coupe-r

Hi there, I'm thinking about buying a Greddy Vmount setup for my Single turbo street ported FD, Borg SX-E 362-1.0 A/R. Looking to make around 450hp once I can cool the IAT enough. (currently 385hp at 16psi with insane hot IAT)
This will be a street/fun/cruise car not a race car.
I don't want a vented bonnet either (stock look)

I talked to one single turbo FD owner here in NZ with the Greddy setup and he said the Greddy IC was pretty useless, far too hot IATs on the dyno and barely keeping up on some high boost pulls on the track.

Can anyone with a Fast acting IAT and a greddy vmount please comment on their IAT increase above ambient? Ideally someone pushing some decent HP and boost through a smaller SX-E turbo (S362 etc) 16-20psi area 400-500hp.
For example, a 2000rpm to redline 3rd gear pull? (or 4th if you are keen haha) What is the start IAT and finish IAT?

If its not going to do the job, then we will make our own setup.
Cheers anyone that can give feedback

FDAUTO

iTrader: (4)

On my own car with an all stock motor, same turbo at 14psi I'm making 408whp on a power fc. You might want to revisit that tune.

the thing about air to air coolers is you need air passing over it to cool the air running through it. In addition to that, with a v mount on a non vented hood, the hot air just has no where to go. The greddy vmount sits horizontal so air absolutely HAS to be ducted to it.

Also, your iat can be a little uncontrollable if your turbo is just pushing hot air. Your port, turbo and boost level should have you in the 400s easily. You may have an underlying issue causing not only the low power but also the high iat.

My car is v mounted but i am using a greddy front mount in v mount configuration with very little ducting and a vented hood. My iat is always within 3-5 degrees C of ambient.

Water injection may be your bandaid here. If you have a way of logging egt, it may shed some light on the situation

coupe-r

Thanks for your reply.
The reason for the low power is CRAZY high IATs is because stock intercooler and SUPER lazy timing (on purpose) It will make over 400 EASILY once it has a decent IAT. (we use Dynapack same as you just the bigger pods)
(yes I'm crazy and tried a dyno run with the stock intercooler, IAT went from 38C at the start to 78C at the end of the run in 4th gear 16-17psi at 8-9 degrees timing) Poor 13B eh.
Turned it way back down to 12 psi until I figure out what direction to go with cooling. Its not getting driven until intercooler is sorted.

Yes and no about the vented bonnet, the vented bonnet certainly is ideal. Is it REQUIRED to work? I have my doubts, air will come up and through it, then hit the top of the bonnet and flow out the tunnel (just like it would on a SMIC)
The engine bay is far from sealed and the intercooler in a v configuration isn't hard up on the bonnet either?

Vented is IDEAL for sure.

Is that 3-5 C after a HARD full boost pull, or just cruising along under no load at 100kph (60mph)
I doubt its within 3C of ambient after a full 3rd gear 14psi pull, also you have a fast IAT right?

FDAUTO

iTrader: (4)

whoa... on a stock intercooler is wild. ANY intercooler you install will effectively "fix" your iat situation. i made the assumption you were not using the stock intercooler since theres no way anyone would do that... i was wrong lol

yes my air temps are as described pre, during and post pull. even running through the gears. i have a fast iat (triumph) in the stock location.

ZE Power MX6

iTrader: (157)

I’m running the twins @14psi, on a warm day like low to mid 80s, on ramp 3rd and 4th gear pull will usually bring the IAT up a few degrees from low 30s to mid 30s. It’ll come back down fairly quickly, and this is without AI.

coupe-r

hahah I'm a nutter eh,fair enough. It's cause this was very much a 'lets see if the car runs' situation. Plus I have dyno use so thought meh why not, it actually handles about 12-14psi (still a 25-30C increase which is nuts) but any higher boost is just INSANE IAT.
For those that are interested there was ZERO knock even with the 38-78C IAT pull (thats a 40C intake increase in 4th gear 2000-7800 pull on the dyno. 10.8-11:1 area on stock coils with no booster, ign is RIGHT on the limit with some slight misfires if boost goes higher than 17psi) Apexi Power FC so still stock coils and wasted leading spark (I have a HKS twin power to fit, but I prob should just throw a modern ecu at it)

