seen it in person but i trust this guy's word that everything is fine!
It would have been nice if Eccentric would to sell me their cooling plate but that appears to be way more difficult than anticipated. Not sure why, i guess they don't need to sell their parts ? Who knows. I think it is the nicest one there is on the market that would actually work in my application. Oh well !

Anyhow.

The current situation with the GPS08 Module from AIM is mounted on the speaker grill. the GPS module is magnetic. I had a damaged speaker grill so i figured temporarily i will place the sensor there but i do not like my "solution" one bit.
I do have a second GPS smartycam module from my motorcycle days. Dimensionally it is identical to the GPS08 and the GPS09 from AIM.
So i started coming up with ideas how to make it happen.
Original design consisted of the following:

A steel base that the sensor will be magnetized to and a mount that fits as a replacement to the grill but uses the same speaker cover..



The idea was to make a cable management solution that this huge hole wouldnt show. Much like what you see on desks.

I cant say that it was a bad solution but its not a solution i am particularly proud of.
I wanted to check other options.

After several tries i have decided to upgrade the GPS08 module to a Roof Mounted and seriously upgraded GPS09.
The difference is that the roof mount is not a magnetic mount but rather bolts down





Sure this is a much better solution.
This filament i used is Nylon-PA6 /carbon fiber based. i was planning on using this as is but the finish did not come up as nice as i had hoped in terms of the finished color and the contrast between the oem speaker cover and this printed part is too far off.

I thought to try my luck and reverse engineer the speaker cover but seeing the dash there as is i feel that the OEM speaker cover should mount a little better than how it mounts.


So i think its time to get the Romer Arm and reverse engineer it properly !

More updates coming soon

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i think i will add the engine bay pic in post 283 to my website in the what not to do section on cooling. you are into considering some sort of high end coolant pump and you are sucking the exhaust from your intercooler directly into your motor?

job ONE is...

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I suppose you are talking about the intake filter? If you have a better solution given the surrounding parts i would love to hear it.

pm me if you want the picture in high quality for your website

mr2peak

While not 100% ideal, it's better than running a smaller intercooler core just to fit filter ducting. There's enough volume passing through the intercooler at speed that it doesn't matter much. If you're worried about temps below 20mph, maybe just have a dude spray down the intercooler with a garden pump sprayer?

Only place to fit ducting would be under the chassis rails with a hole chopped in the bumper, pretty low down and potentially dusty, and that path is usually filled with brake cooling ducts if that's your thing

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I am very well aware of my intake not being optimized.
but explain to me how job ONE is not fixing my overheating issues at the track ? starting from that garbage water pump from MazMart (which btw i heard that the last few years have been a disaster with those water pumps from a MazMart ex-employee) to a possibly clogged radiator. And you are going to pick the intake! sounds like you are only looking at the pictures and not reading the **** i type.
Sure, i can improve the intake from how it is now. It's not a job that i am dropping everything to do though.
But since you have brought it up in a way that i can't say i appreciate, let me make another post. Also, i am open to constructive criticism, but this was not it.

I have been looking for an airbox for some time. I have looked extensively into many options including eventuri, APR and many others so i can overcome the issue of the intake. I ended up getting a couple of different ones .
The one that looked most promising is the AMS for the VW Golf R.



so the idea was to flip it and mount it like shown below while it will be pulling air from inbetween the radiator and the intercooler.



This is not an easy task.
Also, dont forget that i am thousands of miles away from my car. I cant go in the garage for a couple of hours to brainstorm and come up with solutions and slowly make it happen.
I see my car a few days a year.

TwinCharged RX7

iTrader: (14)

I've been struggling to figure this out as well. I don't have vmount, but my chase bay tucked radiator, FMIC, and oil coolers take up all the real estate in the front and there isn't a place to pass an intake through to reach the front bumper.

Was thinking about a shield around the side of the air filter closest to the radiator, and then ducting it up to the hood to get clean air (have a scoot hood). Being VMount, I imagine that might be easier for you if you went with a hood made for vmounts to exhaust the hot air.

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

dont you worry Collin, you will also make it to Howards wall of shame… 🤣

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

after re-visiting this thread for more than an hour my head is spinning. i especially appreciate that most of what is on your FD is your own vision rather than checking the boxes of what the herd is currently doing.
truly an awesome build and of course still in process. further, i appreciate that you appreciate where the highest and best use is for the FD. on a road course. i note you understand that tire temps and pressures are everything as to getting a handle on... handling. such as your tire temp sensor. nice. of course there is a "but" coming

most of us have particular areas of our builds where we spend too much time.. of course we have areas where we spend too little time. and the FD has lots of "areas." my primary interest is in heat mitigation.

you run a 9280 around 80 pounds per minute. for a few years i ran a 9180 between 25 and 30 psi. mostly pump gas and around 1000 CC of meth. i have run 100% meth as AI since 2003. assuming your 9280 is roughly similar to my 9180 pre turbo charge air is over 400 F before the intercooler. i didn't catch what you are using for an IAT sensor but the only accurate system is a thermocouple. 4 readings per second and plus or minus 2 degrees F at 200 F.

i had three intercoolers constructed in 2021 and tested them for thermal efficiency and resistance. my original 2003 Spearco beat them all. thank you George Spears.

doing the IC math:

a really good IC removes 67% of the heat build from ambient. ambient is not the 90 F outside but the temp at the air filter. i have logged air temps all over the engine bay including just behind the IC. the air flowing thru your core when your right foot is on the floor on a road course is easily 145 F.

