Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i deleted what was a pretty good thread contentwise and was a toxic otherwise.

i plan to repost the thread's good content and thank most that participated.

going forward this section's discourse will be respectful, polite and objective.

howard coleman

rotorbrain

im going to say this. . . and howard can delete it when he wants. . . obviously, since he has that power.

this section will never get anything done if business is conducted in the manner that was presented in that thread. this applys to forum users and vendors alike. there are appropriate ways to point out certain aspects of any product made by any vendor.

if there is something you dont agree with, point it out. . . and ask if there is anything being done or even TO do about the problem. . . and even put in your idea of a fix, if you feel it could work.

dont just cast stones and make statements like, "your kit sucks. . . end of story." that sort of offense does not enable any vendor to come back with a response that could possibly win you over. statements like that are designed as a double-edged sword and cant be legitimized by anyone.

ive seen the vendors make blindsiding statements at the other vendors as well. this has to stop. it does nothing to promote business, and only contributes to a fire that has no business burning in a technical environment.

it is sickening to have to wade through all the mess in order to pick and choose which posts are worthwhile to read. if everyone will make a valid effort to bring real end to real issues, then this section will prosper indefinately.

something we all have to remember before our e-feelings get hurt is that the user that hurt those e-feelings is trying to say something to you using those same e-feelings. . . and at the end of the day. . . e-feelings are just as they sound. . . complete horse crap.

edit: sorry howard. . . i took an extended break from my computer before hitting the post button. delete away if you wish. . .

BNA_ELLIS

I hear you Rotorbrain!
One very interesting thing I have learnt concerning progessive controller etc
is that I can tune the car to what I may consider optimal a/f & egt but I never really know how much % of water/water & methanol/straight methanol at any given time i'm injecting.
If you have one size nozzle you at X psi of pump pressure (say 140 psi), you might get pulsing becaUse of excessive pressure in the system.
You upgrade to a bigger nozzle then you don't know what X pressure is because the bigger nozzle has less back pressure and you will no longer hit 140 psi.
I guess getting some kind of flow meter on my car with different size nozzles will make some interesting reading.

sdminus

Lets not gloat on this. Im sure it will be back. ]The data took a while to compile and real life R & D costs money.

There was some awesome info on that thread so lets all be patient. The discussion was virtually done anyway.

Scott

BNA_ELLIS

I've been running a progressive system for two years now more than most on here. I have no issues with lag on my setup. Lag is not something to do with a progressive system it's to do with the pump itself.
With a progressive system you are able to outune any lag issue you may face anyway.

BNA_ELLIS

My controller is set to activate the pump at 10psi boost pressure, the pump is set at 140 psi and when it recieves the signal from the controller it kicks in at 50% duty cycle i.e 70psi.
My controller is set to reach max flow at 25 psi boost pressure. I have tuned on the dyno and on the road with my water/meth injection switched off. I have then switched it on and at the exact psi I have my system to start injecting i.e 10psi of boost pressure my afr are a lot richer at the onset of the water/meth injection.
In the event that there was a half second delay as you suppose there is on progressive systems, then I would simply set my controller to come on earlier to compensate. So instead of 10psi boost pressure as the water/meth onset point to start injecting, I would set it at say 6psi or 8psi instead to compensate for it being half a second to slow.

Richard L

Rather trying to explain the mechanics of a system that lags. Here is a typical example when a guy trying to tune around the lag:

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?t=185062

BNA_ELLIS

Point taken but then, I can only speak for my own personal experience with my own setup. I have not had the same issue as in the above example.
I can't see why someone cannot alter a fuel map to compliment his AI
sufficently regardless of what gear he is in unless ther are limitations in the ecu, or limitations in ability to map the ecu.
Or am I missing some fudimental law of science in this?

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

i have posted this issue over on the turbobuick board. w 70 pages of threads we will see what they have to say on the subject.

howard coleman

Richard L

I am not sure if any engine management can page fuel maps acoording what gear is selected. No doubt it can be done.

I can only say not many people who bought a WI system is equipped with a self-tunable EMS. For those group of people, they will experience some from of afr lag if large % of alcohol is to replace fuel.

The problem exists, just need to find a way around it. Anyone object to this statement?

rotorbrain

so, as far as progressive systems go, is it not possible to start cycling the pump prior to opening the solenoid for injection? if youre injection start point is at 5.5psi (like howards), then can you start cycling the pump at 3-4psi. . . then when it begins injecting at 5.5psi there is no lag? seems as though it wouldnt be all too hard to setup something like this. its all boost relative anyways, so why not setup separate circuits for the two electrical points?

am i missing something there? is this not possible? what characteristics make it impossible, if so?

this is all subjective, of course. we are still working around the argument as to whether all this is even needed. howards explanation as to why it isnt needed makes more sense to me. we are injecting these additives further upstream than even our stock injector locations. if this were in a direct injection application. . . i could definately see the argument being of ultimate validity.

sdminus

does anybody have a datalog they can share which we can make a chart from. It just needs to show rpm, boost, afr. the table could be setup at 10 m/s intervals at what ever boost pressure the system is set to switch on. This would end the paticular part of the discussion and would also show various systems providing we had enough takers.

anybody up for this in the name of science ( this is a bit like mythbusters LOL )

Rotorbrain. I cant see no wrong in doing as you suggest and starting early as long as the system starts up the same in any conditions. eg
low to high pull
dip in and out of boost
etc etc !