Wow, I'm surprised you only have a 3C increase during a pull. Thats Crazy good, setup must be working well, try more boost :P

So this is a greddy vmount setup and a fast IAT?

mr2peak

Greddy says their intercooler is rated for ~400hp. It is 410x255x115mm

HKS rates theirs for 700hp. It is 600x255x103mm, almost 50% larger surface area vs the Greddy.

If you want to stay around 400hp on a street car, the Greddy is a decent option that comes with lots of optional fitting kits and good ducting, making it a very easy bolt in for twins or smaller single setups. It’s also very readily available with lots of vendors to choose from and opportunities to find it on discount.

If you want to go over 400, you’ll want something larger. While many people make good power on the Greddy setup, it is not ideal according to Greddy themselves. If you’re starting from scratch, go for a properly sized core.

Greddy is the smallest v mount available. Knightsport, Vinny Fab, HKS, RE-Amemia all use larger cores.

If you look up core size vs power rating, remember they are rated at crank power, and rotaries need 25% more air vs piston engines. So you need to look at 600hp piston rated intercoolers for a 400whp rotary setup.

Your local ambient temps are also important. Hotter weather means all your cooling is less effective. What works in one climate might not work in another.

Anecdotally, I’ve never heard of a rotary owner moving to a smaller core. It seems to be one of those situations where larger is just better because the front of the car has limited space, and filling up that space happens before the core size becomes detrimental.

If anyone had actual core efficiency data, please post it up

coupe-r

I suspect it won't cut it either, which is why I'm after real world feedback also. Ducting and intercooler build and type come into it, but nothing beats real feedback.
Greddy japan list the core size at L400/h266/W100. Where do they state the HP limits? However around 400hp for a rotary sounds about right for that core size, I notice its a tube and fin cooler also.

I don't like the HKS kit due to the fans getting mounted FAR too low, also the entire core blocking off any possibility of cold Intake air for the turbo. Vinny fab is CRAZY money here for what you get plus you can't fit A/C (not without lots of custom work and whats point in paying for the kit if you need to custom plenty of it afterwards) can't fit undertray either (not that ya really need it) .Also spal fans required vs the nice shrouded and multispeed OEM fans etc)

My other idea is to just make a large SMIC with a custom duct or buy the radiator only Greddy kit and make a bigger and better ducted IC core ourselves.

mr2peak

Lots of people run it. You'll likely be fine. What sort of climate do you live in?

HKS is fine with stock fans as long as it's a stock thickness radiator. I have a thicker dual flow radiator but we raised the rear of the radiator to lift the fans up slightly. We did re-work the pipes to eliminate an air pocket and modified my alloy radiator for the new pipe work. It's under $1,500 now with the exchange rate, but that doesn't include a radiator. If you can make your own that might be best.

A properly sized core is more important than a cold air intake but obviously both are preferred. It's all a balance. If you cut 100mm off the core length to fit a 4 inch pipe for a filter, that's 100mm of cooling you lose. That missing 100mm might shed more heat than that small increase in air intake temps from having the filter behind the intercooler. You won't be making max power sitting still, sitting on the dyno is likely the only time this happens. There's a lot of airflow past the cores at speed the increase in air temp is marginal when the car is moving.

255vs266 core size (my mistake) is just over 4% surface area difference. Vs gaining almost 50% with the HKS/others vs Greddy.

It sounds like you'd be happier making something.

coupe-r

I live in New Zealand (25-28C being the norm in summer) Agreed there is a balance with intake air vs core size, I’d rather cut the core down slightly so I can make an intake air box. But yeh that greddy core is on the smaller side. 450x300x100 woulda been better.

Interesting about the HKS and the fans. So I take it you can’t fit the factory undertray with the HKS kit?