400 F (out of the turbo) minus 171 IAT / 400 F minus 145 (T at air filter) = 67%

moving a few things around my ambient is 105. lower ambient means lower turbo output temp and of course lower IATs.

should you retain your IC i would reclock the turbo output to 5 o'clock, fit a 90 degree Vibrant silicone hose pointed directly to the IC. i would redo the end tanks so the IC input tube accepted the turbo output. short straight to the core. i would redo the output side of the IC to the top to match the height of the piping towards the motor. if you were to use your thermal camera on the IC you would find a poor flow distribution. ideally any heat transfer core should have in and out at opposite locations to better spread the flow.

of course your true IATs are probably not 171 thanks to methanol which is probably taking 70 F out of the charge air.

FDs, due to Mazda's wonderful engineering, suffer from small frontal area... great for aero, not great for cooling.

here's my setup. i have outside air coming from between the frame rails and the radiator, a barrier over the radiator hose and a vertical seal to the hood. by no means perfect but i see 105 ambient and 80 F IAT at 575. i have switched to a G40-1150...



i should have worded my earlier post a bit differently and for that i apologize, certainly no disrespect intended..

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

Howard,
First of all thank you for taking the time to respond in this manner. It really means a lot.
Your response is a lot closer to your usual responses with your analysis and it is needless to say that your contribution to the forum and the rx7 community in general is well noted and appreciated. I also want to apologize for my response. I am trying to be diplomatic and not let any comments get to me but I don't always succeed. I generally don't have a filter (not the intake) in person as well as online.

I do know that there are things that are not to the level that they should be and the intake is not the only one. I am very open to constructive criticism and discussion especially if it comes from people who have tried things and that includes breaking things and rebuilding them better until perfection is achieved. This doesn't mean that I won't accept constructive criticism from other people as long there’s respect and discussion involved. And that really applies for everyone
I do design a lot of stuff and I manufacture most of them at home but there are things that I could have done better and ultimately I think this is the reason why the build threads are there. We share ideas, directly and indirectly even though you correctly said that I follow my own vision; but i do get some inspiration from other builds. And let’s face it, this forum has taught A LOT of things to people who were willing to sit down and read and try things. I can’t say that other forums are involved to the level that this forum has been.

I generally try to avoid posting stuff that I am not quite done yet, especially if I don't have a feasible plan at hand; much like the intake situation.
The intake plan has been in my head on and off for over a decade through all my iterations of this build. The car in its current state is technically a new build. There are a lot of things I need to work out first.
But what's an easy solution to sort out the intake right before the tune and the track days for a week stay ? A 90 degree 4" aluminum elbow, 2 silicone couplers and the largest filter I could find. Is this an ideal solution? Given the circumstances it was the best I could come up with.
Even with this system as is, the car is pushing almost 700whp. It's not an optimized solution but good enough for now.

The reason we stopped at 28psi (80lbm/min) as opposed to the 30psi I was running with the 8374 is because my motor was built back in 2012 in a plastic shed in my mother's yard.
The motor is all stock with the exception of ported exhaust and aftermarket apex seals. No dowels, no studs or any other machining/reinforcement. Also, don't let the "plastic shed" fool you. it has more equipment in there than probably any other automotive/performance shop in Cyprus. . I wanted to push for more and I gave the green light to J. Renna to experiment as much as he wanted even if that meant blowing the motor. Being the gentleman that John is, he just wanted to stop at 28psi. It was rather his compromise to meet me in the middle of my initial target at 30psi and his target at 26psi.

I have mentioned from the beginning that I do not like this intercooler kit for many reasons and the intake, radiator, fans/shroud is part of it.
But what's really out there ? The only way is to go custom but for now the current system is good enough as there are other priorities that take precedence.
When the car turns 25 years old, I will most likely bring it over and do it here. Part availability and selection is limited despite how heavily Cyprus was involved in motorsports.


I do try to squeeze every last second I have with the car when I am over there and try to do everything I can, prioritizing things that will let me enjoy the car at the track. I am not currently racing it as I don't live there.
I am designing and building stuff for pretty much the whole year round for me to go and try to put everything together in about 3 to 4 weeks out of the year. Even the radiator you sold me a few months back, it wasn't actually to be used on my car but rather to have a radiator here for my mock ups.

I will have to pull the datalogs to tell you the IATs I am seeing but I am not using a thermocouple.
I am using this instead https://lms-efi-llc.myshopify.com/co...x-7-direct-fit
My IATs are low but I have a feeling that the values may not be representative. I think the methanol may be a contributing factor to these inflated numbers
I have been debating whether I should re-do my engine harness to include additional sensors. It is not currently a top priority but it is something that I want to do.

mr2peak

If you solve the HKS intercooler intake issue without putting a massive hood scoop on the car please let me know

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I am thinking to replicate the HKS intercooler but to make it a little shorter on the intercooler inlet side so cant fit the filter in that spot and utilize all the remaining HKS v-mount components. It will probably cost over a grand for this, if not more.
I cant really see any other solution to make the HKS V-mount to work with a proper intake.