Scott

Richard L

I think the concern is not the starting point, easily solved by what Howard and your suggested. The system is not injecting the same amount of alcohol in each gear through the boost and RPM. (ignore RPM those boost-based systems do not care about RPM).

For that very reason, the lag problem has showned up on the link I posted earlier.

It may not matter that much if you are not injecting a large amount of alcohol to fuel percentage.

The discussion is interesting in the engineering term but completely waste of time if small details are out set aside and ignored, just tune around it. A true progressive system should not be able to operate effective on its own.

The title should say...

"How does one tune around a system that cannot deliver consistently over engine's operating dynamics"

I am sure it will make a very interesting discussion.

sdminus

I sadly dont have any decent logs with afr on to help in this. Howeva i understand where you are shooting from here.

So if
I came slowly onto boost from low rpm, the device would switch on and the pump would start to cycle. The afrs would richen up ( within the second )in a short space of time

I came back into boost on a short stab on a comprimise esse bend after the first apex up to entry to the 2nd phase. Would the system be able to deliver fluid to the engine in exactly the same ratio ( making up the AFR's ). if not i would have an issue


Scott

talking hypothetically about no system. only the one in my head

rotorbrain

i see now. basing the injection period on boost rather than load/rpm is what makes the system inadequate to the demands of a gear change. . . since load changes with each gear.

howard, have you (and i know this is hard due to the nature of the gearing) run logs in other gears to see what injection is like in every gear rather than only in 3rd or 4th. . . or whichever gear youve been logging in? id be curious to see what your system does in that regard. . . or if brian could do this. . . as i know your car is currently down.

edit: i do realize what the car would do traction-wise in this situation. . . and i know how hard it would be to catch a decent log during this. . . basically, what im getting at is that it sure would be nice to see how the progressive controllers log in differing load situations.

sdminus

Rotorbrain. I already did this in the previous thread..

BNA_ELLIS

Rich I understand you better now.
I think it's less of an issue in my setup because of how much i'm injecting, plus on my setup I cannot hit anywhere near full boost in 1st gear either.
The load and rpm cells on my ecu when accelerating is quite different in 2nd gear compared to 3rd gear. So it's less of an issue on my car due to my setup and how laggy my acr is, but I can appreciate how this can be an issue on a different application than mine.

rotorbrain

yeah, i think my biggest problem seems to be that my computer isnt capable of viewing those pictures. . . and i cant watch videos, and the such. cant download software to it since its a DoD computer. . . and im w/o home internet usage at the moment. sucks to be me right now. . .

sdminus

let us know how you can view it and maybe we can sort it..

sdminus

time base........AI flow......boost.....tpsv
226.5...............1.6V ..........48..........4.0
226.6...............1.6V ..........92 ..........4.5
227..................1.7V ........104 ...........4.5
227.2............... 1.8v........105............4.5
227.5.................1.5.........103............4 .4
227.7.................1.9v ......105............4.5
228....................1.6v ......105 ............4.5
228.2.................1.7V........16.............. 2.2
228.5.................1.5v........-571........ 0.820
228.7.................1.2V ........28 ...........3.5


0.6v = 0 cc of flow
2.5v = 200cc of flow

this is just one small segment sliced up

sdminus

Howeva .. these are a pain in the *** to type out and im sure they will be in howards re jigged thread

Scott

rotorbrain

i can see the issue. im just gonna have to get on another computer so i can see the videos. so, all this is why youre going with the HSV setup from aquamist? i think that is the optimum option when tuning with a rotary, personally. still dont know which way ill go. . . itll be based on money, though. . . im sure.

sdminus

Just need to make sure you can get the best you can for the money you spend.

Scott

PimpyHand

I think a prepresurized system is the way to go. Because it deals with the problems of a on demand system rather nicely. As far as I know AM is the only one making such systems.

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

here's part of the log from my last run of the season... oct 30. it was a roll-on 3rd gear pull w boost as high as 18.7 psi. the clutch started to slip and i got out of it.
afrs were in the 11s.

given the delivery from my two t04s (around 80 pounds per minute at 17-18 psi, my injector duty approx 70% (850 1600) and the amount of methanol, over 1000 cc/min, as well as shredding a 400 ft pound capacity clutch my guess is i was making over 500 rwhp on this run.

note that my AFRs do not get overly rich as i get out of the throttle. my egts also do not dive. this indicates to me that there isn't a major run-on issue.

do i think that a properly designed IDC based AI system w a HSV would work even better than what i run? yes i think so. i have posted to this effect many times and look forward to the day when we will have actual FD data on such a system.

mine looks pretty good at the moment though. how 'bout 500 hp and 1100 F preturbo egts w almost no knock?

howard coleman