I just don’t want to buy the full greddy kit, then find intake temps are rubbish and have to fab up our own core and ducting to sort it.

Someone must have real world data

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

It may be down to the core type rather than physical dimensions. The only place its really lacking dimensionally is the length, which is a diminishing return anyway. A denser core with different fin type might make a difference.

ZE Power MX6

iTrader: (157)

That's correct.

mr2peak

Larger core with less fin density generally flows better than a denser smaller core.

Larger is better until it impacts throttle response or takes away from other needed cooling. I haven’t heard of anyone finding that limit on an FD

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

Well, for instance, I made a replica of a CWR stock mount intercooler, after having borrowed an original. The original used a Spearco core, whereas mine used a Bell core, that for the same size, had more tube rows and denser external fins, and it cooled noticeably better.

And of course, more surface area is better but you'll notice that the majority of the heat shedding happens in the first half of the core, so unless your core is way undersized to begin with, another inch of length isn't going to make a huge difference. All of these multiple factors work in balance with one another of course.

mr2peak

An inch isn't much, but most V mounts use a 600mm core vs the greedy 410mm, that's almost 8 inches of core length. That's a much higher capacity any way you look at it. Up to you if you need that.

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

I took a look under my hood (with GReddy v-mount), and there's MAYBE 1" to the drivers side, and 2" to the passenger side. 8" would preclude much of an intake or space for a good sized filter that gets plenty of fresh air, which I would not sacrifice for a longer IC.

mr2peak

There is no space for a cold air intake with most V mount kits, the greddy is much smaller and allows this. There's so much air passing through the core and around the engine bay, it doesn't affect temps as much as you might think, especially with 50% more intercooler to bring it back to ambient. In order for a smaller core to make sense, the warmer intake location would need to be responsible for 33%+ of the overall temp increase. Do you think the hot air intake location is +80f warmer over ambient temp at speed, with air flowing through the core at 50-100mph?

coupe-r

Thanks, so on stock twins its increasing 5C from 30C-35C for a 3-4th gear short pull on a 26C day.

I hear what you are saying, but you would also need to measure the temp of air passing out the back of the cooler into the intake. Id say you can run a smaller core like a vinny fab, have cooler intake charge and the overall result would prob be the same as the HKS at the power level I am shooting for 450hp SXE-362 18-20psi.
Now if you were making 600-750HP on a 13B then maybe there would be a cross over point where the HKS wins. I just kinda don't like the look of an intake filter hanging over the back of a core. Against my morals hahaha.

The whole reason for making this thread was a guy with the same turbo (and with a vented hood) said he had intake temp problems on the dyno and also at the track with the greddy. I asked the tuner what he thought, he said I'd be disappointed with the Greddy and to go Vinny fab.
NOTE: vinny fab is a bar and plate core at 450x300x100 vs Greddy 400x266x100 tube and fin. (20% ish difference..)

So id say the MAIN reason for the vinny fab claims of SO Much better would be cooler style and better ducting. (the ducting is MUCH more sealed on the vinny fab)

Technically apples for apples construction the tube and fin would suit a vmount better in a street car i'd say. But they are more expensive to make and harder to find core options for.

Reason for me not going vinny fab is the 5k NZD price tag (greddy is $3200 landed here), also the massive wait for re-releasing them (been waiting since last year) also no way to mount A/C without lots more custom work.

Another option is just run a SMIC custom cooler and duct, then leave the radiator as is (my stock rad seems to cool VERY well, 85C temps on a 28C day)
if the SMIC doesn't work then I could add water meth. Personally i'd rather just run a vmount IF its going to work and not have the hassle of water meth.