I have been trying to find other possible options for a completely new system but i can't seem to find anything that would work. The Greddy V-mount may be the all-around better option but i can't say i really like that option. If i am going to spend a few thousands to have the same results i might as well keep what i have.
I think a custom kit may be my next option.

mr2peak

The GReddy intercooler is much smaller, it's not meant for much over 400hp, even if people are making more using it. 600x300x100 size seems to be the "normal" size for most cars making 500+ regardless of chassis or engine type, and the Greddy is well under this. The HKS core is also a very good core (like the Greddy Spec R core in the V Mount kit), light weight and high fin density to shed heat soak, but it's also almost 50% larger than the Greddy. Is the extra area enough to make up for the intake temp difference? I would think so. Another concern you should have at 700+ is the intercooler inlet/outlet sizing, the Greddy and the HKS may be on the small side for what you are already accomplishing. Going to the Greddy seems like a step backwards honestly.

You could go to be sleek lights and possibly cutting up the headlight support structure for ducting, I don't see a way to duct around the intercooler otherwise? I don't trust ducting air from the normal brake duct location, too low to the ground with a much higher chance of dust and other debris thrown into the filter. Collecting the air from between the intercooler and radiator means you're also collecting all the leaves and whatever else happens to blow into the front of the car, and it's probably warm air already seeing as it's flowing past the cores, but worth measuring with a temp probe.

Nothing will beat using a thermocouple to measure the temps in different locations. Just remember to shield the sensor from radiator heat from the engine itself so you get true air temps.

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

yeah i dont think the greddy v-mount is really appropriate for my setup. it is indeed going backwards. What i was trying to say was that as an overall out of the box package i would say its pretty comparable to the HKS. In appearance sure the HKS appears superior with the much larger core etc but supposedly the HKS is also rated for 400 or so hp. I think @Copeland managed to burst the hks intercooler on a GTX42 turbo?

I think its time to go to the drawing board and make a custom one from scratch, including a much larger surface area radiator

mr2peak

I believe HKS rates it for "hard tuned" cars in the 400-700 range

Vinny Fab makes a nice kit as well, in between the Greddy and HKS size, looks like it's a bar and plate. Comes with intake ducting. Not cheap.

Your car is primarily a race car? Sleek lights and cut up the headlight bucket. Or, a big hood scoop, but getting it to scoop cool air and also not block the back of the intercool AND not look like *** all at the same time is a challenge

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

I have very poor lighting as it is so cutting up the bucket to ducting wont do it.

It is a street car that participates in modified street class when the race calendar dates align with my visitations and it is never really the case anymore. So i instead do track weekends .so it has some race car “abilities “ but it is not a race car. It does spend most of its time at the track though. The intention was to be an all-around car that it is comfortable to be on the street but also to be able to have fun at the track and clock some quick lap times.

i did check the vinniefab kit. It looks alright but you cant fit the condenser in there.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

both turbo and intercooler power estimates are for (newsflash) piston engines at the flywheel

an intercooler rated at 500 hp requires two haircuts to get to rotary rwhp...

you know the math, 500 X.75 = gets us to flywheel rotary power... 375, then we convert to rwhp... 375 X .85 = 319. and you are making 500 what? yikes.


there are really no proper intercoolers for our cars except front mounts which create almost fatal conditions for track cars. they also weigh a ton and locate in exactly the wrong place for a track car. front weight is evil and really good intercoolers are really heavy.

all our FDs are woefully underintercooled, some more than others. hello really high IATs, and hello methanol which takes close to 100 F out of my charge air and the same for the O.P.

the only reason the community isn't freaking out is because most think their IATs are fine. measure IATs w a thermocouple and you will be looking to source methanol.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Costas,
Years ago I made a CWR replica intercooler using the Ronin duct, and a Bell Intercoolers (Corky Bell) custom unit. I just chose the right size core and drew what I wanted in Illustrator, and they made it with end tanks to my spec. It was super nice and reasonably priced. The fin density was way more than the Spearco-based original I'd borrowed from Crispy. Ultimately sold it, but its a good resource to have made whatever you want with minimal effort. I Designed my own V-mount IC/Radiator at some point, and was going to have them and Ron Davis make them, but then the Greddy came out and it was just easier. Here's a post on it:

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...8/#post8919456


P

R-R-Rx7

iTrader: (24)

i am assuming this is addressed to me. i am running methanol and if i recall the nozzle is 1000cc . I had made 514ft/lb and 650 whp on a mustang dyno at 28psi on the efr9280 1.05 ewg. I can add a thermocouple since i have the tc-4 but i am only using 2 egts for now. I am curious to do a direct comparison between the 2 and see how far off it reads.

i want to maintain the vmount orientation for all the reasons you mentioned (as opposed going to an FMIC) but perhaps with a different kit; probably a custom one since what’s available out there is not really up to the task