You can fit a bigger core if you use up more of the battery space and more of the intake space with single turbo (twins would be more difficult) also the height at 266mm vs 300mm ish for other vmounts

Howard Coleman

iTrader: (6)

the above log was generated by my setup in 2003. at that time i was running two Garrett TO4E 44 pound turbos on 93 pump and 1000 CC of 100% methanol. while only to 6400 and around 20 psi/ 475 approx rwhp the log was a shocker. you are looking at the IATs. or IAT since it is almost all ONE NUMBER. after realizing this absurdity i had a real temperature sensor on my car in less than a month.

an "air" thermocouple.

https://thesensorconnection.com/prod...rcharger?v=567


there really shouldn't be any conversation re IATs, intercoolers until actual IATs are in the mix. you are thinking you have a "Fast" thermistor... and your air temps are under control. around 70 or less.

no.

air coming out of your compressor when your right foot is on the floor has a 3 or 4 in front of a couple of other digits.

as in 300+ or 400+.F

here is a typical log of mine from Oct 7 2023:



8006 rpm
30.3 psi
346 F out of the turbo
163 psi AI pressure
124 F into the motor

Garrett G40-1105 700+ rotary rwhp capable but in this case squarely in the middle of the SEVENTY EIGHT % Efficiency Island. turbo outflow temp is primarily a function of efficiency not the flow level. for instance if you run the OE turbos to 14 psi they will easily produce outlet temps better than 400 F as the compressor wheel cavitates. the physics is no different than rubbing your hands together. cavitation equals huge temp spike.

what can we expect from our intercooler?

first, know that due to the minimized frontal area (a very good thing)..... unless we run a front mount ALL FD intercooler options are by necessity/space undersized.

that said, meet George Spears. he was an aircraft engineer that designed the cores for many WW2 fighters. after the war he started Spearco. intercoolers for automotive/racing app. George hung it up a while ago and his company was sold to Turbonetics. Turbonetics was acquired by a multiline company and ditched the intercooler division. i have a Spearco intercooler. bought it is 2003. the general design (stock location) was invented by a brilliant forum member/ now deceased/ Kevin T Wyum. later marketed by M2 and currently by Pettit as "Coolcharge."

core efficiency of course is important. you can have similar sized cores that vary 50% as far as efficiency. in 2021 i ordered 3 exactly similar intercooler cores and tested them for pressure drop and heat rejection... they may look the same but they aren't. my genuine Spearco beat them all for heat transfer and flow efficacy.

what to expect from a good intercooler?

i have two technical manuals written by George Spears...

factoring CFM and core cooling airflow a very good intercooler can remove up to 55% of the heat rise from ambient. so we are going to do the math (of course)

ambient air temp (not outside engine bay but measured at the air filter) mine is NOT near the IC exhaust stream. my ambient is 105 F. let's use 320 F out of the turbo

320 - 105 = 215 F rise X .55 = 118 F IC heat transfer/reduction
215 - 118 = 97 F additional net heat from compression
105 + 97 = 202 F IAT assuming an optimal efficiency which we don't have.

my accurate IAT, measured by a thermocouple ( 4 data points per second, less than 2 degree +/- at 200) was 124 F. thank you AI and my system design.

but your fast sensor shows 75 F.

just like my dyno run was 36 C/97 F from 2400 to 6400.

no movement while air out of the compressor almost tripled.

please note that it doesn't take a high hp turbo to generate 300 to 450 F outflow temps. outflow temps are a function of efficiency. OE turbos overdriven can easily generate 400 F. take another look at my log. note the inexorable climb of compressor outflow temps... then note how IATs are flat as a billiard table.

we just aren't going to find huge gains in intercoolers but w efficient turbos and AI we can stay out of trouble.

very inexpensive thermocouple amps can be found on the net and the air thermocouple probe is under $60. collapsed corner seal springs are around $5000.

what's your IAT?

coupe-r

Thanks for your comments Howard. I agree with everything you have said which is why I specified the turbo used and boost pressure to help generate some chat.I believe I should have been roughly around 74-72% efficiency with the power and boost I was at on the SX-E 362.
(peak of 385hp at 16.4psi @7000rpm with 78C IAT haha)
Ideally what I am after is ACTUAL real world data from someone with a similar or same turbo and boost level 16-20psi with the Greddy vmount. Agreed on core design and as you know, ducting plays a HUGE role here also. Can't just chuck something in the engine bay and expect it to perform well.

I'm trying to avoid Water meth injection if I can, but if thats not possible then so be it.

I have the triumph IAT sensor which from my testing is PLENTY fast enough to capture the real temp charge into the inlet manifold? Its super fast and performs like many of the other open element designs on Link/Haltech cars that I tune. (apart from its lacking a perforated shield around the resistor which I might 3D print from ABS and epoxy on)

So you are saying you have tested a FAST IAT (Triumph or similar open element design) vs your third party thermo couple in the same location and you found it either to be faster and/or more accurate? I'm not seeing a response time issue here with mine, I saw a 16C change in temps over 2.5 seconds with this sensor, thats 6.4C change a SECOND logged. Probably better if it had a Link ECU like you (I'm using power FC at the moment) Remember that's the CHANGE over time, the actual data points are probably 4 a sec like your sensor. At the end of the day they are pretty simple electronically.

So while I understand your math I'm not understanding why you logged almost no change with your fast IAT in the stock location back in 2003? Your log from 2003 looks more like the factory IAT sensor?

Sorry If I'm misunderstanding you.
Appreciate the feedback

ptrhahn

iTrader: (9)

What "so much air?" You mean hot engine compartment air? No, I do not think that sucking hot air to gain a couple inches of intercooler width is an appropriate tradeoff, but you do you.

mr2peak

So Much Air. Frontal area x speed. The engine bay isn't a sealed chamber. Air is rushing through the cores, around the engine and out the trans tunnel and sides of the car. The volume of air passing through is large, the actual temperature of the air post-core isn't as high as you'd think, and the faster you go the cooler this air is. If you want a burn-out machine of a dyno queen, then a cold air intake becomes much more important.

I have an re-amemiya vented hood and 99 spec bumper that's been cut a bit for more airflow. So the amount of air passing through my engine bay is significantly more than you'd see with an early bumper and stock hood. If I had stock bodywork, a cold air intake would be more important. I'd like to make a custom hood in the future, add a non-sealed scoop pointed at the filter. I'm out of space at the front of the car now, unless I chop up the headlight bucket or the frame behind the bumper lights. I don't want to chop the car up any more.

I'm not saying a cold air intake is bad, I'm saying sometimes the reality of finding space to fit everything means you have to make a judgement call. I wouldn't mind losing 2" off the core length for space to make a large oval cold air duct, but I can't find a suitable core for that. You can't easily chop the end off a tube and fin core and make it slightly shorter.

coupe-r

@IRPerformance @JP3 Motorsports Any comment from you guys running Greddy Vmounts with big power single turbos? Whats the intake temp increase like from one dyno pull or street pull?
I'm waiting to pull the trigger on a greddy vmount but worried about the intercooler not being big/efficient enough for my needs, so deciding if I make a slightly bigger cooler myself using a quality core.

JP3 Motorsports

We don't have any work on the dyno, so can't chime in from that perspective. I would say one needs to look at the full picture of air and heat management:

-Vmount on dyno without proper fan or airflow WILL heatsoak
-Turbo placement with turbine right next to the LIM and no or minimal use of blankets/shields. This is common with many setups and this plays a huge role in heat soaking that LIM and likely the UIM.
-Intake setup on single turbo using greddy vmount. Theres varying setups here too. If not properly routed or shielding, intake can be drawing hotter air since intakes are above the rad.

JP3

coupe-r

Yes I agree with all of those comments, but ANY data is better than no data. Even street data is good as dyno is WORST case scenario.
So far I only have one example above of someone with stock twins, and it increased 5C from 30C-35C on a 26C day from a short 3rd and 4th pull on the street.

Basically my question is, WILL the Greddy front mount do the job or am I pissing in the wind here? Its' kinda sounding like I'll just have to try it and report back here with REAL data if I don't get anything soonish.

Yes my down pipe is wrapped, turbo has a beanie, lower and upper will be shielded BUT the cast stainless manifold is not wrapped.